On 10/10/2018 at 2:06 PM, Browork said:thank you all for the answers! as i thought the pilot can attack at range 0 and that's because of the secondary weapons rules.
about the other question btw? Do you think M.R. ability could influence the 0-1 range of the second attack made by cluster missiles?
Certainly he can
EDIT: Certainly he cannot
Edited by nexttwelveexits4 minutes ago, Browork said:thank you all for the answers! as i thought the pilot can attack at range 0 and that's because of the secondary weapons rules.
about the other question btw? Do you think M.R. ability could influence the 0-1 range of the second attack made by cluster missiles?
I still don't think he can fire at range 0 with munitions that end up with a range 0 on them. If I'm right he wouldn't be able to make the cluster missile bonus attack at range zero either. If I'm wrong and he can fire those munitions at range zero he can also make the additional attack from cluster missiles at range zero.
About the second cluster attack, I'm more interested if he can swap the range to 1-2 rather than 0, it would give a wider range of threat (providing the second ship is within fire ark and at range 0-3 of M.R. as per "bonus attack rules")
14 minutes ago, Browork said:About the second cluster attack, I'm more interested if he can swap the range to 1-2 rather than 0, it would give a wider range of threat (providing the second ship is within fire ark and at range 0-3 of M.R. as per "bonus attack rules")
His ability kicks in when he attacks and the cluster missile allows him to take a second, bonus, attack. So on one hand it seems like Rhymer chooses for how he modifies the range for each attack but the RR states "A few special weapons provide a bonus attack using the same weapon. While performing this type of bonus attack, the same arc requirements, range requirements, and cost requirements are followed unless stated otherwise." which suggests maybe you're locked into the range requirement from the first attack. The more I look into this for you the more I'm not sure.
If a rule in this guide contradicts the Rulebook, the rule in this guide takes precedence.
If the ability of a card conflicts with the rules in this guide, the card ability takes precedence.
If a card ability uses the word "cannot," that effect is absolute and cannot be overridden by other effects.
During an attack or while otherwise resolving an effect involving dice, each die cannot be rerolled more than once.
Rhymer: "While you perform a (Torpedo) or (Missile) attack, you may increase or decrease the range requirement by 1, to a limit of 0-3."
The ruling you were referring to involved shooting at a target touching the attacking ship's base with part of the defending ship still being in arc at range 1. Per that ruling the defending ship is treated as being at range 0 so, aside from specific card abilities like Rhymer's that change this, cannot be shot at by any weapon since all weapons in the game have a minimum range of either 1 or 2...
there is 100% absolutely NO REASON for his card to specify R0-3 unless it allowed R0 attacks.
There are several cards that do not say R0, the Fang Fighter being a good example (if you can R0 attack it, it gets no ship ability or Fenn's ability). Like has been pointed out several times, upgrades/pilot cards overrule the main rules when there is a conflict.
The initial problem was the standard weapon is R1-3, but due to the "in arc" thing it was possible to have a ship touching you (thus, R0) but not be at R0 in the firing arc. Thats what this clarification was about.
Cluster's second attack is the same attack as the first, with the exception of the lock requirement being waived. Other than that its a normal missile attack, so Rhymer's ability would affect it since theres no special case here about "doesnt apply to bonus attacks" or something.
4 minutes ago, Vineheart01 said:there is 100% absolutely NO REASON for his card to specify R0-3 unless it allowed R0 attacks.
Sure there is, this is a game that is going to continue to expand with new ships, pilots, and upgrades coming out regularly; letting it work with an, as yet unreleased, card is a great reason to specify range 0.
@MockingBird ME I think you should give this one up. We're two full pages into the thread and not a single person agrees with you.
Rhymer says 0-3 on his card.
Card abilities override the Rules Reference. So even if the rules say you can't fire at 0 Rhymer says on his card that he can, so he can.
The "cannot overrules can" ONLY applies to rules at the same level. A "Can" on a card overrules a "Can't" in the rules. For instance in v1 (that had the same stipulation): Tycho could perform actions while stressed because the "can" on his card overruled the can't in the rules.
Sorry if you don't like it, but the rules really are crystsl clear on this one.
Thank you all again for the answers!
To sum up M.R. works this way:
- he can attack ships at range 0 because of his ability
- he can influence the range of the second cluster attack because of his ability. The enemy ship must be at range 0-1 from the defender, but can be at range 0-3 of Rhymer when checking the "range" condition as per bonus attack rules.
Am I missing something?
9 hours ago, sharrrp said:@MockingBird ME I think you should give this one up. We're two full pages into the thread and not a single person agrees with you.
