I just wanted to get a topic started for the wording now before it happens in the LGS. Hyperspace Tracking Data says "between 0 an 6," but the First Order Conversion Kit Article shows that 0 is an option. My inference is it's not just 1-5 available for initiative, but that the card should read "choose a number from 0-6."

Seems obvious, but I wanted something online to point to later for the inevitable arguments that come up.

I honestly thinked the article goofed up. And I think In 1-5 should be the only choices. Plus i would agree if the card said from 0 to 6 instead of between 0 and 6.

In 0 would not be too bad except in swarms and if 6 was a choice the rare In 6 guys would lose some of their edge.

This ****ing day doesn't end.

"Between" does not rule out an inclusive, closed set. "Between" and "From" is a distinction without a difference.

Trying to exclude 0 or 6 is the sort of rules interpretation I've been seeing onhere all day, and I don't mean that in a good way. Particularly when FFG has made it clear this is a set inclusive of the endpoints. Consider: in any range measurement check, the 0-X interval includes both 0 and X. To say that this and this alone is an exclusive interval which does not contain the endpoints is at once novel in X-Wing, contradicted by (not 100% reliable) preview articles, and at best relying on an extremely narrow specificity of language based in some technical background when ordinary usage doesn't need to distinguish.

I'd suggest that if FFG didn't want 0 and 6 in there, they'd have said 1-5. And then there'd still be griping that you could only do 2-4.

//

As to balance issues, I don't see any. Recall that the 1e version of this card worked at PS 0, 6, or 12, so ahead of where the highest PS ships could place. Now, Hyperspace Tracking Data can at maximum place at the same Initiative as top aces, and then it all comes down to a points bid. That seems like a more fair version of the 1e card.

Bah, I'm tired and it's been a bad day. Perhaps I'm getting mean for no reason. I still think the argument is the worst kind of rules quibbling.

Guess they should have said to choose an initiative between -1 and 7...

3 hours ago, theBitterFig said:

I still think the argument is the worst kind of rules quibbling.

The "argument" is being raised here, in an effort to lock down the meaning of a potentially ambiguous card, however clear one person may THINK the meaning is. We're not trying to be rules lawyers; quite the opposite. We want to know solidly what the ruling is, so we know how to deal with it when we run into it in the wild; JUST in case the scenario arises.

Maybe everyone on the forums would do well to take a step back and a deep breath... then just state what their concerns and beliefs are about a certain rules set, without attacking anyone else or their views, and keeping an open mind into everyone else's opinion. All of this, of course, with a sense of gentleness and kindness towards the person on the other side of the screen.

For what it's worth, I believe that, as @theBitterFig stated, the phrase "Choose a number from 0-6" is meant to be inclusive, not exclusive (meaning zero and six are legal values). Technically, it doesn't say "integer," so you could even pick an interim number (say 4.5) that allows you to place after your opponent's 4s, but before their 5s... if such a thing mattered?

3 hours ago, theBitterFig said:

This ****ing day doesn't end.

"Between" does not rule out an inclusive, closed set. "Between" and "From" is a distinction without a difference.

Trying to exclude 0 or 6 is the sort of rules interpretation I've been seeing onhere all day, and I don't mean that in a good way. Particularly when FFG has made it clear this is a set inclusive of the endpoints. Consider: in any range measurement check, the 0-X interval includes both 0 and X. To say that this and this alone is an exclusive interval which does not contain the endpoints is at once novel in X-Wing, contradicted by (not 100% reliable) preview articles, and at best relying on an extremely narrow specificity of language based in some technical background when ordinary usage doesn't need to distinguish.

I'd suggest that if FFG didn't want 0 and 6 in there, they'd have said 1-5. And then there'd still be griping that you could only do 2-4.

//

As to balance issues, I don't see any. Recall that the 1e version of this card worked at PS 0, 6, or 12, so ahead of where the highest PS ships could place. Now, Hyperspace Tracking Data can at maximum place at the same Initiative as top aces, and then it all comes down to a points bid. That seems like a more fair version of the 1e card.

Bah, I'm tired and it's been a bad day. Perhaps I'm getting mean for no reason. I still think the argument is the worst kind of rules quibbling.

