Hello all

I have a situation (not in a bad way) that i'd like some grizzled GMs to offer sage advice on. All players in my game (the Thors Redemption game) should immediately go elsewhere and not read further. You'll only ruin the plot for yourselves.

Background

My players, the brave scions of the Parol Dynasty, have managed to find a webway portal in the Koronus Expanse. This particular gate is large enough to get a ship through (even a battleship if you don't mind scratching the paint work) and has its terminus in the Calixis sector (near the trailing edge of the Drusus Marches sub-sector, light years from anywhere). The passage is utterly calm and takes a mere two days to traverse making it infinitely safer and quicker than the Maw crossing.

The Plan

Realising exactly how momentus this discovery is, our heroes have endeavoured to set about controlling this webway tunnel and thereby make themselves extremely rich, powerful and popular with the Imperium top brass ("whats that Admiral, you've always dreaming of leading a crusade into the Expanse but you know you'd lose too many ships to the Maw.......i may have a proposition for you.").

To this end they plan to acquire a wayfarer space station, set it up at one end of the portal and essentially charge a toll for all using it. They plan to create agreements with other rogue traders to allow unrestricted travel in return for <valuable stuff> and to charge one off tolls on those without agreements.

As it happens, the PCs might know where a derelict space station can be found and they are thinking of taking it apart and having it moved and reassembled next to the portal. This is, obviously, a momentus and vast undertaking. Their profit factor is simply not up to it.

However! We have a houserule thats been in place a while. Players can burn profit factor permanently to increase their profit factor for one roll. They can choose to burn AFTER they fail a roll, thus allowing them to sell off profitable resources, burn bridges with influential men in exchange for one BIG favour, lean hard on people to get results at the risk of permanently alienating them, etc.

Thus if the PCs failed to buy something cool, like a new ship, they could burn a number of profit factor to temporarily boost their stat. For every point they burn they get +2 to their PF for one roll and they can burn as much as they have.

My PCs are already preparing to burn much profit factor to get the station built on the belief (correctly as it turns out) that it will be good for their long term wealth and prestige.

So, my questions

1) I'm thinking of having their profit factor go up slowly naturally to a set point within game time (maybe +2 profit factor every six months until it reaches 50 then by +1 every year until 60, etc, etc) but i've not settled on numbers. Is this the best way that i could handle it? I'm open to other ideas. If this is, whats the best way to pace it. +2 every six month sounds good but i'm open to ideas.

2) What kind of plots could i generate off the players having their own station, especially one in such a strategic location. They've already decided to make the navy their friend by offering all sorts of goodies, free travel, free berthing etc. But other rogue traders might get envious, other factions, etc. I'm open to ideas.

3) How long would it take to tear down a space station, move it and rebuild it? I'm guessing definately years and this will obviously be affected by the size of the workforce they bring in. Its a wayfarer station (or rather, close enough to one that the differences don't matter), the same as in the RT rulebook.

4) Should i punish my players harshly if they attempt to name it either Deep Space 9 or Babylon 5? My natural instincts say yes.

Gribble_the_Munchkin said:

While I am not a grizzled GM, but rather, a hatchling, allow me to offer my 2 thrones:

1) I personally would not. I can see how an argument could be made for this, since business ventures, assuming they are successful, increase in wealth over time. However, I would hesitate to do so as the idea of the game is to have them increase their wealth through their own daring and audacity, rather than through good management.

2) A space station is a juicy prize for any pirate, rival rogue trader, or xenos fleet. If the players want to claim something of this magnitude, which is a bold and monumental task, then they should have to fight for it. Maintaining it will be no easy task, either. They will most likely have to set up trade agreements with nearby worlds for supplies. Convincing the AdMech to help move the station and maintain it could require promises of a hefty favor. And, of course, there are those who will see the webway, a filthy Eldar construct, as an unclean abomination, and seek to cleanse any heretic who seeks to utilize such a foul tool. Summary: Something this bold is bound to tax the resources of the RT, and he should be prepared to spend more or less all of his time defending his claim.

