This is why 2.0 is better. Any card that costs anything, so far? Isn't really auto include, in my experience. R2-D2 isn't auto-include on anybody, because while his ability is good, it's still gonna' disable your guns next turn. Maybe you really don't want to do that. This wasn't an issue in 1.0. This being an issue is a genuinely good thing. Makes you weigh the costs.

Trick shot is a very strong EPT I find myself using a lot, but it isn't what you would call an auto include. Just gives you more odds to hit your target, because anything obstructed still gets an extra dice. Which is great! One could ALMOST call it auto-include on Han Solo... But not quite, because there are a myriad of other very very good options to give him.

EDIT: Even Fearless, which seems to me an absolute no-brainer for literally any Fang fighter, can be trumped by other cards due to playstyle. While I believe it foolhardy not to use Fearless and get in in grilles, maybe it wouldn't be as useful in other applications..! Who knows? That's what makes 2.0 so good.

Personally I’m finding myself willing to do more exploration and fills with EPT’s vs Building around Pilot/EPT combos. Given my preference of ship choices (mainly Intercepters) I’m getting value out of so called weaker EPT’s. Marksmanship being one of them.

Another big deal is I see is “it’s not what it was” mentality. I’m thankful for that honestly. It’s back to learning curves and flexibility and unpredictability. One the the game lost especially at a competitive leveling 1.0. I think one thing the EPT’s with the current limited selection is doing is showing how dependent players were one those EPT’s. They are now struggling to figure out why use this or that or any EPT, because their staples are gone. It doesn’t make them bad players but it is helping to separate the field some from others who were used to trying things outside the box.

You know what I like about this? Non-EPT pilots are actually worth flying now, where in 1.0 (barring a handful of special cases like Lothal+Fenn with an even crazier combo backing them) they weren't.

I kinda like that Talents aren't super powerful.

I mean, if Han Solo Gunner's text was on a Talent anyone could take, that'd be wicked strong, but it'd also be wicked boring. Meanwhile, generically powerful stuff like Outmaneuver is wicked expensive, while cheap stuff like Crack Shot, Trick Shot, Predator have fairly tough conditions for their use. Juke probably overperforms some. With Phantoms and Defenders getting the actions to power them easily, and enemy action economy (thus focus tokens) being a lot more precious, Juke is hitting harder than it ever has (even if it hasn't changed at all from 1e).

imo Juke and outmaneuver stand out in 2.0. probably because they are just generally more useful and I can see them actually doing something a repeatedly over the course of a game.

FFG will need to work hard/harder to maintain this as more expansions are released. I suspect FFG are erring in the side of caution with EPT's which is good.

What is interesting is generic ships have gotten a boost simply by the EPTs being balanced/less powerful. Its true to say that you can create a decent squad without any EPT's at all. This was possible in 1.0 as well but in general upgrades were required to be competitive at tournaments with a few 'surprise' lists popping up now and then that were all generics eg. 5 cheap x-wings

Anyone who says Expert Handling is bad clearly doesn't fly ships with red barrel rolls. That thing is amazing for Y-Wings and ARCs.

7 minutes ago, PhantomFO said:

Anyone who says Expert Handling is bad clearly doesn't fly ships with red barrel rolls. That thing is amazing for Y-Wings and ARCs.

its true, i havent flown Y-wings in 2.0. They havent made any of my squads yet. Scum player. Spoiled for choice of ships. Fang fighers, hawks and firesprays are keeping my y-wings parked in the hangar for now.

14 minutes ago, PhantomFO said:

Anyone who says Expert Handling is bad clearly doesn't fly ships with red barrel rolls. That thing is amazing for Y-Wings and ARCs.

If reload worked on upgrade charges this would be out and out evil:

Hired Gun (34)
Expert Handling (2)
Ion Cannon Turret (6)
Veteran Turret Gunner (8)
R4 Astromech (2)
Afterburners (8)

Total: 60

View in Yet Another Squad Builder 2.0

1 hour ago, Da_Brown_Bomber said:

What is interesting is generic ships have gotten a boost simply by the EPTs being balanced/less powerful.

I hate to be all negative and killjoy-y, but I feel compelled to remind people that most EPTs in the beginning of 1st were't great either, and generics were king. So much so that part of the power creep started because people complained about never being able to be competitive with the iconic, named pilots.

42 minutes ago, Forgottenlore said:

I hate to be all negative and killjoy-y, but I feel compelled to remind people that most EPTs in the beginning of 1st were't great either, and generics were king. So much so that part of the power creep started because people complained about never being able to be competitive with the iconic, named pilots.

back in wave 1-3 the ship choices were amazing becuase we were tired of just flying ties and xwings. 2.0 gives you the ships to build with. the EPTs are really gravy on top. At first the falcon didnt seem playable at competitive level - too many points in one ship wasnt going to work or was it? . with the addition of Awings, Intercepters, Slave1 and Falcon things became more interesting and then with wave3 adding hawk, B-Wing,Bomber and Lambda it really felt like the game was hitting its straps. imo this was the best time to be playing.

wave 1 swarm tactics was king. wave 2 gave us Push the Limit although it didnt really become a really broken on Soontir yet, that was not far off. Vet instincts was also wave 2 but i think the imp of initiative was still developing.

i guess like other players who have been here since wave1 i am still adapting to the new building blocks. its a case of forget everything you know. 2.0 is a diff game.

It's not really a bad thing though. I feel like they did a good job making every upgrade in the game situational or cost 10+ points. I think the fact that every single ship in the game now has access to a talent upgrade and a majority on their generics means they need to keep the power level reigned in.

Frankly, I'm more than happy to not have the "auto-include" talent upgrades that 1.0 had. The game seems to have more emphasis on actual piloting than simply having the best net-list.

