1 minute ago, FTS Gecko said:

Bunk. Garbage. Pure, unadulterated claptrap. Far from "demanding insight and attention", the only thing The Last Jedi demands is that you switch your brain into the off position and just watch the pretty pictures. If you do any more than that, if you engage your faculties for one second or make the slightest attempt to follow what passes for a story you're going to end up swearing at the screen.

Claiming that The Last Jedi is some kind of pseudo-intellectual masterpiece (or even competent, for that matter) is the very height of pretentiousness; it's like trying to argue that Transformers: Revenge Of The Fallen is the pinnacle of cinematography to Roger Freakin' Ebert.

You have long demonstrated just how valuable and insightful your opinions on TLJ are.

8 minutes ago, FTS Gecko said:

Bunk. Garbage. Pure, unadulterated claptrap. Far from "demanding insight and attention", the only thing The Last Jedi demands is that you switch your brain into the off position and just watch the pretty pictures. If you do any more than that, if you engage your faculties for one second or make the slightest attempt to follow what passes for a story you're going to end up swearing at the screen.

Claiming that The Last Jedi is some kind of pseudo-intellectual masterpiece (or even competent, for that matter) is the very height of pretentiousness; it's like trying to argue that Transformers: Revenge Of The Fallen is the pinnacle of cinematography to Roger Freakin' Ebert.

False. I didn’t turn off my brain and didn’t have to swear at the screen. For someone who claims he just wants people to acknowledge his point of view, you seem to make a lot of claims and assumptions for other people. Please treat others as you wish to be.

24 minutes ago, SabineKey said:

False. I didn’t turn off my brain and didn’t have to swear at the screen. For someone who claims he just wants people to acknowledge his point of view, you seem to make a lot of claims and assumptions for other people. Please treat others as you wish to be.

FTS Gecko is right. Anyone trying to claim the "I Gotcha" movie (TLJ) as some intellectual piece of art, is like stating the song "Who Let the Dogs Out?" Is on the level of Mozart.

A few members on here are giving Rian Johnson far too much credit when all he did was take the 4 Acts of ESB and 1 Act of RotJ and made TLJ. For being so much smarter than the rest of us who thought it was Hot Garbage, you fail to see it was in fact a copy just like TFA.

The one undeniable truth though is TLJ has ripped the fan base in half. I'm not sure if it can recover. If Episode 9 is another Box Office failure like Solo, its Box Office appearances may be nearing an end.

15 minutes ago, Zarovichx said:

FTS Gecko is right. Anyone trying to claim the "I Gotcha" movie (TLJ) as some intellectual piece of art, is like stating the song "Who Let the Dogs Out?" Is on the level of Mozart.

A few members on here are giving Rian Johnson far too much credit when all he did was take the 4 Acts of ESB and 1 Act of RotJ and made TLJ. For being so much smarter than the rest of us who thought it was Hot Garbage, you fail to see it was in fact a copy just like TFA.

The one undeniable truth though is TLJ has ripped the fan base in half. I'm not sure if it can recover. If Episode 9 is another Box Office failure like Solo, its Box Office appearances may be nearing an end.

Notice what I called him out on. He was claiming everyone had to turn off their brains to enjoy it, which is obviously not true. You may not like it, but saying that someone can't get the thing they got out of it while crying for others to respect your stance is absurd.

As for ripping it apart, that falls more on the fans than the movie. Why can't you accept others like the movie and read more into it than you do? It's people trying to get others to give their view credence without having the courtesy of giving the other view the same credence.

Let's try an experiment. I'm going to say here and now that someone disliking TLJ is fair and completely up to them as individuals who saw the movie and formed their own opinion on it. They didn't find enough of worth for them in the film and they have every right to think that for themselves.

Now, can you make a similar statement? Can you say that you can accept that people like TLJ and that that is all fine and good? Because that's how you heal the divide in the fan base. And right now, the choice to perpetuate the divide or help heal it is up to you.

