Kanluwen said:

Geneseed lacking in mutations:

1. Ultramarines

2. Iron Hands

3. White Scars

4. Salamanders (their appearance as far as I'm aware isn't a mutation but rather a reaction of their melanochrome to the intense radiation of their planet)

5. Dark Angels

As far the Raven Guard go, it's well established that they have highly flawed geneseed. If you don't want to acknowledge that that's your business, but GW has stated over and over that their geneseed is so flawed that they can't even replinish their numbers at a normal rate.

I think we're using different definitions of mutation here.

Raven Guard don't exhibit the real aberrations that we see in the Space Wolves, Blood Angels, etc. Pale skin and jet black hair is pretty much nothing in the grand scheme of things.

I'm with Atheosis on this one. Like it or not but the darkening of the hairs and whitening of the skin is due a mutation is one of the gene-seeded organs (don't know which one tho). It might be little BUT it is still a mutation.

Ähm, Sorry

Butt The Dark Angels, hasn´t had or will ever an Genseed Mutaiton!!

Because they are the First Ever Foundet Chapter of Space Marines,

only the Grey Nights Chapter from the Holly Inquisitor of Ordo Malleus has the same Purity of Genseeds!!

That i found here : wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Progenoid

Chapters with known gene-seed flaws:

* Blood Angels: Black Rage and the Red Thirst.
* Imperial Fists: Missing Betcher's Gland and Sus-an Membrane.
* Space Wolves: Enlarged canine teeth and Mark of the Wulfen.
* Raven Guard: Missing Mucranoid and Betcher's Gland. Pale skin and dark eyes.
* Blood Ravens:can't experience R.E.M. sleep and have perfect recall.
* Salamanders: Onyx black skin and bright red eyes. (Malfunctioning Malenochrome gland)

regards

Custodes said:

It's already been stated that Dark Angels have no geneseed flaws. They have all kinds of other issues though.

I'm just of the opinion that for Chapters like the Salamanders, Blood Angels, and Raven Guard(off the top of my head)"mutations" are too strong of a word for the Gene-seed flaws.

I'm far happier with aberrations or "whoopsies".

Kanluwen said:

A thirst for blood and haunting genetic memory of their primarch's death that send them into a psychopathic frenzy are not serious mutations?

Wolftemplar said:

In my opinion?

No, because those are behavioral quirks and of those only one is directly related to the geneseed(the genetic memory of Sanguinus' death).

Kanluwen said:

Not to be argumentative here but you are altering the definition of a word to suit you. A mutation is any genetic abnormality. Any and all; just because you’d prefer to call it “Whoopsies” doesn’t matter, it is a mutation. And frankly I’m a little baffled as to why this is a point of argument for you my friend. Perhaps you feel we are attacking you most beloved chapter or something? That is not the case. A mutation isn’t a bad thing in and of itself. It is a neutral thing, not being evil or good, it just is. In fact the very act of making a Space Marine is mutating the man from a normal human into something else. All Space Marines are mutants by definition as they have had their genetic material altered. It’s just that it is, for the most part, controlled and regulated (which is why what happens to the Space Wolves and others is a further mutation) and is needed because without the Marines (if we believe the background) the Imperium would have collapsed long ago.

And “mutations” would not be too strong a word; in fact “Aberration,” (the word you chose to use) is a much stronger word as it has a negative meaning, an aberration is something that passes on negative genetic material where as a mutation can be negative or positive. Also you called them “Gene-seed Flaws,” yet another strong and negative word (the very fact that you say it is a flaw places negative value to it). But the rest of us are saying mutation not to be negative but simple to state a fact. In point of fact the argument could be made that the Space Wolves mutation has a net positive for them (just ask any hardcore Wolf-ite and they can give you a hundred reasons it’s the best thing ever, lol). Also the Salamander mutation has no real effect other than the aesthetic.

Edit: And the Bloodlust is caused by a mutation. It is caused by a breakdown of the prefrontal cortex which is the reasoning center which is triggered by a massive release of adrenalin and other brain chemicals as they relive their Primarch’s death; this would trigger the medulla oblongata and temporal lobe, which are reactive centers, (what we might call the animal centers) to take control of functionality. This may not be how it is stated in the codex or official lore but biochemically it is the only way it could be explained within the given parameters; and it is boring which is why they wouldn’t just state it in this manner (and trust me even with how boring that was I could have been even more so) and instead make it cooler in the lore.

Don't you go bringing your fancypants science in here!

Plus, if I remember right the Salamanders are a bit more slow and ponderous compared to the rest of the Astartes. But I don't have that stuff on-hand anymore.

Kanluwen said:

Yes, Codex:Armageddon for the old edition of the TT game. The Salamanders got their own army list ( along with Black templars, IG Steel Legion and Ork Speed Freaks ). What set the Sallies apart from other Chapters was the fact their Initiative was on par with normal humans ( 3 ).