13 hours ago, JJ48 said:

I've never seen Independence Day, but it doesn't sound completely unreasonable. The craft doesn't have to make it in intact, so long as enough of it or its melted ruin makes it in going fast enough to mess things up. Furthermore, whether he had a chance or not is less important than Finn thinking he had a chance, even if he was wrong. Speaking of heat, though,

That sounds utterly ridiculous, the equivalent of saying that putting your head in a shark's mouth will maybe break it's teeth. But you really don't have to take our word for it that it wouldn't have worked, RJ says as much on the commentary and intended it to be a futile exercise.

14 hours ago, JJ48 said:

Finn said his job while at Starkiller Base was sanitation. That makes it sound like it's more of his actual title, the equivalent of if he had said his job were radio operator or quartermaster. I'm sure he had combat training, like all soldiers, but that doesn't change the fact that he was, for all intents and purposes, a janitor until he got moved to an actual combat unit. (Though, even having combat training doesn't really qualify him for piloting a speeder any more than being a janitor does.)

As an example, I'm sure my grandfather had his share of chores to do while serving in the navy. He still said his job was medic, rather than kitchen detail or deck-mopping.

Just wondering, do you really think he was a janitor with some combat training or a Stormtrooper with some sanitation duties?

Because, when he admits to Rey that he was a Stormtrooper:

''I'm not Resistance. I'm not a hero. I'm a stormtrooper. Like all of them, I was taken from a family I'll never know. And raised to do one thing... ''

What was the one thing he was raised to do? To kill, or to mop the floor?

Also, it might not be in the movie, but in the books it was said that he was officer material by Phasma herself. That sounds to me like he was one of the best of his class.

4 hours ago, redxavier said:

That sounds utterly ridiculous, the equivalent of saying that putting your head in a shark's mouth will maybe break it's teeth. But you really don't have to take our word for it that it wouldn't have worked, RJ says as much on the commentary and intended it to be a futile exercise.

I should really watch it with the commentaries. I tried once, but then I was like ‘hey, stop talking, I like that scene!’ So I switched back to watching the movie without the commentaries.

26 minutes ago, Red Castle said:

Also, it might not be in the movie, but in the books it was said that he was officer material by Phasma herself. That sounds to me like he was one of the best of his class.

That‘s the same book I mentioned (Before the awakening). I should have emphasized my point more:

the book literally explains that all Stormtrooper cadets had such duties

Sorry for the double post, but that‘s why the question of janitor bugs me so much. The information is literally in a book. Not you, @JJ48, but those youtubers who manage to slip in this point are either dishonest because they do so despite better knowledge, or they are lazy because they don‘t even bother to look into one of their criticisms.

Because that one point is slipped into basically every TLJ suxx video...

1 hour ago, GreenDragoon said:

Sorry for the double post, but that‘s why the question of janitor bugs me so much. The information is literally in a book. Not you, @JJ48, but those youtubers who manage to slip in this point are either dishonest because they do so despite better knowledge, or they are lazy because they don‘t even bother to look into one of their criticisms.

Because that one point is slipped into basically every TLJ suxx video...

I never bothered to watch those videos as I think they are just clickbaits and I prefer an actual discussion, but is it really a criticism of the movie? Because it sounds like they are reaching!

2 minutes ago, Red Castle said:

I never bothered to watch those videos as I think they are just clickbaits and I prefer an actual discussion, but is it really a criticism of the movie? Because it sounds like they are reaching!

People have drained every well and mined every vein looking for criticisms. My favorites are:

-Lasers don't curve! (As if it was anything but a style choice)

-That's not how the force works! (As if there's been some immutable set of force powers that every movie has adhered to)

And

-That's now how Luke would behave!(As if watching collectively 6 hours of a person's life in their late teens and early 20s will inform you how they'll behave in their 60s)

That's why I've said many times, a Star Wars fan is the last person you should ask if a Star Wars movie is good. When asked, we have an extremely hard time separating the movie as a movie, from how we felt about it as Star Wars fans.