57 minutes ago, Zarovichx said:

The one undeniable truth though is TLJ has ripped the fan base in half. I'm not sure if it can recover. If Episode 9 is another Box Office failure like Solo, its Box Office appearances may be nearing an end.

Well, with the failure of Solo and the anthology films being all put on hold for the moment, the franchise's film future is certainly less certain. I suspect that Episode 9 will be a big test. If it underperforms (as it almost certainly will), then I think RJ's trilogy will probably be temporarily shelved as well and Disney will start exploring ways to continue the franchise on the big screen. For as much money as they spent on the IP and for as much licensing as they get out of it, they certainly won't let the big screen go fallow.

Personally speaking, I grew up loving Star Wars. I played all the PC and N64 games, I even read some of the books. I eagerly consumed the CCG and loved learning about the built-world of Star Wars through it, and I played the various miniature games that have come along since the CCG. I've dreamt up my own settings for RPG groups to explore. And while I think the alt-right and harassment-trolling are both indefensible, I vehemently hated TLJ. I though the Prequels sucked, but that was nothing compared to TLJ. At least with the Prequels I left the theater thinking "well, that wasn't great" but still generally enjoyed the experiences and liked all the neat stuff to look at and all the things that had been added to the mythos of Star Wars. But TLJ was profoundly different... it was the first and only Star Wars film that I suffered through the time in the theater and I left the theater with the feeling that either I had simply outgrown Star Wars or that Star Wars was becoming something else that was no longer for me.

I don't begrudge anyone who likes or defends TLJ (to each their own), but I can say that personally I won't be seeing Episode 9 or the RJ trilogy in theaters. The story and setting of the PT just makes me feel like the world of Star Wars has been razed into nothingness, so that time period is basically a blank void in my head-canon (not that the PT has given us much context or world-building to try and make sense of the time period: somehow unexplained we get a bigger, badder Empire with a bigger, badder Sith Lord all out of nowhere with no explanations.... ok). On the other hand, I greatly enjoyed both Rogue One and Solo, so it's not merely the case that I'm curmudgeon that doesn't like anything Disney does.

@AllWingsStandyingBy You've pretty much summed things up for me. I followed the post-RotJ EU up through the end of NJO, which was the first sort of nail in the coffin for me, and I survived the Prequels (although I will curse Nick Gilliard to my dying day, and plan to make pissing on his grave a part of my bucket list). I enjoyed TFA, for all that it adhered too closely to the original film, and Rogue One was very well done, if imperfect. But I walked out of TLJ and for the first time in my life I was disinterested in ever seeing another Star Wars movie. I only caught Solo because the family went together.

1 hour ago, AllWingsStandyingBy said:

At least with the Prequels I left the theater thinking "well, that wasn't great" but still generally enjoyed the experiences and liked all the neat stuff to look at and all the things that had been added to the mythos of Star Wars. But TLJ was profoundly different... it was the first and only Star Wars film that I suffered through the time in the theater and I left the theater with the feeling that either I had simply outgrown Star Wars or that Star Wars was becoming something else that was no longer for me.

Fair enough, though my own experience was almost the opposite. TLJ definitely wasn't my favorite Star Wars movie, but I found it more entertaining than any of the prequels. I'm still holding out hope for Episode IX, too, as most trilogies I've seen, I like the third movie best.

What's the RJ Trilogy you mentioned?

Just now, JJ48 said:

Fair enough, though my own experience was almost the opposite. TLJ definitely wasn't my favorite Star Wars movie, but I found it more entertaining than any of the prequels. I'm still holding out hope for Episode IX, too, as most trilogies I've seen, I like the third movie best.

What's the RJ Trilogy you mentioned?

There was mention a while back that RJ was getting a trilogy of movies to write and direct for Star Wars. This was about the time Jon Favrau was announced to have a series and the show runners for game of thrones had something (can't remember if it was a movie series, or tv). Not sure as to the status of it since Disney announced a slow down on Star Wars movies.

