On 10/2/2018 at 1:53 PM, RalfieT said:

The back-and-forth flipping of DPs seems a bit meaningless to me. Feels less like a destiny point and more like a hot potato.

I'm intrigued by this observation; can you elaborate or provide an example?

11 hours ago, themensch said:

I'm intrigued by this observation; can you elaborate or provide an example?

Well, just because DP seem more like a pendulum rather that a resource. Why would a player use it if he knows he’d be creating a dark DP that could bite him in the rear later?

Also, if players simply get light DPs when the GM flips a dark one, doesn’t that feel kinda unearned? I think if they’re given out freely for good RP they’d actually be a reinforcement.

But that only works if there are no strings attached. If every DP can be flipped to dark DP, the player feels like he’s simply creating more pendulums by playing good RP, rather than getting a reward for it.

I actually also have a follow up question. Don’t players get a maximum of 2 DPs per session, or am I misunderstanding the rules? They just roll 1 force dice, right? That seems so limiting. Most players are gonna have 1 DP for the entire session, and a lot of the time that single DP is gonna be locked as dark. No wonder people don’t use it. I’m gonna have them roll 2 force dice PLUS hand out non-flippable DPs for good RP. I wanna see 3-5 DP tokens per player on the table.

2 minutes ago, RalfieT said:

Well, just because DP seem more like a pendulum rather that a resource. Why would a player use it if he knows he’d be creating a dark DP that could bite him in the rear later?

Also, if players simply get light DPs when the GM flips a dark one, doesn’t that feel kinda unearned? I think if they’re given out freely for good RP they’d actually be a reinforcement.

But that only works if there are no strings attached. If every DP can be flipped to dark DP, the player feels like he’s simply creating more pendulums by playing good RP, rather than getting a reward for it.

I actually also have a follow up question. Don’t players get a maximum of 2 DPs per session, or am I misunderstanding the rules? They just roll 1 force dice, right? That seems so limiting. Most players are gonna have 1 DP for the entire session, and a lot of the time that single DP is gonna be locked as dark. No wonder people don’t use it. I’m gonna have them roll 2 force dice PLUS hand out non-flippable DPs for good RP. I wanna see 3-5 DP tokens per player on the table.

I think I see where some of this might be coming from (if I’m following your post accurately). It almost seems like you’re under the impression that a player may only use the DP that he/she generated from their roll. But, (house rule we used playing in the store aside) the Destiny pool is a community resource. So, if there are, say, 5 light side DPs on the table, any given player has access to all 5. Also, a Force using player who has reached Light Side Paragon status automatically generates 1 LS DP, in addition to whatever he/she rolls for Destiny.

That back-and-forth between dark and light is meant to simulate the ebb and flow of the Force; sometimes, the Force is with you, sometimes it’s not.

4 minutes ago, Nytwyng said:

(...) the Destiny pool is a community resource. So, if there are, say, 5 light side DPs on the table, any given player has access to all 5.

Ah, I did misunderstand the rules. Ty for clarifying!

3 hours ago, RalfieT said:

Well, just because DP seem more like a pendulum rather that a resource. Why would a player use it if he knows he’d be creating a dark DP that could bite him in the rear later?

Also, if players simply get light DPs when the GM flips a dark one, doesn’t that feel kinda unearned? I think if they’re given out freely for good RP they’d actually be a reinforcement.

But that only works if there are no strings attached. If every DP can be flipped to dark DP, the player feels like he’s simply creating more pendulums by playing good RP, rather than getting a reward for it.

I actually also have a follow up question. Don’t players get a maximum of 2 DPs per session, or am I misunderstanding the rules? They just roll 1 force dice, right? That seems so limiting. Most players are gonna have 1 DP for the entire session, and a lot of the time that single DP is gonna be locked as dark. No wonder people don’t use it. I’m gonna have them roll 2 force dice PLUS hand out non-flippable DPs for good RP. I wanna see 3-5 DP tokens per player on the table.

Okay, I see where you're coming from I think. It sounds like there's the perception that the use of Destiny Points is adversarial, is that true? If not, then the rest of what I'm posting will probably not be applicable but I do hope that someone benefits from it.

I know that as a GM I feel bad somehow by flipping a Dark Side point over, as in theory, I am supposed to be the players' biggest fan. However, after listening to a lot of live plays and the advice of other GMs, I hope I've been able to conclude that this isn't an adversarial tool, but a means of ratcheting up a story - could something interesting happen here that would turn a mundane check into something more? Heroes failing is part of the dramatic process and usually we all clearly remember the bad things that happen in a story as well as the good things.

The perception of the GM representing the Dark Side and the players representing the Light Side does cater to that adversarial mentality, so I'm not surprised that this perception exists, particularly since a lot of folks come to this system from systems/games/tables where the relationship between GM and player was much more adversarial.

There's always a cost to flipping a point, it should never happen in a narrative or mechanical vacuum - but the cost is not so great that it should warrant any hoarding on either side. However, that problem has been described on more than one occasion and I'm sure there are valid times to use that tactic although it feels cheesy to me as this game isn't really about winning or losing via rolls, it's about winning because people are having a good time and conflict makes for good stories. If everything is easy, I'd imagine most folks would find that boring.

@Nytwyng clarified the communal nature of the pool splendidly.

My personal rule of thumb about whether I should or shouldn't spend a dark side Destiny Point is to ask the question "Could something interesting for the story occur if the player rolls a Despair?" If the answer is no, then I refrain from spending the Destiny Point.

Reason for this is I recall seeing a long while back a statistical analysis someone did of the different dice and their chances of generating failures and/or threat, and the difference between a purple difficulty die and a red challenge die was fairly minor, with the challenge die's main effect being to introduce the chance of a Despair result.

Unfortunately, if you've got a player who feels they have to spend a Destiny Point on every roll, even of the roll itself is fairly minor or that the consequences for failure aren't game-ending (I'm very much of the "a failed roll never stops the story from progressing" mindset of GM'ing), that makes things a little tougher because the player side is often spending Destiny Points faster than you can, and sometimes as the GM you may not be left with a choice if you want your players to have an Destiny Points to spend for when things are getting rough.

3 hours ago, RalfieT said:

I think if they’re given out freely for good RP they’d actually be a reinforcement.

This is something that I actually do -- when the party is RPing like a boss, then I will sometimes flip a DP their way, especially if they're mostly my way. Will sometimes do this if they're just being triumphantly successful -- the Force is obviously with them!

Also, the table tends to ignore DPs until I call attention to them, so there's that, too.

I had exactly this same question early in my last campaign. I actually discovered two things along the way playing RAW.

1) The destiny pool becomes a lot more of a valued resource once the PCs start to get talents that use them. This is especially true if they need 2 DPs to activate something like a signature ability. So late campaign DP use is different than early campaign.

2) Your players will unwittingly take cues from you and how often you use DPs. If you flip a DP every time they do, then they will do the same. If you use them sparingly, so will they. Partly, think of it this way. If they flip a DP, but you do not do so in return, they will start to see their own DP pool as a more limited resource since they won't know if they will get more.

Personally, I don't mind the ebb and flow. But I like to use them to ratchet up tension on key moments or if I want them to fail so that my story stays on track. I also use them on relatively benign checks, just to keep some light side points in the pool for them to use.