Although I'm not a fan of changing released content for balance, is there a case for modifying how grenade surge conversion works?

Currently all Imperial corps units benefit from surge to hit on grenade attacks, while only rebel fleeties can benefit from this. Impact grenades crush atrts (esp flamers)... While atsts are pretty much untouchable without Luke.

We have seen a few cards (proton charge) that have specific surge conversions on them. I would suggest all grenades surge to hit, or don't convert surges at all.

Your thoughts?

Sound logic to me.

But also agree that I don’t really like pages of errata etc for existing cards...

36 minutes ago, Aurelus said:

Although I'm not a fan of changing released content for balance, is there a case for modifying how grenade surge conversion works?

Currently all Imperial corps units benefit from surge to hit on grenade attacks, while only rebel fleeties can benefit from this. Impact grenades crush atrts (esp flamers)... While atsts are pretty much untouchable without Luke.

We have seen a few cards (proton charge) that have specific surge conversions on them. I would suggest all grenades surge to hit, or don't convert surges at all.

Your thoughts?

Why should grenade attacks get different surges?

On every single unit in the game the surge is attached to the thing doing the firing, not the weapon being fired.

(other than the afformentioned charges used by both imperials and rebels but in that case it is improving the surge of the attacking, crit instead of hit and in the imperial case giving a surge where they was none before, but not degrading it.)

Also what am I missing here?

Imperial Corps units surge to hit, whereas an AT-RT has Armor.

So if I'm using impact grenades I'm still only getting 1 hit to crit upgrade, and if I'm using concussion grenades I'm getting nothing because they lack an impact keyword.

You're right, grenades should have the same stats whoever is using them, or they should cost a different amount depending on who's using them.

I mean, I could see it both ways. Area weapons have their own surge conversion because their nature is indiscriminate - the qualities of the soldier who placed them have no effect, but the training of a soldier should affect their accuracy in grenade placement. After all, other keywords apply to the attack if you choose to use grenades.

That said, I think we're not doing an apples to apples comparison here. Impact Grenades should eat AT-RTs because they have a smaller wound pool and no defensive surge, unlike an AT-ST. Sure, you can get a slight advantage with surge to hit (because Surges occur first, then modifiers like Impact) but I don't know if that really matters when a full squad of either faction has a stonking Impact 6 on the same die type. Keep in mind, Imperial units are generally more expensive than rebels and you're adding a new cost on top. The Imperials should get something extra out of it.

Another counterbalance, Rebs are actually better off than Imps in this avenue. Scout Troopers and Royal Guards do not have offensive surge conversions (and both can take grenades) but both Rebel Commandos and Wookiee Warrior do. Seems like it levels itself out.

Just now, jauntyharrison said:

You're right, grenades should have the same stats whoever is using them, or they should cost a different amount depending on who's using them.

The surge reflects the Stormtroopers superior training, so I don’t agree with this.

Rebels don't throw as well.

20 minutes ago, jauntyharrison said:

You're right, grenades should have the same stats whoever is using them, or they should cost a different amount depending on who's using them.

Have you seen those noodle armed Rebel Troopers? Nades they throw aren’t going to make it to the target, lol, enemies are catching a little shrapnel at worst. If they wanted to surge to wound on nades they should have made like Fleet Troopers and worked out something other than their glamour muscles.

1 hour ago, Derrault said:

The surge reflects the Stormtroopers superior training, so I don’t agree with this.

Ok, that’s fine. So you keep the surge/no-surge for that diagetic justification. Then you should adjust the point values for fairness. Grenades now cost 5pts for rebel troopers, and 6pts for stormtroopers.

Stormtroopers also benefit from heavier armour and bonus to aim... Which can further benefit their hit chances with grenades. The playing field should be level on costed upgrades... 62% chance to hit vs 50% chance makes a difference.

1 hour ago, Zrob314 said:

Why should grenade attacks get different surges?

On every single unit in the game the surge is attached to the thing doing the firing, not the weapon being fired.