Rhymer says 0-3 on his card.
Card abilities override the Rules Reference. So even if the rules say you can't fire at 0 Rhymer says on his card that he can, so he can.
Short answer here: no. I may be wrong, and that's fine, but just because I'm in the minority does not mean I'm going to change my mind for you without evidence I think supports the conclusion. Rhymer does say "0-3" on his card and the "legal attack range" bit in the special weapons section may be intended to supersede the update we were given saying "you can not attack a ship at range 0" but we don't know that for sure, especially with the later statement coming in a clarification post from FFG with that addition that it was left out of the RR in error. We'll have to wait to see how they actually print it in the RR but I do not believe it is clear and as his card does not explicitly say he can attack at range zero it doesn't override any cannot attack at range zero rules, the question is about how range zero on a special weapon interacts with the cannot attack at range zero rule and I am sticking with it's not clear.
3 hours ago, Browork said:Thank you all again for the answers!
To sum up M.R. works this way:
- he can attack ships at range 0 because of his ability
- he can influence the range of the second cluster attack because of his ability. The enemy ship must be at range 0-1 from the defender, but can be at range 0-3 of Rhymer when checking the "range" condition as per bonus attack rules.Am I missing something?
That appears to be the majority opinion, in a friendly game right now I'd let you play it that way because having fun playing a game is more important that arguing over the rules but I believe in doing so you would breaking the rules.
On 10/10/2018 at 1:29 PM, MockingBird ME said:Sure there is, this is a game that is going to continue to expand with new ships, pilots, and upgrades coming out regularly; letting it work with an, as yet unreleased, card is a great reason to specify range 0.
Are there any other cards out right now with verbiage that otherwise wouldn't make sense and is solely there for "future proofing"?
Rules on cards override the rules reference. The rules reference doesn't say anything about range 1-3 for special weapons attacks, it only says special weapons have different requirements. Rhymer changes those requirements.
On 10/11/2018 at 5:08 AM, MockingBird ME said:I'm going to change my mind for you without evidence I think supports the conclusion. Rhymer does say "0-3" on his card.
If you don't think the fact it says 0 right on the card constitutes evidence he works at 0 I really don't know what else to say.
17 hours ago, sharrrp said:If  you don't think the fact it says 0 right on the card constitutes evidence he works at 0 I really don't know what else to say.
Let's say it together: Dear FFG please use concise language in your Rules Reference so as to prevent threads like these from happening, thanks!
On 10/12/2018 at 4:47 PM, Skitchx said:Are there any other cards out right now with verbiage that otherwise wouldn't make sense and is solely there for "future proofing"?
Rules on cards override the rules reference. The rules reference doesn't say anything about range 1-3 for special weapons attacks, it only says special weapons have different requirements. Rhymer changes those requirements.
darth maul
Darth maul doesnt conflict with any rules with his future proofing.
There isnt any rules at ALL about light/dark powers atm, let alone any to use.
Oh man, reading this thread made me realize I misunderstood the second question, even after it was posted twice:
After Rhymer resolves the first cluster missile, can he target a second ship at range 2 of the defender ? Say, with the first target at range 1, and the second at range 3?
And holy poop, I don't know. My first instinct is to say no, but reading the cards... he affects the "range requirement," and the cluster missile's ability requires a certain range between the targets...
EDIT keep reading for the real answer friends
Edited by nexttwelveexits24 minutes ago, nexttwelveexits said:Oh man, reading this thread made me realize I misunderstood the second question, even after it was posted twice:
After Rhymer resolves the first cluster missile, can he target a second ship at range 2 of the defender ? Say, with the first target at range 1, and the second at range 3?
And holy poop, I don't know. My first instinct is to say no, but reading the cards... he affects the "range requirement," and the cluster missile's ability requires a certain range between the targets...
NO. That isn't the range requirement on a secondary weapon.
2 minutes ago, thespaceinvader said:NO. That isn't the range requirement on a secondary weapon.
OK, you're definitely right. I read the cards but forgot to read the rules (always a mistake), and they do in fact spell out that the range requirement is the specific white number printed on the specific place on the card.
So I'll leave my previous responses (which were incorrect) for posterity so that people may learn from my example and actually pay attention to things
hmm i misread that too lol.
Yeah he wouldnt affect the splitshot range, all he'd affect is "legal range for the attack" since being in R1 of the first attacked ship but beyond R3 of the attacker still denies you the bonus attack (as you have to follow rules of the attack, the only exception given is the lock requirement is waived). Rhymer would prevent that problem atleast.
Holy smokes how on earth is this a debate... the card says (0-3) how can anyone possibly argue that he can't attack with a weapon at range 0 when the card explicitly says 0?