3) Ships take decades, or even centuries to build from scratch. The Wayfarer station is about the size of a cruiser, one of the largest ships, but dismantling and reconstructing is considerably easier than making from raw materials. I would say it would take at least a decade to break it downinto parts small enough to fit aboard ships, time to ferry it to the new location, and at least as long, if not longer, to rebuild it. If they have the resources to do all three simultaneously, it would take, I would say, at least fifteen years. Another option might be to enlist several ships to use tow cables, boost the power of their gellar fields, and move the station through the warp.

4) Let them, it'll be their own fault when their pretty new station gets a visit from the Death Star.

They could just try to buy a Ramilies Class Star Fort - The Navy might even chip in because they do not want invasion fleets from the Expanse coming back into the Calixis sector! That wormhole has to be protected, not just tolled, for the security of the sector.

SJE

Hmmmm, a decade or so as construction will most likely remove it as a plot element. I might go for the option to tow it through the warp. Equip it with some hella powerful gellar fields and tow it into place. This would still be a major operation, hiring enough large vessels to cope, buying gellar fields and all the reinforcement, structural and engineering work that would go into towing a five kilometre starbase via several 5km cruisers. Caravaning it isn't.

Ramilies class starfort might be a good idea but its more likely the Navy would just stick their own fort at the Calixis end rather than give one to the PCs.

SJE said:

1) I personally would not. I can see how an argument could be made for this, since business ventures, assuming they are successful, increase in wealth over time. However, I would hesitate to do so as the idea of the game is to have them increase their wealth through their own daring and audacity, rather than through good management.

This did occur to me, i don't want my players sitting on their butts for a couple of years or semi retiring for a while to let their profit factor top itself up. Getting a space station and such a profitable situation would certainly do wonders for the profit factor. Seems a bit weird to let my PCs burn PF to get it all set up, then immediately give them some PF in a bulk amount as a result of the profitable venture.

Hmmmm, i suppose the station would only start making money once the route is used, so i could not give them ANY PF from the station itself but have it allow them to approach other ships captains and merchant groups to break offers (i.e. PF for access to the webway portal).

More ideas, more!

1) First off remember that Profit Factor per point is a lot. The fact of rising it each year isn't how it works. The system is based on gain and loss. Ex: You make a trade route to a mineral rich world, +2 PF. That is it. It doesn't get better if the planet ships more or if they don't. However, if they don't thats a good chance to sap PF from the Rogue Trader and inputting a Endeavor to get back some PF. I personally would add in any system to the PF that slowly rises their profit factor. Though I have made it so if the Rogue Trader comes into owning a resource that is a one time sale. I'll boost the over all PF for a short bit, 6 to 12 mouths. For example this is how I see a Pirate ship working. The Pirates don't have a steady income. (Yeah my RT is more or Rogue Pirate than a Rogue Trader at times)

2) THIS IS THE GRIM FUTURE OF 40K!! The Rogue Trader can get away with murder and heresy in the Expanse but not in the Calixis Sector! The Inquisition would be on their ass so quick. Really using a Xeno Webportal!?! The Calixis Navy Battlefleet is ok with this? Ok Ok! Assuming you are going to rethink this for a bit and not have the whole sector know about it. For if they did by the High Lords of Terra would have every person that ever saw your Rogue Trader be purged and the Webportal would be destroyed.

Enemies and Adversaries

-The Inquisition

-Pirates

-Other Rogue Traders

-The Calixis Navy Battlefleet

-THE XENO THAT MADE IT!!! If Eldar found out that you had one of their Webways they would flip! All the sudden you have a fleet of xeno vessels coming out into the Calixis Sector!

-Rebels intent on using it to flee the Imperium

-Chaos! I can see a room full of Chaos Marines laughing as the use your Webportal to invade the Calixis

3) As others said it might take decades for the a Station to be taken apart and moved. Personally as a GM I'd be fine with that. As Rogue Traders live hundreds of years and I'm sure that they don't just hit it rich in a short time, I can see fast forwarding the game a possibility. I'd thank it be fun to do it in parts tho. Every few adventures or so the PCs see the slow construction of the station. Have a few battles to protect it, and see the difference once its up and working. They will like it more and be thankful for it.