I am not saying that I am right, just what I think and how I hear the word between from school and life. I could be 100% wrong and the article is right and that the card can let one choose 0 and 6. I mean a article said that Qi'ra doesn't shut down Han and Trick shot but everyone said that was wrong.

So sorry if I hit a switch or something, was just saying what my opinion was.

Even if you don't believe it to be inclusive (Which is is) you could just pick 0.1 to 5.9 so it's irrelevant anyway.

3 hours ago, AramoroA said:

Even if you don't believe it to be inclusive (Which is is) you could just pick 0.1 to 5.9 so it's irrelevant anyway.

I like this. If you have an unfavorable match up, but could win via Final Salvo, you could just choose a number calculated to 100 million decimal places and declare it to your opponent.

Of course you'd have to say the number out loud for the full 75 minutes to get to the final salvo........... ?

8 hours ago, KiraYamatoSF said:

I am not saying that I am right, just what I think and how I hear the word between from school and life. I could be 100% wrong and the article is right and that the card can let one choose 0 and 6. I mean a article said that Qi'ra doesn't shut down Han and Trick shot but everyone said that was wrong.

So sorry if I hit a switch or something, was just saying what my opinion was.

Yeah, it was a bad day, and I didn't quote anyone since I didn't know how strongly anyone was making the argument and I didn't want to target anyone in particular. I came on too aggressive and knew it. But I really wanted to use a Carrie Fisher gif.

//

With Qi'ra, a lot was wrapped up in the term ignore. Historically, ignoring something in X-Wing has meant that both good and bad effects of something don't happen. The attack isn't obstructed because the obstacle is ignored, so things which depend on being obstructed don't trigger.

It was hard not to see the Skornergy--a term from the Hordes faction Skorne, where a lot of intended effects or synergies had contradictory elements. A particular warlock raises the dead models he kills with his spells, but his spells remove models he kills from play, so he couldn't raise them from the dead. It wasn't an issue unique to the faction, and most of it has been cleaned up (or so I gather), but the term stuck around because it happened significantly within that faction.

//

I kinda get the language thing. In math class where kids need to know if the test question is about (0,1) or [0,1], I kinda get it. But one thing which I kept wanting to write but always stopped because it felt silly due to repetition: There is very little difference between "between" and "from"--itself an example of between as including the two terms. It's different in the sense these are discrete words, and not values along a number line, but I think it points to common usage being interchangeable.

//

2 hours ago, Elbastido said:

I like this. If you have an unfavorable match up, but could win via Final Salvo, you could just choose a number calculated to 100 million decimal places and declare it to your opponent.

Of course you'd have to say the number out loud for the full 75 minutes to get to the final salvo........... ?

Other than being handed a Loss for unsporting conduct for delay of game.

52 minutes ago, theBitterFig said:

Other than being handed a Loss for unsporting conduct for delay of game.

I'm not sure you've taken my post with the correct level of whimsy...... It was by no means a serious suggestion. :-)

The word between has different usages, some of which are inclusive of the "endpoints" and some which exclude them.

I'm pretty sure you can pick any number of the following set - {0,1,2,3,4,5,6}

The exclusive version of between is typically used in more technical works. While you might argue that game rules should be technical, I'd argue that it's apparent that they are often more conversational.

As others have pointed out, we can technically pick fractional numbers between integers since the card does not say we can't.

Obviously, they should start printing cards like this with a stated set as I've presented above.

28 minutes ago, Elbastido said:

I'm not sure you've taken my post with the correct level of whimsy...... It was by no means a serious suggestion. ?

I started more whimsical, saying that anything over 5 decimal places should be considered delay of game, but it got revised.

It is funny because if I told you: You can take an apple between these two apples. And I point at two apples being at each end of a range of apple everyone would take some apple in the middle. But then we get here and everyone start arguing.

Seriously I don't know the correct answer, but when in real life I'm suggested to take something in between two thing, I never take the limit. And every time I asked someone to choose a number, I always said: Choose a number from 1 to 10.

And then this make me wonder why they again templated their card wrong... from X to Y would have created 0 confusion, so why did they not choose that !? Why go for "between".