Most of the time I can see the other side of an argument but this time? wow.
There is nothing in the rules that say you can't attack at range 0.
"
Q: Can a ship perform an attack against an enemy ship at range 0 (with bases touching) when the range from the firing arc is range 1?
A: You cannot attack a ship at range 0 of you. This was an omission from the rules reference that will be clarified in the next update." - rules clarification
I think this is what is causing issues, I believe its a very poorly worded answer to the question. Maybe I am wrong but I believe that what is meant here is if any part of you is at range 0 of the target then you are at range 0 even if in arc is at range 1.
At any rate, the changing of the range band to a limit of (0-3) would then be overruling the "cant attack at 0" as it now specifies the weapon works at range 0.
2 hours ago, Icelom said:At any rate, the changing of the range band to a limit of (0-3) would then be overruling the "cant attack at 0" as it now specifies the weapon works at range 0.
Except it doesn't specify the weapon works at range zero, it says it can have a range that includes zero. Hopefully, they'll word it better in the RR than in the faq you quoted above but the RR is unclear, at best, on if a special weapon with a range including 0 can actually attack at that range. The use of the term "legal range" in the special weapon rules seems like that may be what they're going for but they never actually define that term to make it clear.
2 hours ago, MockingBird ME said:Except it doesn't specify the weapon works at range zero, it says it can have a range that includes zero. Hopefully, they'll word it better in the RR than in the faq you quoted above but the RR is unclear, at best, on if a special weapon with a range including 0 can actually attack at that range. The use of the term "legal range" in the special weapon rules seems like that may be what they're going for but they never actually define that term to make it clear.
The RR seems to be extremely clear when it comes to what ranges that special weapons work within...
...seems pretty straightforward and consistent to me... except that Rhymer does not include a specific provision that allows him to attack a ship at Range 0. So the question becomes, does Rhymer's range modification matter, if the rules still prevent an attack from happening at Range 0. I think we all know the Rules INTENT here (that Rhymer SHOULD be allowed to shoot), but FFG has, once again, caused contention among players with inelegant, imprecise rules language.
Joy.
Edited by emeraldbeacon16 minutes ago, emeraldbeacon said:There are no rulings which state that a ship cannot perform attacks at a given Range. Instead, each weapon is given a specific range bracket that it is permitted to use for attacks.
We do, they posted this in the FAQ in this very forum, here's the text for you:
Q: Can a ship perform an attack against an enemy ship at range 0 (with bases touching) when the range from the firing arc is range 1?
A: You cannot attack a ship at range 0 of you. This was an omission from the rules reference that will be clarified in the next update." - rules clarification
This is the crux of the issue, if there is a blanket rule that you cannot attack at range zero of another ship then the special weapon rule needs to explicitly override this for special weapons with range 0-X else they cannot attack another ship that is at range zero of them without an additional special rule.
54 minutes ago, MockingBird ME said:We do, they posted this in the FAQ in this very forum, here's the text for you:
Q: Can a ship perform an attack against an enemy ship at range 0 (with bases touching) when the range from the firing arc is range 1?
A: You cannot attack a ship at range 0 of you. This was an omission from the rules reference that will be clarified in the next update." - rules clarification
This is the crux of the issue, if there is a blanket rule that you cannot attack at range zero of another ship then the special weapon rule needs to explicitly override this for special weapons with range 0-X else they cannot attack another ship that is at range zero of them without an additional special rule.
Rhymer DOES explicitly override that ruling , Golden Rule and all that.
You know as well as I do that ruling is for the edge case of a ship being at range 0 and attack range 1 and spuriously trying to apply it to this is very disingenuous indeed. Rhymer is about as clear a case of teh golden rule as you're ever going to get.
59 minutes ago, MockingBird ME said:We do, they posted this in the FAQ in this very forum, here's the text for you:
Q: Can a ship perform an attack against an enemy ship at range 0 (with bases touching) when the range from the firing arc is range 1?
A: You cannot attack a ship at range 0 of you. This was an omission from the rules reference that will be clarified in the next update." - rules clarification
This is the crux of the issue, if there is a blanket rule that you cannot attack at range zero of another ship then the special weapon rule needs to explicitly override this for special weapons with range 0-X else they cannot attack another ship that is at range zero of them without an additional special rule.
This is a valid point.
However there is a ship in the game that does specifically state an additional special rule so that they can attack at range zero but I can't remember the name.
Im sure it's something like Rajor Mhymer.
What about Ariel Crynyd, is his card ability invalid because of the rules clarification or does the card take priority?