3 minutes ago, JJ48 said:

What's the RJ Trilogy you mentioned?

Rian Johnson was greenlit by Disney for his own Star Wars trilogy of movies. Only thing I have heard about them so far is they have nothing to do with the Skywalker Saga and those characters, so whole new story.

1 minute ago, kris40k said:

Rian Johnson was greenlit by Disney for his own Star Wars trilogy of movies. Only thing I have heard about them so far is they have nothing to do with the Skywalker Saga and those characters, so whole new story.

So it'll be a whole new world?

A new, fantastic point of view?

25 minutes ago, JJ48 said:

So it'll be a whole new world?

A new, fantastic point of view?

The rumor is Rian won't be getting his trilogy because of the fans backlash.

1 hour ago, Ambaryerno said:

@AllWingsStandyingBy You've pretty much summed things up for me. I followed the post-RotJ EU up through the end of NJO, which was the first sort of nail in the coffin for me, and I survived the Prequels (although I will curse Nick Gilliard to my dying day, and plan to make pissing on his grave a part of my bucket list). I enjoyed TFA, for all that it adhered too closely to the original film, and Rogue One was very well done, if imperfect. But I walked out of TLJ and for the first time in my life I was disinterested in ever seeing another Star Wars movie. I only caught Solo because the family went together.

This is my position too. I knew my enjoyment of SW was done after seeing TLJ. I'm also old enough to have seen Empire and Return in the threatres in the 80s. I dressed as Darth for 3 straight Halloweens in grade school.

And truth be told, I mostly like the prequels. At least episodes 1 -3 was original stories and not re-tellings of episodes 4-6 like TFA and TLJ.

2 hours ago, JJ48 said:

So it'll be a whole new world?

A new, fantastic point of view?

Now I just see Soontir Fel and Palpatine on that **** magic carpet.

1 minute ago, kris40k said:

Now I just see Soontir Fel and Palpatine on that **** magic carpet.

Tell me, Baron, when did you last let your heart decide?

6 hours ago, Zarovichx said:

And truth be told, I mostly like the prequels. At least episodes 1 -3 was original stories and not re-tellings of episodes 4-6 like TFA and TLJ.

Indeed, I think the Prequels could have been much better movies than they were, but for all of their bad writing and not-so-great acting and silly childish jokes and sometimes weak CGI the overall story (the arc of Palpatine) was fantastic. Ian McDermott is probably the franchise's best actor, and Palpatine is certainly one of the most compelling characters. So to see his machinations playing out to take him from lowly small-world Senator to Supreme Chancellor to Emperor was pretty satisfying and interesting. Seeing the Jedi Order in full operation, Coruscant, quality light-saber fighting, and the Clone Wars across the Galaxy was awesome. Lots of amazing stuff was added to the Star Wars world.

And, in fact, I think the Prequels become a single very solid movie if you edit out some of the weaker stuff (most of Jar-Jar, Bantha Farts, etc.). On top of this edit, if LFL ever went back and shored up some of the CGI--especially of the clones--why I think the Prequels could be turned into one of the strongest Star Wars movies.

On the contrary, I found the New Trilogy to be severely lacking. While its acting and effects are much better than the PT overall, their is such a lean story there. TFA is the silly rehash, and TLJ burns the world of Star Wars to the ground while making the universe feel so empty and desolate and small. And while both the PT and the OT made sure to drop hints about significant time passing between each film, the entire ST so far has taken place across about 48 hours, making the world feel even smaller. To make the Sequels salvageable, you'd need to add so much stuff to them to patch up where they are sorely lacking. Two films in and we still have no plausible context, background, or world-building for how a toppled Empire could rise to be even stronger and better armed than it ever was, all while the New Republic didn't deem them a serious threat? And despite the fact that the PT makes such a big deal about Vader being a "once in a thousand years chosen one with the Force," even hinting at deep machinations as his origin, we get ex nihilo Snoke and Rey and Ren, all of whom are "stronger than anything I've ever felt before" - Luke. The same Luke who has been around Yoda, Palpatine, and Vader himself. Is there something special about them to explain their incredible raw power, or is Disney just lazily trying to make them superior to the old characters by just expositioning that they are bestest most powerful-est ever? Why was the entire galaxy-wide Resistance a mere 400 people and three capital ships? etc etc etc