Well, a lot of folk said 1e needed to be revised due to power creep. SO maybe that's WHY these 2e EPT's are 'underwhelming'..

Juke is too powerful.

Imperial bias.

32 minutes ago, Schu81 said:

Juke is too powerful.

Imperial bias.

Just you wait... I've got plans for juke e-wings.

It’s not the juke is too powerful, it’s just that juke is very familiar.

Juke is also one of the few epts that work in the full arc, and bullseyes are scary and new.

That said, we’re only really seeing juke regularly on two platforms, plus the occasional 88C and Jyn lists. Defenders run juke because of Full Throtle, though they need all the offense they can get to make up for their absurd price. Juke hardly makes them oppressive. Phantoms also run Juke because of Stygium Array, but that whole combo collapses as soon as they spend their evade because of how reliant they are on the re-cloak. Phantoms are certainly good, but again, hardly oppressive.

Again, nobody else is really running Juke, so I disagree that it is too strong.

Aside from obvious combos, like Fearless Boba, Trick Shot/Outrider Dash, and Juke Defenders, I like that there aren't must-have, go-to EPTs like PtL and VI. Everything feels like it might be viable in the right list.

1 minute ago, StriderZessei said:

Aside from obvious combos, like Fearless Boba, Trick Shot/Outrider Dash, and Juke Defenders, I like that there aren't must-have, go-to EPTs like PtL and VI. Everything feels like it might be viable in the right list.

This. Second Edition had more viable EPTs on day one than First Edition had after six years.

On 10/6/2018 at 10:48 PM, Cuz05 said:

I'd be tempted to say they're mostly all strong but situational....

Considering they're all pretty cheap compared to 1.0, I'm very happy with them.

I do miss Expertise, not that I want that OP nonsense back, but if it would just passively convert 1 eye to a hit I'd consider it in a couple of my builds. Like for 2 or 3pt on Lt Kestal for e.g.

How would this only be worth 2-3pts?

You are asking for a card that says

”While attacking you may change 1 Focus result to a hit result”

That is worth at least 8pts in second edition, more if you can double shot. Fearless basically does the same thing (blank instead of focus) for 3pts with all the hoops to go through. The Force Crew/Gunners which admittedly can use it on defence too and often have another ability are all at least 12pts

I’m pretty happy they haven’t made a card like this so far.

If they do make it though make it like Predator. Bullseye only. That could pull the cost down.

As for the OP, you list a lot of strong cards which means the Talenh slot probably isn’t that underwhelming. I think the main thing is that Talents aren’t really auto include anymore and players aren’t forced into taking ships that have the slot to compete. They kept the slot off the Punisher and Lambda but both ships are still very strong.

We also have a lot less than we used to. If you consider the pool of EPTs in 1.0 and then look at how many were used (a much smaller percentage), I kind of like where we are now. Daredevil is probably the only Talent that is unlikely to see any play, but the things you can do with that card are pretty insane. Everything has a use, but it depends on if you want to play into that. No one is punished by not taking them and finding a way to get the best out of them is part of the game.

Predator for example has been hugely rewarding to fly with Soontir. Lining up bullseye just feels good.

The Talent slot feels way more balanced than the Force Power slot too where you have one contender and 3 super situational cards.

Interesting points DA. something else to keep in mind is that FFG has left plenty of scope for new EPT's. Right now the pool is small and as you alluded EPT's are actually less required to be competitive.

FFG is really working hard to keep the game balanced. The biggest lesson they learned from 1.0's power creep.

There is still quite a bit of playing required to find what works in your squads. In general Id say there is a move away from upgrades on small ships and there is a push for more generics. This can be seen in the costs of ace pilots and pilots with force abilities... I really think they are holding back some game breaking talents for the force users that will be released over time (and with a suitably hefty points cost).

1 hour ago, DodgingArcs said:

How would this only be worth 2-3pts?

You are asking for a card that says

”While attacking you may change 1 Focus result to a hit result”

That is worth at least 8pts in second edition, more if you can double shot. Fearless basically does the same thing (blank instead of focus) for 3pts with all the hoops to go through. The Force Crew/Gunners which admittedly can use it on defence too and often have another ability are all at least 12pts

I’m pretty happy they haven’t made a card like this so far.

Well, when you put it like that, I wholeheartedly agree

Though I wasn't exactly asking for that unlimited effect, the stress restriction wouldn't reign it in much. It does go to show how powerful 1.0 cards were and how much more balanced things are now.

7 hours ago, HolySorcerer said:

It’s not the juke is too powerful, it’s just that juke is very familiar.

Juke is also one of the few epts that work in the full arc, and bullseyes are scary and new.

That said, we’re only really seeing juke regularly on two platforms, plus the occasional 88C and Jyn lists. Defenders run juke because of Full Throtle, though they need all the offense they can get to make up for their absurd price. Juke hardly makes them oppressive. Phantoms also run Juke because of Stygium Array, but that whole combo collapses as soon as they spend their evade because of how reliant they are on the re-cloak. Phantoms are certainly good, but again, hardly oppressive.

Again, nobody else is really running Juke, so I disagree that it is too strong.

Palob says "No Juke for You"

4 minutes ago, Hugeman said:

Palob says "No Juke for You"

As do Jam, Jamming Beams and Freelance Slicer.

Yea, Juke is basically an auto-include on Defenders and Phantoms at the moment.

Other than that, I don't find myself using any EPTs, and when I do it's typically just throwing Trick Shot onto a pilot because why not? I remember when everyone was worried that Force Users not having access to EPTs was gonna be a huge opportunity cost, but really it seems like Force Users haven't missed out on anything.