DM Variyn said:

He's not going to actually be setting up operations in the Calaxis sector, though. The station is going to be at the Koronus expanse end of the portal where, as you said, the RT can do as they please.

The Boy Named Crow said:

That's somehow worse. He's leaving the side in the Calaxis Sector unguarded? Rogue Traders or anyone can just pass through it. Then dip off without paying a toll. Worse comes to worse this skipping of toll causes a firefight. What would the Station do if a big fleet from a richer and large Rogue Dynasty rolled through?

Also what keeps the Inquistion from destroying the portal on the other side, in the Calaxis. Its still a xeno artifact. The Inquisition would destroy or at least investigate. OR All you need is someone to venture randomly near it and tell the Inquisition or a Rogue Trader that feels as if he was over tolled being pissed and telling. Even better a Rogue Trader Dynasty that doesn't like PC's Dynasty and slipping the info to the Inquisition.

Don't get my wrong! Its a interesting idea. Too Stargate for me personally but everyone has their own ideas of 40k. If I was a player I'd be worried the DM was setting up a trap for the PCs.

Ex: The other players and I are excited about the large amount of throne we are all going to make using the "Eldar" Webway. We set up a void-station to guard and toll anyone traveling through. Right as business is booming we notice the Webway doesn't work (Note: I haven't pointed it out but how does the RT know how to use this Webway/Webportal/Gothic Ship Sized Stargate?). We all wonder why and soon decide to venture through the Maw to the Drusus Marches to see the other Portal. Right when we get there we find a large ancient xeno tech ring in pieces and a small fleet of Inquisitor Vessel wondering what were doing here.

We have the inquisition angle fairly well covered, in fact they contacted heir old boss, Inquisitor Erasmus Pile or Ordo Xenos before they spoke to anyone else. That said, he seems to have taken to carrying a bag of Eldar runestones, so the PCs have begun to distrust him.

The way i see it, the Imperium hates xenos, sure. But they aren't daft. The massive benefits of a stable, safe and fast route into the Expanse is simply priceless. To throw it away because it is xenos would be the height of madness. Having a much more easily guarded route into the expanse would allow close customs control too, leaving smugglers and cold trade dealers using the maw or getting found out, while legitimate merchants can squeeze the expanse for every penny it has.

Fear over the eldar (Dark Eldar actually) returning was what drove the investigation. They've found two portals, one linking the expanse to the calixis sector nd another one that they haven't explored yet.

The PCs aren't even sure it can be destroyed, it appears to lack a physical structure, its literally just a disc of darkness, hanging in the void, no frame, structures or defenses at all.

I tend not to spring nasty traps on the PCs of my own making, they make far too many enemies and mistakes on their own for me to need to think up new ideas to torment them.

Hmmm... I assume have read through the Dark Hesey book and parts of your own Rogue Trader book. If so you would be able to note the the Inquisition is a beast of many heads. Even though your players can appease one, doesn't mean the others don't want to eat you. Point being it is nearily impossible to befriend all of the Inquisition. Mostly due to the fact that befriend one side will only make another hate you on pure principle. So the Inquisition is still a problem and keeping that from your players I think would or will effect your player look on the 40k world as a whole. Players should see the Imperium as over whelmingly huge.

I would actually fully disagree with you saying the Imperium isn't daft. It certainly is... Remember the Emperor never wanted to be worshipped. Now billions of worlds do. Planets are purged for not worshipping the Him. Leman Russ tried to kill his brother and followed him into the Eye of Terror to do so. When all the brother was doing was warning the Emperor (His Father) that Horus was turning to the wrong side. Thats just a piece of sand on the beach of what the Imperium is like.

Also I personally don't see it as good DMing to only have the players deal with the problems they make. I think its best that in a story line if the PC piss off the wrong people that, they plus whoever I had being the story villian be on them. That makes the game more realistic. It be a blessing if you only had to deal with the problems you made and not the random ones that came biting you on the ass.