And on top of this, while the PT gave us some awesome places (e.g. Coruscant) and dozens of cool new ships and vehicles and species, the ST has basically given us just slightly altered designs of a few ships we already had... and Starkiller base... and... well that's about it. So it hasn't added many cool "things" or "places" to the built-world either.

8 hours ago, Zarovichx said:

FTS Gecko is right. Anyone trying to claim the "I Gotcha" movie (TLJ) as some intellectual piece of art, is like stating the song "Who Let the Dogs Out?" Is on the level of Mozart. 

I'm not saying it's some intellectual piece of art. I'm saying that a very large - and now very angry - part of the fanbase simply didn't get it. Not that it would be hard to get it. Big difference.

There's plenty of evidence for this. Just look at the common criticisms:

• Canto bight arc pointless? You didn't understand the purpose. The criticism is never that the canto bight arc invested too much time to grow Poe and Finn, because...
• Poe and Finn have no character arcs? You didn't understand their character arcs. No, Finn did not go through the same arc in TFA.
• Holdo should have told Poe the plan? You didn't understand his character arc.
• Hyperspace ramming ruins the movie? You don't understand our past. Did Battleships go extinct because of Torpedos? No, they learned to fend off torpedos and their carriers. Did tanks go extinct because of ATGMs as plenty voices said? No, they learned to fend off missiles.
• Luke's character being destroyed because he didn't kill Kylo and didn't even try? No, he was afraid of what he saw and his instinctual reaction was to draw the lightsaber. He hesitated because he - too, like us viewers - was shocked by what he was doing. That was the point! You are supposed to feel that way.
• Using Kylo's "let the past die" as some kind of message and completely ignoring/misunderstanding Yoda's answer "We are what they grow beyond" is the actual message. Did you ever think "Good, let the hate flow through you!" was the message of RotJ? Of course not, because that guy is the villain.

That means most of the criticisms are just wrong, plainly wrong. They are an attempt to reationalize a feeling, and that feeling is important. It is also likely intentional.

I wrote it somewhere else, but the main difficulty of TLJ is how different the problems of Rey and Luke are. Luke was overconfident, and we can relate to that, because "we" is generally male and went through that phase. We can identify with that problem, and do publicly so because it's very well accepted that we all went through this or still are.

But in TLJ it's harder: Rey is full of self-doubt, Old Luke is full of guilt. We do not want to identify with that because it hits too close to home. Those are serious. We all have self-doubt, and we all want to find our place in this world. Rey goes through the same problem.

"But it is so unfair, she has it easy! She is incredibly gifted, chosen by the force. Of couse she will find her place, but I'm just an ordinary person, how could I ever find my place in the story? Oh, hi Rose, I dislike you with special hatred." Rose mirrors us, and again this sucks. She's this chubby, dirty mechanic. That's supposed to be me?! No way! I'm cool, I have the potential to be a hero like Luke had. And of course this hits even closer to home for Americans who are all just temporarily embarassed millionaires...

So when I'm saying the movie is difficult or complex, I'm not saying it's a Mozart. I'm saying it's an uncomfortable mirror that gives us a good look at something we should take a look at: ourselves, how ordinary we are, and how good that is.

