Stag Lord said:

ahem....see here (and if you don't feel like clicking i've copy/pasted it)

I like the new mel a lot. I'm glad that she is a pure rush card (and she doesn't need to be standing to be good for you).

I'm not sure if she supplants core set mel right away though. Mel's albilty to turn off power can be game winning, and not just in mirror matches. Martell and GJ can go pretty fast w/ renown and I liked having an answer for infamy (one of the easiest ways to cripple a bara deck, when it was more prevelant) in lanni decks.

1st, I don't think anyone would disagree that the 'cycle' of producing uniques is weird. I just don't understand why we have 3X of many characters and none of so many more. I just can't understand the logic (I guess unless the first version is horrible - i.e. Cercei). I really don't think it is sales (~'what, another Robb is in this pack, I HAVE to have it!!!') compared to if some favorite uniques woudl be produced (still no Lem!!!).

2nd, a decent amount of 5-cost cards see competative play. Tywin is in every Lanni build I make (then again, I play pretty much all the saves I can and love cards like Wildfire), including the 3rd place last year deck (granted not as many cards in the pool). Red Viper is played. Crow's Eye is played. New Littlefinger is played (granted, most people don't pay 5 for him). That all being said, only the Viper really is a power card if you build a deck around him.

3rd, he is powerful, but like it has been said there are a wealth of control cards to get rid of him. Characters are still fragile, be it through plots (Valor), events (Lanni Pays), burn, or attachments (already been named). Heck, even locations (Bear Island). It is 10X easier to control characters than locations. The non-kneeling is situational, and with all the stealth and deadly and kneeling out there...not that amazing really. The card draw is decent, but like the LIV or King Tommen it isn't game-breaking in any way.

and by all those arguments jaqen should be unbanned.

I'm not arguing that there is no way to control him, that characters aren't fragile anymore, that 5 gold cards aren't playable (i was countering that to be 5 gold you had to have immunity or reduction built in), that attachments aren't a good control method, etc.

My argument is what he is an example of, not what he is. he is an example of how inexpensive abilities are becoming.

lets look at the 4 card rings brings up and timeline to what they get for their cost. bold will be the additional boosts itilacs defeciencies.

Tywin (not sure which one so i guess i need to address both). 5 gold tricon noble crest v1 = +2 gold a turn, untaxable; v2 = renown shadows hate/synergy

v1 for 5 gold you get 3 icons a crest and an in house ability that is sort of weak for that house

v2 for 5 gold you get 3 icons a crest renown and a strong in house ability

Crow's Eye for 5 gold you get Immunity to events 3 icons and a really strong in house ability (must be standing), stealth on defense (if standing)

Littlefinger for 5 gold you get posible cost reduction , stealth , 2 icons , garaunteed non-kneeling on attack, crest No Condition attachments, ally

TRV for 5 gold you get Immunity to char abs and events , 3 icons, renown, a crest, possible non-kneeling ability

Fish for 4 gold you get 2 icons, crest, renown, possible non-kneeling for self and others (even if he is knelt), DRAW (without participating in challenge or having to kneel)

so for one gold less he doesn't have immunity but he gets 2 abilities, both of which still work even if he is knelt. attachment control works on all of the examples (except littlefinger, but he gets ally hate so evens out a bit). If an icon = a gold, then there are some cheap characters out there. the str count is the same for the two other non-kneelers so thats not the. So either immunity is too cheap or having 2 abilities is too cheap....i'm just not sure what the next box will bring, is it going to be a 3 gold 3 str 2 icon card w/ a crest, immune to triggered effects and self stands after an event is played?

this wouldn't be an issue if one of the stated goals of the LCG was to reset the environment and slowly build up (if this is slow I'd hate to see fast). Part of starks problem before this card was that their exisiting cards (i.e. core set uniques) were not on par with the cards being released (see the list above and add in darkstar, arriene, victiron, tyrion, balon, new khal, etc and etc). now they created a situation where to fix an issue they release one card that basically fills the hole.

if we still want to argue no immunity in regards to control well with the tullys out now you can have 9 tullys on the board at once, 3 of which are uniques, 2 of which have noble crest and lord or lady, 3 of which are zombies and don't stay dead, 3 of which have a war crest, and 1 of which can cancel targeted effects...you do get him knelt and he can strill provide draw, or if you are a little slow in your control (we'll ignore other cancels, stands, and positive attachments) and he gets 3 power on him (aside from being 1/5 closer to winning) he now makes at least 8 other cards better. kill is going to be hard with dupes, saves, and power of blood (targ has it easier, but there are enough ways to stop burn too if its an issue). Plus the immunity on euron and red viper also works against the controller of the card

Part 2 of Erick's writeup is now posted. Hot ****, I like the other cards spoiled, too!

This set should be AMAZING!!!

@lars One thing I don't understand about your comparisons. The Blackfish starts with Renown and Draw, but has to work to get the non-kneel attack. He needs to build up to it. All the other cards come with their abilities the second they hit the board. So although 4 gold is a great cost for him, at 5 gold we should expect him to grant his House Tully synergy when he hits the board, just like all the other 5-cards.

It is interesting that one of the Blackfish's ability is a little like Warhammer: Invasion quest-turned-character ability that is in a word: very granular.

Aside from gold, influence, and kneeling # of chars play restrictions, past card effects seem to have either on/off or win/lose by 4 type of thing going on, which is to me quaintly "chunky."

I love that AGoT LCG has recently started to develop its own sense of granularity (stackable agenda, Blackfish's non-kneel, etc) as it is one of Invasion's unique strengths that I really like over some of AGoT LCG's chunky but endearing mechanics.