2 hours ago, Sekac said:

-That's not how the force works! (As if there's been some immutable set of force powers that every movie has adhered to)

To each their own of course, but I personnally really love that they went back with the Force being mysterious, mystical and spiritual in the Sequel trilogy.

In the Original Trilogy, there was a lot of similarities between the Force and the Faith. The Force, like God, was everywhere, surrounding us and binding us. To use it, you had to be receptive to it, to believe in it, to have Faith. Han was the atheist that didn't believe while Luke had limited Faith. If you believe in it, it would help you and guide you, like with Luke's torpedo shot. Would it have been Han, he would not have made the shot, because he simply could not believe in the Force. It was interacting with our life mysteriously, just like some would believe God to do. The Force works in mysterous way. The Force powers was more about altering our environment (telekinesis, sensing our surrounding) and seeing part of the future, our Destiny (the way that the Force, or God, has written for us. Our purpose in the universe) than physical one like in the Prequels (moving faster, enhancing our reflexes).

Then the Prequel came and he decided to add genetic to it. What always irks me about it was that now you did not simply had to believe, to have Faith, to use the Force. You also had to have it in you in the first place. It made the Force more elitist, only reserved to a special few. And since the Force was more physical, it made the Jedi look like super soldiers. Not only was the Force elitist, but it was now more powerful.

Then came the Sequel trilogy, and while the Force is very powerful, probably more so than in the OT, it went back to being mystical. Rey is strong with the Force, and learn fast, because she believe, she has Faith. The powers are back to altering the surroundings than physical (lightsaber combats, for all the strenght that Rey and Kylo shows, are much more down to earth, there is no Force jump everywhere and fast reflexes, like it was in the Original Trilogy). They also went back, with Rey's origins and the young boy at the end of TLJ, to the Force being potencially available to anyone. That's actually the beauty of Rey being the daughter of nobodies. It gets rid of the genetical elitism; the Force belongs to everyone, not just the Jedi. The Force works in mysterious way again, and now that Anakin balanced it, it seems to want to keep the balance. Powerful light, powerful darkness.

2 hours ago, Sekac said:

-That's now how Luke would behave!(As if watching collectively 6 hours of a person's life in their late teens and early 20s will inform you how they'll behave in their 60s)

For those that think that Luke has been mishandled and disrespected, I wonder what they think about Yoda in the Original Trilogy.

2 hours ago, Red Castle said:

To each their own of course, but I personnally really love that they went back with the Force being mysterious, mystical and spiritual in the Sequel trilogy.

I was referring to Leia's space walk and Luke projecting across the galaxy. Two common complaints there are that the force isn't capable of doing those things.

In reality, nearly every Star Wars installment has added new force powers. People should be equally outraged by the Emperor's force lightning. The force didn't work that way either.

Until it did.

It's also interesting how the same criteria are not applied to Rogue One for example. I like the movie, especially from Eadu onwards. It's very indulging and almost the opposite of TLJ in that regard.

But the movie in general and the ending in particular is also in a sense utterly ridiculous. Like a video game. The Master Switch? Really, a console on the beach, by coincidence right where the rebels are? With a literal switch? And Chirrut can just walk out to pull it because he trusts the force? That's not how the force works
Aligning the antenna has just two positions? And it's aligned on the very top of the tower after beating the final boss?
And what about that trapdoor that regularly opens and closes to test Jyn's timing?

The movie is full of them. They don't bother me. But it's interesting that they do not bother the TLJ-haters either. Which - imo - turns cause and effect on its head and demonstrates that these nitpickings are rationalizations of disliking TLJ, but not the foundation of that disliking.

8 hours ago, Sekac said:

I was referring to Leia's space walk and Luke projecting across the galaxy. Two common complaints there are that the force isn't capable of doing those things.

uhhh... arn't they realising that Leia is not even using a new power but simply good old telekinesis to pull herself toward the ship? Same power that has been used in Star Wars since The Empire Strike Back....