I'll freely admit there were parts of the movie I really didn't get (seriously, what's up with the near-infinite Reys snapping their fingers?) However, the main thing that just doesn't sit right with me is how they handled the "Rose saves Finn" moment. From all indications, Finn was on target and had proper timing that his noble sacrifice would have been successful had Rose not stopped him. Her rational for doing so was that they should win by protecting each other instead of sacrificing themselves. That's great and all, but didn't the Resistance make it to that planet (not to mention Finn and Rose surviving their ordeal with the First Order) because Holdo made a noble sacrifice? Taken at face value, either Rose's words undermine Holdo's previous action or else Rose is wrong, undermining a touching moment. One could possibly make the case that Holdo's sacrifice was different from Finn's attempted sacrifice, but if so, the movie doesn't really make that clear. Especially frustrating is the fact that they could have just had the cannon fire a little sooner, showing that Finn wasn't going to succeed, which would allow for a slight change to Rose's dialogue so that she wouldn't be directly contradicting previous messages.

It doesn't spoil the entire movie for me, but it's things like this that tend to bug me more than just a joke falling flat.

59 minutes ago, GreenDragoon said:

Holdo should have told Poe the plan? You didn't understand his character arc.

I don't think I've heard that particular criticism before, but I also don't think I understand the response to it. Care to elaborate?

4 hours ago, JJ48 said:

However, the main thing that just doesn't sit right with me is how they handled the "Rose saves Finn" moment. From all indications, Finn was on target and had proper timing that his noble sacrifice would have been successful had Rose not stopped him. Her rational for doing so was that they should win by protecting each other instead of sacrificing themselves. That's great and all, but didn't the Resistance make it to that planet (not to mention Finn and Rose surviving their ordeal with the First Order) because Holdo made a noble sacrifice? Taken at face value, either Rose's words undermine Holdo's previous action or else Rose is wrong, undermining a touching moment. One could possibly make the case that Holdo's sacrifice was different from Finn's attempted sacrifice, but if so, the movie doesn't really make that clear. Especially frustrating is the fact that they could have just had the cannon fire a little sooner, showing that Finn wasn't going to succeed, which would allow for a slight change to Rose's dialogue so that she wouldn't be directly contradicting previous messages.

I thought the movie did make it clear that the difference in attitude matters. Holdo did exactly what Rose said: she saved what she loved, the Resistance, and she sacrificed herself for it. And so did Luke. Finn on the other hand didn't try to save the Resistance. He wanted to destroy the First Order, and that is a very large difference in attitude, even if the action would have been the same. Finn learned what to fight for, and how to fight for that.

Again I would say this hits too close home, especially in US politics, but also everywhere else where populist movements are rising up. Fighting them using the same tactics is wrong, even if it feels necessary.

The movie is the right movie at the right time, but very uncomfortable.

4 hours ago, JJ48 said:

I don't think I've heard that particular criticism before, but I also don't think I understand the response to it. Care to elaborate?

Lucky you then! Plenty of youtube videos and forum discussions bemoan that Holdo could simply have told Poe her plan and the movie would basically end. That misses the point though. Poe wants to win the war, and he needs to turn into a responsible leader who retreats if necessary, and he is in a tug of war between Leia and Holdo. Leia doesn't force Poe to change, she even reinforces his reckless behavior. Holdo explicitly tells him that a reckless, triggerhappy ace is the last thing they need at the moment. Poe has to grow into the leader that Leia is, a good balance between reckless behavior and thoughtful calculation.

Here is for example one valid criticism: Leia's character isn't very consistent because she, too, is a mix, not simply a reckless leader. First she reinforces the reckless behavior, then she criticises Poe when he takes it too far and demotes him. And in the end she even stops his mutiny. So the opposing points of view of Leia and Holdo are maybe not different enough to make the arc crystal clear on a first viewing.

4 hours ago, JJ48 said:

seriously, what's up with the near-infinite Reys snapping their fingers?

As the cave in ESB for Luke, this cave, too, shows what she fears most. Rey says: "I need someone to show me my place", and in the trailer of TFA: "I'm no one". That is her biggest fear: being alone and without a place, lost. All she sees in the cave is herself. No parents, no Luke, no Resistance, nothing. Just her, because she is all alone. The echo shows us that this goes on indefinitely, and the mistaken end is just more of her.