With Beric and the mistakenly spoiled Euron (see the thread about the new chapter pack cycle), we've seen two more heavy hitters. So how does The Blackfish look now on the power vs cost scale? If the no power on the house ploy is fairly straightforward, Beric looks like a potent card a 4G, 3STR tricon with renown and a passive ability that lets you when things are going poorly Valar or Wildfire and potentially come out of it much stronger than your opponent (you can have four characters to your opp's three coming out of Wildfire) looks good to me. Euron could be even more so (5G, 4STR tricon with renown and stealth that can be infectious), so long as there's a decent assortment of Raider traited characters in the packs to go along with him. No events being triggered for the opponent during a challenge is a very strong effect in my opinion.

LetsGoRed said:

I'm not going to add much on Blackfish's power vs. cost scale other than I think it's balanced and fair. He's simply a very good card and if Stark players want to build their decks with him as their champion, so be it.

Both Beric and Euron are great (still miss my CCG ITE Euron), but like the Blackfish, the power vs. cost scale is balanced and fair. If we're going to see more and more "champion" cards like this though, cards like A Game of Cyvasse and maybe even Someone Always Tells will become more important to run in decks. Other than ITE and having a cancel at hand, there really isn't much to stop these events. I'd love to play A Game of Cyvasse and get rid of character like Beric or the Blackfish. Attachments like Milk of the Poppy or Fishing Net may become more important as well. Not to say that character control attachments aren't played, but I wouldn't be surprised to see them included in more decks in the upcoming months.

As for Euron, how long is he considered to be attacking in a challenge? Is it until the winner is decided, claim fulfilled, renown rewarded? Could a card like Red Vengeance be played by my opponent?

Sometimes I wish the new cards weren't spoiled so far away. I want them the second I see them. For example, the new Melisandre seems like old news now and she isn't even out yet.

FATMOUSE said:

I'm pretty sure that Response triggered effects that respond to the outcome of a challenge must be played within the challenge window they are responding to, just like any other response must be made within the same window in which the pre-requisite trigger occurs, so Euron thwarts Red Vengence and other events like it (e.g., Lannister will have to Pay their Debts some other challenge ).

new euron traded immunity, stealth on defense, and global (house wise) stealth giving for renown, crest, event control, limited stealth giving, and stealth on attack. Remains to be seen which is better (i.e. what else does raider get you? and is it a better then having outright immunity to events)

beric's okay...he needs a huge deckbuilding commitment and is a MWnK away from being claim soak for your opponent and no crest (harder to make a use out of him if milked)

i think these two actually do a good jod of showing the difference between a 4 and 5 cost card. the 4 cost is a lot less reliable, and is missing something to have a stronger effect.

blackfish is a combination of the two of them, renown, crest (that gives him half of Beric's protection w/out worrying about power), reward for power on characters that turns into trait based nastiness, oh and draw. blackfish is still the cheapest.

Valar Dohaeris....bye-bye Blackfish

edit, just saw the spoiler post.

its an interesting concept....i'm going to wait and see how it plays out.

Valar Dohaeris + Black cells is too strong :-(

Lars said:

my editing seems to be keeping the thread unread....

pulled under is a bit better from of control for him. i also find it interesting that the rational for making stronger characters is to increase the strength of control. Its defintally slipping away from their stated goal of the LCG....imagine buying a core set and strolling into you local meta and playing against a lanni shadows deck, stark tully rush, or martell/targ/greyjoy control with 6 resets.....

Lars said:

ok lars just wondering what are the 6 resets your talking about

next i think the blackfish is a great card that going to be a card like the viper that needs to be delt with right way when he hits the board but you still got up to 2 turns to deal with him not like he come out in play and hey tally do not kneel to attack or any thing need to build power on him first draw is nice to have but there are cannels for it too

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe Lars may be referring to the following cards:

The "hard" resets:

Valar Morghulis (CS, plot) - when revealed kill all chars in play.
Westros Bleeds (CS, event) - discard all chars event played during dominance phase.
The Red Viper (KL CP: Tales from the Red Keep, character) - a reset response on kill.

The "soft" resets:

Wildfire Assault (CS, plot) - kill all save 3.
Threat from the North (PotS, plot) - targets the weenies.
Valar Dohaeris (DotN CP: The Wildling Horde, plot) - targets the kneeling chars during dominance phase.

In all fairness, half the resets are from the Core Set and I believe the Red Viper & Valar Dohaeris resets can be skipped on without missing a beat.
A point of note: Blockade & Fear of Winter plots seem to be stallers that nicely combo with the above resets.

i was talking about plot based resets and not just character.

character:

threat

valar

valar D

wilidfire

hand:

Rule

locations:

fleeing

At least the new player will have access to 4 out of 6 (possibly 5 if the said player was a Martell player) of the resets from your list, Lars.

Love the card, Erick! Thanks for designing another great Blackfish.

LetsGoRed said:

Forget I ever said that.

It's (mostly, did it have the non-limited limitation before?) back!

This was the one Winter edition card I mooched off of others when I first started playing and decided I wasn't going to invest in Winter edition cards since they were in the waning months.

Nooooooooooooooooooo!!! Not this card again!

OH

My

God

Stark is really back. At least its House stark only now - I used to run it out of House on occassion (always)

hm...

Guess I'll be using two copies of Maester Cressen in my Baratheon decks from now on.

And the new King Robb? Just compare him with King Stannis.

Even the picture is better...

Jekothalep said:

King Stannis is a better buffer against burn. (Yes, I'm reaching.)