5 hours ago, Red Castle said:

uhhh... arn't they realising that Leia is not even using a new power but simply good old telekinesis to pull herself toward the ship? Same power that has been used in Star Wars since The Empire Strike Back....

Shrug.

My guess is that it's more the Hollywood myth that when you're exposed to the vacuum of space, your lungs are sucked out your eyes and you're frozen solid or some such.

...so, this is how far the defence of The Last Jedi has fallen, is it? This is the level those who gloss over it's flaws are willing to stoop to?

Amazing.

17 hours ago, Red Castle said:

For those that think that Luke has been mishandled and disrespected, I wonder what they think about Yoda in the Original Trilogy.

We had no context for Yoda on his first appearance in the OT. We'd never seen the character before, Lue was clearly expecting something over than a pointy-eared senile green midget, and - as became almost immediately apparent - the initial impression made by Yoda was simply a test for Luke. There was more to the character than initially met the eye.

Lue, on the other hand, already had three films of character development and an entire hero's journey behind him before he had his character assassinated in The Last Jedi. This wasn't an initial impression, a test or a trick - it was an abrupt, out-of-nowhere 180 backflip on his existing character, and the reason given why was such a flimsy asspull that it caused the actor concerned to question it.

Your point has zero merit.

15 hours ago, Sekac said:

I was referring to Leia's space walk and Luke projecting across the galaxy. Two common complaints there are that the force isn't capable of doing those things..

In the case of Leia's space walk, it's not so much whether "the Force is capable of doing such things" as it is a combination of whether "the Force is capable of doing such things" and "since when the character is capable of doing such things?" and "how did the character survive a: the initial explosion, b: the explosive decompression and the vacuum of space". Preceded of course by "how is a single TIE capable of doing such things to a capital ship" and followed swiftly by "how did Leia, having been blasted out of the bridge of her starship and floating around outside it totally unprotected for a considerable period of time, manage to direct herself back into exact same spot she was violently ejected from when the starship itself is still moving?" The entire scene is an egregious asspull, with the Mary Poppins spacewalk being just the most hilarious - and unnecessary - part of it.

Your point has zero merit.

7 hours ago, Red Castle said:

uhhh... arn't they realising that Leia is not even using a new power but simply good old telekinesis to pull herself toward the ship? Same power that has been used in Star Wars since The Empire Strike Back....

Mmmm-hmm. Telekinesis. OK. So you're comparing Vader mentally chucking hunks of machinery at Luke, Luke lifting a couple of boulders in the air and Yoda lifting an X-Wing out of a swamp to Leia - who's previously depicted Force abilities consisted solely of vaguely sensing whether a closely-related character was in trouble - miraculously surviving both an explosive decompression and the cold, dark vacuum of space, then propelling herself through said vacuum back into her moving starship?

It's not the same thing at all. Your point has zero merit.

1 hour ago, Sekac said:

My guess is that it's more the Hollywood myth that when you're exposed to the vacuum of space, your lungs are sucked out your eyes and you're frozen solid or some such.

NASA will be delighted to learn that it's a myth that people aren't harmed by being exposed to the vacuum of space. It'll save them billions in safety testing.

Your point has zero merit.

11 hours ago, GreenDragoon said:

The movie is full of them. They don't bother me. But it's interesting that they do not bother the TLJ-haters either. Which - imo - turns cause and effect on its head and demonstrates that these nitpickings are rationalizations of disliking TLJ, but not the foundation of that disliking.

It's a beautiful example of a strawman fallacy mind you, and an asspull of near Ruin Johnson levels, but resorting to logical fallacies really doesn't help your position.

For what it's worth, I enjoyed Rogue One. I think it's probably the only worthwhile addition to the Star War canon Disney have made so far. But no, it's certainly not immune to criticism because of that and yes, the extremely convenient happenings during the beach battle on Scarif were both distracting and frustrating when watching. The beach battle was dragged out for far too long as well.