Imo it shows us something else, too: Rey is dominated by curiosity. She doesn't try to run, even if afraid. She's much more curious. I've once seen a comic that perfectly shows this*. And it already shows us one incredibly important if not defining trait of a hero: Heroes run towards danger, not away from it! She is afraid, but doesn't shy away.

*that was unclear... the comic consists of two sides. One says ordinary people, where they do something that hurts and they stop doing it. The other says scientists I think and they repeat it to figure out what exactly hurt them.

5 hours ago, GreenDragoon said:

Holdo should have told Poe the plan? You didn't understand his character arc.

The problem is Holdo mishandled Poe PERIOD. I've got a few military friends, and they all have said that the instant Poe started mouthing off on the bridge when he saw the transports being fueled he should have been confined to quarters if not tossed in the brig altogether, and should never have been in a position to mutiny. Had Holdo not been killed, in any real military she would have been court-martialed, (standard procedure when there's a mutiny) and likely would never have had a field command ever again.

She was outright incompetent, and yet we're supposed to blindly accept she was "right."

This is compounded by the fact that this characterization of Poe was tacked on to force the plot along. There's no real point in TFA that Poe demonstrates the sort of suicidal overconfidence that got most of his command killed in the opening battle of TLJ, (which also centered around one of the WORST ship designs in any franchise I've ever seen) or that he was the sort of hothead that Holdo pegs him as.

3 minutes ago, Ambaryerno said:

She was outright incompetent, and yet we're supposed to blindly accept she was "right."

Where are supposed to do that? She had correct intentions and made critical mistakes operating under those intentions. Poe is wrong, but that doesn't make Holdo perfect. The Resistance is very clearly not a professional military and Holdo is in her position not because of her education, but because of her actions, results, and her relationship with Leia - she needs to be able to trust all higher resistance members. This means that for better and worse (very similar to the rebellion), personal irrational descisions will happen.

3 hours ago, GreenDragoon said:

I thought the movie did make it clear that the difference in attitude matters. Holdo did exactly what Rose said: she saved what she loved, the Resistance, and she sacrificed herself for it. And so did Luke. Finn on the other hand didn't try to save the Resistance. He wanted to destroy the First Order, and that is a very large difference in attitude, even if the action would have been the same. Finn learned what to fight for, and how to fight for that.

Maybe, but I just didn't see that in the movie at all. A movie shouldn't beat you over the head with its message, but it should be clear.

3 hours ago, GreenDragoon said:

Lucky you then! Plenty of youtube videos and forum discussions bemoan that Holdo could simply have told Poe her plan and the movie would basically end. That misses the point though. Poe wants to win the war, and he needs to turn into a responsible leader who retreats if necessary, and he is in a tug of war between Leia and Holdo. Leia doesn't force Poe to change, she even reinforces his reckless behavior. Holdo explicitly tells him that a reckless, triggerhappy ace is the last thing they need at the moment. Poe has to grow into the leader that Leia is, a good balance between reckless behavior and thoughtful calculation.

Again, I feel Poe's arc is somewhat muddled. He spends pretty much the entire movie in the wrong, and then things are so hurried at the end that if there's any character growth, we don't really have much time to see it or dwell on it. Maybe the last movie will pull it all together, though.

3 hours ago, GreenDragoon said:

Here is for example one valid criticism: Leia's character isn't very consistent because she, too, is a mix, not simply a reckless leader. First she reinforces the reckless behavior, then she criticises Poe when he takes it too far and demotes him. And in the end she even stops his mutiny. So the opposing points of view of Leia and Holdo are maybe not different enough to make the arc crystal clear on a first viewing.

Honestly, I felt Leia's character was one of the ones that made the most sense throughout.

3 hours ago, GreenDragoon said:

As the cave in ESB for Luke, this cave, too, shows what she fears most. Rey says: "I need someone to show me my place", and in the trailer of TFA: "I'm no one". That is her biggest fear: being alone and without a place, lost. All she sees in the cave is herself. No parents, no Luke, no Resistance, nothing. Just her, because she is all alone. The echo shows us that this goes on indefinitely, and the mistaken end is just more of her.