Gribble_the_Munchkin said:

3) The thing about Imperial space tech is that it's basically ground tech built in space - therefore instead of rebuilding a space stationwhy not just grabe a local asteroid, get a bunch of ships componants (or even a whole ship) and start building... instant space station! Tear down, move and rebuild is never going to happen quickly, so just strip the old one of the best componants and whack them on an asteroid.

4) **** Straight!

DM Variyn said:

I think i didn't explain myself properly. I mean that i'm happy to script in nastiness and if my players do something daft i'm happy to have something bad happen as a result. What i avoid is shooting down cool ideas via nasty traps.

For instance, if my plot is about them trying to catch a bad guy, the bad guy is free to ambush them, kill their friends, etc. If they make new enemies along the way, these people will also act against them.

If they decided to engage in a profit making venture that makes sense, the bad guy might well attack it (if he knows about it) but i won't have it go bad unless the it makes sense to move the plot forward. Foiling their schemes encourages the players to think that all their schemes will be foiled. I prefer to encourage them to go ahead with schemes thinking of success, its how rogue traders would think after all (yay ego!). When their schemes go wrong its thus because either they were stupid or because their villainous enemy made it so.

While this isn't realistic in the slightest, i'm not aiming for realism but for suspension of disbelief and an enjoyable game. Giving the players a baddie to hate (and i like to think i've made some baddies in my time that the players loathed beyond all mortal reason) and cunning plans to be proud of makes for a fun game.

Note that this doesn't imply monty haul style gaming, getting those schemes working in the first place needn't be easy and the players might sacrifice dearly for their success. Like all good stories it must involve the heroes struggle and eventual triumph in the face of adversity.

In the context of this space station discussion, it's going to cost the dynasty dearly to built/tow/rebuild a space station at the mouth of the wormhole. If they manage to get it done, i'll let them reap the financial benefits. If i decide to make the wormhole contested, or have their enemies find out about it, it'll be to drive the plot, rather than because its there. Of course, there are all kinds of sweet plot that can be built around it such as navy/inquisition/rivals trying to destroy it/capture it/etc and you can bet i'll be bringing in something along these lines. I won't simply have it blasted by the Navy though, thats no fun.

I think what i'll go for is to let them burn PF to get it up and running and then let them use it to create endeavours relating to its use rather than directly rewarding them with PF. e.g. now thy have the route established they could meet one of their friendly rogue traders (they don't have allies but they are friendly with a few traders) and offer to transport their goods through to the Calixis sector for cheaper than the current operators. They'll save money on time and lack of damage (compared to transversing the Maw). This endeavour would get them PF in the usual way.

Gribble_the_Munchkin said:

Perfect!

Actually, there is another option for the station, that wouldn't take anywhere near as long as those outlined above.
Hexathredral nodes are purpose built orbital command/guard stations designed to be transported, in pieces, in cargo holds, with a modular design. Each node can apparently be carried by a single transport acting as a fleet collier, and can be assembled in under six weeks. And,of course, being modular, each node can be attached to up to six more.

They are apparently a fairly common sight among Imperial crusade fleets, so maybe they can pick up a node or two from Munitorum surplus for cheap.
I'd suggest that only one node can fit into each Main Cargo Hold module.

Individually, each node is far smaller than a Wayfarer, let alone a Ramillies- call it around the size of a raider-sized starship, but, as I've already noted, they are designed to lock together into a larger station.

Incidentally- the Ramillies is designed to be transported through the warp- and has its' own Geller field generators, although it lacks engines. If memory serves, it takes at least three cruiser-sized tugs to tow it, and sixteen Navigators.

@Munchkin

Please think twice before you allow the towing of a station through the warp. If you "establish" this in your universe... why isn´t any invasion force towing one or more space station to establish a "bridge head"?

You would make instellar warfare very "mobile" with this decision. In addition "abandoned space stations" would be a little ad absurdum if there would be the possibility to simply "drag" them to a new location. If they are "beyound all repair" it would still be worth the trouble to "remove them for salvage" to the next forge world.