4 minutes ago, FTS Gecko said:

For what it's worth, I enjoyed Rogue One

Oh, of course you did.

1 hour ago, FTS Gecko said:

We had no context for Yoda on his first appearance in the OT. We'd never seen the character before, Lue was clearly expecting something over than a pointy-eared senile green midget, and - as became almost immediately apparent - the initial impression made by Yoda was simply a test for Luke. There was more to the character than initially met the eye.

Lue, on the other hand, already had three films of character development and an entire hero's journey behind him before he had his character assassinated in The Last Jedi. This wasn't an initial impression, a test or a trick - it was an abrupt, out-of-nowhere 180 backflip on his existing character, and the reason given why was such a flimsy asspull that it caused the actor concerned to question it.

That's my point.

Since there was no background on Yoda, when we watched Episode 5 for the first time, we didn't question the origin of Yoda, if it made sense or not that he was an hermit in exile for so long. We accepted it and still respected Yoda as the wise old man he was. We had no expectation at all regarding the character. But then came the prequels, and we saw Yoda prior to original trilogy. We saw that not only he was a great Jedi (something we already knew) but he was also at the head of the Jedi council. We even saw that he's a real badass with a lightsaber (something that I personnally never liked). He even went toe to toe with Palpatine. We even learned that the Jedi are in part responsible for the rise to power of Palpatine. And what does Yoda do? After confronting Palpatine just once, he went into exile, to hide for more than 20 years. He never joined the fight to take down the Empire. When Luke came to see him, he didn't even want to train him. So what was he really waiting for on Dagobah except to die with a blind eye on what is currently happening in the galaxy, in part because of him? Now that we know his background, shouldn't we revivist our opinion on Yoda in Episode 5? Do you still see him as a wise master? Do you think his exile makes sense?

So one should wonder: if The Last Jedi came before the Original trilogy, that the first impression we had from Luke was from The Last Jedi, would some people still think that Luke is just a weak old man? If people were to saw the Original trilogy after Episode 8, would they think that OT Luke is out of character, that Luke should be different? Or accept and even like it, just like they do with Yoda. Him and Yoda pretty much went through the same thing, the same guilt. Do you think that one version (prequels and OT) of Yoda makes no sense in comparaison to the other? Or do you like both version, accepting the evolution of the character and actually thinking it makes sense.

It's pretty crazy what expectation and nostalgia can do.

1 hour ago, FTS Gecko said:

Mmmm-hmm. Telekinesis. OK. So you're comparing Vader mentally chucking hunks of machinery at Luke, Luke lifting a couple of boulders in the air and Yoda lifting an X-Wing out of a swamp to Leia - who's previously depicted Force abilities consisted solely of vaguely sensing whether a closely-related character was in trouble - miraculously surviving both an explosive decompression and the cold, dark vacuum of space, then propelling herself through said vacuum back into her moving starship?

It's not the same thing at all. Your point has zero merit.

As for Leia, since you seems to like video so much, I'll just let you watch a part of this video. The part about Leia start at 7:05. Don't mind his humour, I don't think the guy is really funny, but his videos are good.

21 hours ago, Red Castle said:

Then the Prequel came and he decided to add genetic to it.

"The Force runs strong in your family..."

Lucas introduced the concept of Force affinity being genetic way back in the Original Trilogy itself. This is part of why I thought the whole "Jedi don't get married and have kids" bit in the Prequels was just plain stupid and artificial to force the plot.

2 minutes ago, Ambaryerno said:

"The Force runs strong in your family..."

Lucas introduced the concept of Force affinity being genetic way back in the Original Trilogy itself. This is part of why I thought the whole "Jedi don't get married and have kids" bit in the Prequels was just plain stupid and artificial to force the plot.