Imo it shows us something else, too: Rey is dominated by curiosity. She doesn't try to run, even if afraid. She's much more curious. I've once seen a comic that perfectly shows this*. And it already shows us one incredibly important if not defining trait of a hero: Heroes run towards danger, not away from it! She is afraid, but doesn't shy away.

*that was unclear... the comic consists of two sides. One says ordinary people, where they do something that hurts and they stop doing it. The other says scientists I think and they repeat it to figure out what exactly hurt them.

Maybe, but I wasn't getting any of that from the scene. Granted, Luke's Dagobah vision wasn't terribly clear, either, but it became clearer as the movie progressed.

I will say that I've never been very good at interpreting movies/books/etc., so it's entirely possible that all this is incredibly obvious to people with that talent, and I'm just too dense to see it. However, it just seems to me that some stuff could have been made a little plainer. (Though again, they'd need to be careful doing that, as one of the big weaknesses of the Prequels, I thought, was that they made everything too obvious, and just beat the viewer over the head with it:

<Camera pans down to shot of an Imperial-looking logo while two clones are talking>
"GET IT THROUGH YOUR THICK, AUDIENCE-MEMBER SKULLS; THE CLONES ARE THE FUTURE EMPIRE!"
<Director beats audience repeatedly with scene at every other word>)

10 minutes ago, JJ48 said:

Again, I feel Poe's arc is somewhat muddled. He spends pretty much the entire movie in the wrong, and then things are so hurried at the end that if there's any character growth, we don't really have much time to see it or dwell on it.

The cardinal sin TLJ committed was that its character arcs didn't exist to service the character. They existed only to run the plot along its rails.

The movie needed Poe to be a reckless, insubordinate hothead, and so they forced that characterization on him despite it not being supported by anything we've seen about him in the past, with a rushed character arc to basically turn him BACK into what he was in TFA.

Or worse: The movie turned Luke, who faced down one of the most evil men the galaxy ever spawned by throwing away his lightsaber, and who learned the hard way the dangers of acting rashly and blindly on a vision from the Force into someone who would blindly act on a vision from the Force because the plot needed it to cement Kylo Ren's fall. Think about it: Luke claims he only considered offing Ben for a moment. Yet what we actually see is that moment was long enough for him to walk into his nephew's room while he slept, pull out his lightsaber, and ignite it.

The plot is supposed to serve your characters, not the other way around. If you have to derail who your characters are to make the plot work, the problem isn't the characters.

36 minutes ago, Ambaryerno said:

Or worse: The movie turned Luke, who faced down one of the most evil men the galaxy ever spawned by throwing away his lightsaber, and who learned the hard way the dangers of acting rashly and blindly on a vision from the Force into someone who would blindly act on a vision from the Force because the plot needed it to cement Kylo Ren's fall. Think about it: Luke claims he only considered offing Ben for a moment. Yet what we actually see is that moment was long enough for him to walk into his nephew's room while he slept, pull out his lightsaber, and ignite it.

Luke's story was actually one of the parts I never had a problem with. I don't think Luke's moment of weakness lasted the whole time. Rather, I think he went to Ben's room to confront a growing concern, as a good mentor should. Once there, he had his moment of weakness, and acted without thinking just long enough to trigger his failure.

The movie probably could have been edited to portray it better, but I feel the story itself holds up.

Just now, JJ48 said:

I don't think Luke's moment of weakness lasted the whole time. Rather, I think he went to Ben's room to confront a growing concern, as a good mentor should.

So rather than holding Ben to talk to him after class, he sneaks into his room in the middle of the night while he's sleeping?

4 minutes ago, Ambaryerno said:

So rather than holding Ben to talk to him after class, he sneaks into his room in the middle of the night while he's sleeping?

If Luke had called him out to stay after class, it might have embarrassed Ben in front of his friends. As an uncle, Luke's not going to want to put his nephew through that.