Gregorius21778 said:

Yeah, i thought about that. Given that this is a small station, i've ruled that they need a pair of cruiser or larger ships and at least one other to pull it successfully. Most rogue traders can't manage that. My group can (they own one cruiser and their friendly local inquisitor who is their kinda-business partner has another). They also have a raider to help with steering the station.

In actual warfare i'd say that thats exactly what the navy do. They use specialised tugs to navigate stations through the warp. Given that small wayfarer stations can bedestroyed by a single cruiser, they aren't exactly defensive bulwarks, but would be handy for resupply, repairs, etc. Note that i don't see it as easy as hitching up the ol' towbar. Its a major operation, requires multiple ships and excellent co-ordination between them, runs into real problems if the warp gets sassy and essentially cripples any kind of maneouvrability of the towing ships.

A quick addendum/errata to my previous post- the Ramillies requires at least 6 battleship -sized tugs, and 17 Navigators, not the previously stated 3 cruisers and 16 Navigators. My apologies for the mistake.

Even without that correction, however, it is pretty obvious that it'd be a logistical nightmare (as you've already stated). Another point to consider may be that it's not unknown (though admittedly rare) for canny, lucky or incredibly skilled raider captains to track and intercept a ship in warp, and as you've noted, a towing ship is going to have next to no manoeuvrability, and (I would guess, based upon their increased mass/displacement) would leave a larger warp trail to follow.
Do any of the dynasties enemies have a captain that lucky/good?

Alasseo said:

2 direct sources, from novels by different authors, and one other source from a novel in which the antagonists deliberately took steps to prevent it from happening.

The first example: Execution Hour (Gordon Rennie)- the HDMS Lord Solar Macharius is ambushed in real space by the Styx-class heavy cruiser Contagion (or possibly the Corruption - one was a sister ship to the other). Macharius is heavily damaged and forced to disengage and flee via emergency warp jump. Contagion tracks her down, in open warp, to continue the engagement. Macharius breaks contact briefly by returning to real space to make emergency repairs, but Contagion follows and forces a battle. This cycle repeats three times before Captain Semper (of Macharius) lures Contagion in by ordering his Geller Fields reduced to 30% power, then coming about and smashing Contagion with a point-blank torpedo salvo as she closed.

Second example: Death or Glory (Sandy Mitchell)- Ork Warboss Gargash Korbul stationed a Brute-class ram ship in the warp on the likely approach route for Imperial forces to reach Perlia. Stuffed inside the ship were a number of weirdboyz, whose job was to instigate a psychic shockwave and force the Imperial fleet (or as much of it as possible) to out of warp further from Perlia than they wished, and straight into the teef of an ork ambush flotilla.

Third example (the aversion): Battle for the Abyss (Ben Counter)- the Word Bearers dreadnought Furious Abyss knows it is being pursued, and drops a "mine" as it enters warp. The "mine" is essentially a life-pod, filled with cultist-psykers, and a self-destruct charge. Similar to the orkoid example above, the death-screams of the psykers trigger a warp storm, forcing the Furious Abyss ' pursuers into realspace and preventing them from openly tracking or intercepting them at warp.

There are a number of less concrete examples, such as in BloodQuest (Gordon Rennie), although that was more an interception in the Eye, and Eye of Terror (Barrington J Bayley), although most of the later chase/interception took place not in open warp, but in a volume in which the materium and immaterium were artificially and temporarily fused (allowing superluminal travel in "real" space). The first couple of chapters, however, had an Inquisitorial nullship intercepted, in the warp, while spying on planets and shipyards in the Eye.
In addition, I'm relatively certain I read a mention of the tactic in an old BFGMag, but my memory may be playing me false on that one.

Don't get me wrong- I firmly believe that intercepting a ship in warp should be a ridiculously rare exception, not the rule, I was merely raising it as an idea, and pointing out that while such interceptions should be rarer than hen's teeth, a towed station would be far slower, far less agile, and far, far easier for a Navigator to track than normal starship, and the lesser maneuvrability would make it easier for another vessel to catch up to them while under way.
Whether the Dynasty's enemies are skilled/lucky enough to pull it off (and insane enough to try it), is a matter for Gribble.