That’s a good point. I guess what bothers me then is how much emphasis he put on the genetic importance and made it into a ´you have it or you don’t’ kinda thing, not accessible to everyone.

On 10/20/2018 at 4:25 AM, redxavier said:

That sounds utterly ridiculous, the equivalent of saying that putting your head in a shark's mouth will maybe break it's teeth. But you really don't have to take our word for it that it wouldn't have worked, RJ says as much on the commentary and intended it to be a futile exercise.

Whether it could work or not is far less important than whether Finn believes it will work. It doesn't have to be possible, as long as Finn thinks there's some chance of damaging some component or even shorting something out.

Also, I would be somewhat cautious with appealing to director intention. Directors have an idea in mind for what they intend to portray, but what we're discussing is what was actually portrayed on screen. Sometimes, those may not be the same thing. (Not saying that applies in this particular instance, just a general point about appealing to director intention.)

On 10/20/2018 at 8:25 AM, Red Castle said:

Just wondering, do you really think he was a janitor with some combat training or a Stormtrooper with some sanitation duties?

Are these two options mutually exclusive? I said he was a janitor; not that he wasn't a Stormtrooper. Would you ask a pastor on a military base, "Are you a Marine or a chaplain?"

On 10/20/2018 at 8:25 AM, Red Castle said:

Also, it might not be in the movie, but in the books it was said that he was officer material by Phasma herself. That sounds to me like he was one of the best of his class.

"Officer material" certainly means he's skilled, but doesn't necessarily mean he's a great fighter (officers generally need more in the line of planning and leadership). Moreover, none of this addresses my point, which was: why is he piloting one of the skimmer things? I have no problem with him having combat training, being a Stormtrooper and all, but it seems odd to me to place him in a craft that he doesn't seem to know how to fly instead of in the trench with some of the other soldiers.

13 hours ago, GreenDragoon said:

But the movie in general and the ending in particular is also in a sense utterly ridiculous. Like a video game. The Master Switch? Really, a console on the beach, by coincidence right where the rebels are? With a literal switch? And Chirrut can just walk out to pull it because he trusts the force? That's not how the force works
Aligning the antenna has just two positions? And it's aligned on the very top of the tower after beating the final boss?
And what about that trapdoor that regularly opens and closes to test Jyn's timing?

Clearly, the Empire built their base at Scarif after watching old episodes of Galaxy Quest.

3 hours ago, FTS Gecko said:

Lue, on the other hand, already had three films of character development and an entire hero's journey behind him before he had his character assassinated in The Last Jedi. This wasn't an initial impression, a test or a trick - it was an abrupt, out-of-nowhere 180 backflip on his existing character gradual change over the course of 40 years, and the reason given why was such a flimsy asspull that it caused the actor concerned to question it.

Your point has zero merit.

There, I helped you sound like you know what you're talking about a little bit.

Are you ever going to drop the "Mark Hammill hates what they did with Luke" point? I know you know it's not real. He had reservations, but what satisfied with the result. The actor himself has clarified this and I know people have pointed that out to you before. You know it's untrue and yet you keep saying it anyway.

You're desperate.

3 hours ago, FTS Gecko said:

NASA will be delighted to learn that it's a myth that people aren't harmed by being exposed to the vacuum of space. It'll save them billions in safety testing.

Your point has zero merit.

Hey look, you're giving us strawman arguments too, ain't hypocrisy grand?!

Please show me where I said you'd be "unharmed" in space.

Since you are clearly a student of the Hollywood school of science, I know it may be a shock, but you don't die immediately in space.

1 hour ago, JJ48 said:

Are these two options mutually exclusive? I said he was a janitor; not that he wasn't a Stormtrooper. Would you ask a pastor on a military base, "Are you a Marine or a chaplain?"

Well no, and if you notice, both functions are in both of my options.

What I find weird though is the emphasis you put on his past in sanitation, as if it was a more important part of his life than say, being trained to kill since his young age.