People can insult the side that think it is invalid to choose 0 and 6, but you still have to wonder, why they used between when from was way less confusing.

22 minutes ago, muribundi said:

It is funny because if I told you: You can take an apple between these two apples. And I point at two apples being at each end of a range of apple everyone would take some apple in the middle. But then we get here and everyone start arguing.

If you pointed at two apples and said, "you can take an apple between these two apples," I would take one of the two apples.

This is one of those words that means different things in different contexts but those contexts can also overlap.

8 minutes ago, CaptainIxidor said:

If you pointed at two apples and said, "you can take an apple between these two apples," I would take one of the two apples.

This is one of those words that means different things in different contexts but those contexts can also overlap.

Ok, then it mean you can only choose 0 or 6 ?

See, yes there is context and the context is, 0 and 6 seems to imply a range, not two fixed choices...

By the way I think you can choose 0 and 6 and all the integer in between, but it still show that they were not clear and they could have been... (From have no confusion)

Edit: You see, we are in good fate, and we assume they are not just bad at their job. So if they choose between instead of from, there should be a reason, other then they are just not good at wording stuff !??!

45 minutes ago, muribundi said:

It is funny because if I told you: You can take an apple between these two apples. And I point at two apples being at each end of a range of apple everyone would take some apple in the middle. But then we get here and everyone start arguing.

Seriously I don't know the correct answer, but when in real life I'm suggested to take something in between two thing, I never take the limit. And every time I asked someone to choose a number, I always said: Choose a number from 1 to 10.

And then this make me wonder why they again templated their card wrong... from X to Y would have created 0 confusion, so why did they not choose that !? Why go for "between".

People can insult the side that think it is invalid to choose 0 and 6, but you still have to wonder, why they used between when from was way less confusing.

Office Secret Santa suggests that a gift should be between $10 and $20 dollars. An item priced exactly $10 isn't inappropriate. It's a little cheap, but that's an issue of decorum, rather than language. A few friends might have a private conversation between themselves. Clearly, the friends are included.

I'm sure FFG didn't word it some other way, because it never occurred to them that it would be confusing . For casual purposes, most folks will use "between" and "from" pretty close to interchangeably.

The confusion isn't in the choice of the word "between." The confusion is introduced here, by some rules shyster. Exactly as I was saying in my first response above. Take it away, zaddy!

2 hours ago, theBitterFig said:

I'm sure FFG didn't word it some other way, because it never occurred to them that it would be confusing . For casual purposes, most folks will use "between" and "from" pretty close to interchangeably

Except their job is to be clear. No "from" can't be used interchangeably. If you want your interval to be exclusive, you must use "between", "from" will not do it. So to be clear they should have used "from".

They are professional game design, not john doe from his basement. There is reasons why there is a game called Magic The Gathering that wiped most other trading card game every time someone try. One of it is their template is top notch and clear. And when there is confusion, they answer it really fast.

I'm of the opinion 0 and 6 are to be included, but I see why, as someone that care about template a lot, there is confusion.

?

3 hours ago, muribundi said:

It is funny because if I told you: You can take an apple between these two apples. And I point at two apples being at each end of a range of apple everyone would take some apple in the middle. But then we get here and everyone start arguing.

Seriously I don't know the correct answer, but when in real life I'm suggested to take something in between two thing, I never take the limit. And every time I asked someone to choose a number, I always said: Choose a number from 1 to 10.

And then this make me wonder why they again templated their card wrong... from X to Y would have created 0 confusion, so why did they not choose that !? Why go for "between".

People can insult the side that think it is invalid to choose 0 and 6, but you still have to wonder, why they used between when from was way less confusing.

If you said "pick between 0 and 6 apples" (as the card is worded)

I would pick 0,1,2,3,4,5, or 6 apples.

None of you are reading the card properly. The ONLY legal choices are 0 and 6.

EDIT - please be advised that this is what I like to call "humor" but my friends like to call "the reason we don't hang out anymore"

1 hour ago, Icelom said:

If you said "pick between 0 and 6 apples" (as the card is worded)

I would pick 0,1,2,3,4,5, or 6 apples.

Absolutely. IRL "pick a number between 1 and 10" is as about as common as they get. And incidentally 1 and 10 are both viable options.