Or again, what do you think he really meant when he said that he was raised to do one thing?

1 hour ago, JJ48 said:

I have no problem with him having combat training, being a Stormtrooper and all, but it seems odd to me to place him in a craft that he doesn't seem to know how to fly instead of in the trench with some of the other soldiers.

I already answered this question earlier, but maybe you didn't see my reply since it was during the discussion.

With the attack on the Dreadnought destroying all the bombers and Kylo destroying the Raddus Hangar right when pilots were getting into their fighters, it's easy to believe that there is not a lot of pilot left, probably less than there is Crait Speeders to pilot. So, the Resistance doesn't have the luxury to only send pilots to attack, other person will have to do. Since it is Finn's idea to go out and destroy the cannon, I don't think it is hard to believe that he would volunteer to go out.

But also, one should not forget that it is a movie. Our heroes need to do heroics and move the story forward, not sit in the background. If we were to start wondering why it is our hero doing the heroics, we could ask ourselves why is it Luke leading the trench run attack when Biggs and Wedge have been part of the Rebellion longer and probably already prove their skills. Why send the rookie as the leader? Or why was it Lando leading the attack on the Death Star? He was part of the Rebellion for less than a year, probably spending most of his time looking for Han. Why not give the title to Wedge instead? He was part of the destruction of the first Death Star, I think he would be a good candidate to do it.

1 hour ago, JJ48 said:

Are these two options mutually exclusive? I said he was a janitor; not that he wasn't a Stormtrooper. Would you ask a pastor on a military base, "Are you a Marine or a chaplain?"

Come on, now you‘re just arguing on this point for argument‘s sake. He was a soldier with janitor duties, as all cadets have it. It‘s just no question.

2 hours ago, JJ48 said:

Clearly, the Empire built their base at Scarif after watching old episodes of Galaxy Quest.

Haha, yes. But it‘s definitely ridiculous. And interesting that so many people laud the movie as well made Star Wars - War movie despite all these blunders.

4 hours ago, FTS Gecko said:

It's a beautiful example of a strawman fallacy mind you, and an asspull of near Ruin Johnson levels, but resorting to logical fallacies really doesn't help your position.

You have to help me here. What is the position I‘m misrepresenting, and what position do I ascribe instead?

26 minutes ago, Red Castle said:

Well no, and if you notice, both functions are in both of my options.

What I find weird though is the emphasis you put on his past in sanitation, as if it was a more important part of his life than say, being trained to kill since his young age.

Or again, what do you think he really meant when he said that he was raised to do one thing?

What is sanitation, really, if not killing germs?

8 minutes ago, GreenDragoon said:

Come on, now you‘re just arguing on this point for argument‘s sake. He was a soldier with janitor duties, as all cadets have it. It‘s just no question.

But I don't agree that it was "as all cadets have it". The way he talked about it, it was clearly his primary function during that assignment, not something he occasionally rotated into.

4 minutes ago, JJ48 said:

What is sanitation, really, if not killing germs?

One could say that, but I certainly hope so that it would not be your honest answer to the question: what was the only thing Finn was raised to do?

24 minutes ago, Red Castle said:

One could say that, but I certainly hope so that it would not be your honest answer to the question: what was the only thing Finn was raised to do?

I forget, did he say he was trained only to kill? For the sake of argument, I'll assume he did say that, since it's clearly what you're alluding to.

If this is what he said, it's clearly hyperbole. An army needs more than simple killers in order to function, and even if Finn's sanitation duties were normal cadet duties, that would still be to some extent training in something other than killing.

Instead, I take that statement as a commentary on what Stormtroopers are not trained to do. They don't exist to show mercy or restraint. They don't exist to liberate worlds and help them rebuild. They exist to exterminate the foes of the First Order. However, this doesn't mean that individual roles within the organism can't have more of a supporting function.

Does anyone have the specific scene where he mentions this? It would be much easier to analyze with the exact words and context.