(other than the afformentioned charges used by both imperials and rebels but in that case it is improving the surge of the attacking, crit instead of hit and in the imperial case giving a surge where they was none before, but not degrading it.)

Also what am I missing here?

Imperial Corps units surge to hit, whereas an AT-RT has Armor.

So if I'm using impact grenades I'm still only getting 1 hit to crit upgrade, and if I'm using concussion grenades I'm getting nothing because they lack an impact keyword.

Impact stacks on the grenades. Each mini is using a grenade, therefore get's impact 1.

So by this logic, every unit card must be redesigned as, for instance, a hand to hand for a stoemtrooper is different than an e-11 when the trooper fires it?

Does surge to hit happen before the impact changes? I thought it was all one big modify attack dice step?

On 10/1/2018 at 7:53 PM, Uetur said:

Does surge to hit happen before the impact changes? I thought it was all one big modify attack dice step?

Surge happens first, then apply cover and dodge, and finally impact

1 hour ago, jauntyharrison said:

Ok, that’s fine. So you keep the surge/no-surge for that diagetic justification. Then you should adjust the point values for fairness. Grenades now cost 5pts for rebel troopers, and 6pts for stormtroopers.

I dissagree with this approach, if so you have to review practically every upgrade depending on which unit is equipping it. This happens in every game, there are upgrades that benefits some units more than others.

For example, Fleet troopers benefits more from targeting scopes or concussion grenades than Rebel Commados.

Or Rebel Commandos and Han Solo benefits more from duck and cover than Boba Fett.

1 hour ago, jauntyharrison said:

Grenades now cost 5pts for rebel troopers, and 6pts for stormtroopers.

Grenades cost an extra 4 points on Stormtroopers, in case you didn't do the math

(Because Rebel Troopers are 40 points and Stormtroopers are 44, the premium is baked into the unit)

2 hours ago, jauntyharrison said:

Ok, that’s fine. So you keep the surge/no-surge for that diagetic justification. Then you should adjust the point values for fairness. Grenades now cost 5pts for rebel troopers, and 6pts for stormtroopers.

Stormtroopers already cost 1 point more than Rebel troopers, so arguably you’ve already paid that cost differential.

6 hours ago, AintNoPoser said:

Impact stacks on the grenades. Each mini is using a grenade, therefore get's impact 1.

wait, what?

source please?

My thoughts: Don't try to fix something that ain't broken. The only unit I see grenades on are Snowtroopers (and very occasionally Fleet Troopers). I wouldn't pick them on Rebel Troopers even if they had surge convert. So don't make it more complicated just because it feels a bit odd. And if we're talking about balance, there are many other units/upgrades in need of more love (looking at you T-47, Vader, targeting scopes ...).

So the real question is: do grenades give one side an unfair advantage leading them to dominate/break the game? Only then the rules should be changed. And I don't think that is the case with grenades.

1 hour ago, Zrob314 said:

wait, what?

source please?

Rules Reference Book P35

https://images-cdn.fantasyflightgames.com/filer_public/6d/2d/6d2d4718-30af-443b-883e-7eadd6c9d06d/swl_rules_reference_110.pdf

Quote

All keywords with a numerical value (an “x” value) are cumulative with themselves. This includes both weapon keywords and unit keywords (including unit keywords that are card actions, such as the jump x keyword).

For example, an AT-ST has the arsenal 2 keyword; if that AT-ST uses the free card action on the General Weiss upgrade card to gain arsenal 2, that AT-ST now has arsenal 4. Similarly, when a Stormtrooper unit composed of four minis performs an attack, if each mini chooses to use the weapon on an equipped Impact Grenades upgrade card, the attack pool would consist of four instances of impact 1, and thus the attack pool would have impact 4.

21 hours ago, Zrob314 said:

On every single unit in the game the surge is attached to the thing doing the firing, not the weapon being fired.

This is no longer true. Newer weapons have their own surge chart, specifically the mines laid by the rebel and imperial special forces.

In retrospect, grenades of all types should have had a surge to crit. It resolves this weird thing where Storm Troopers get to surge on the attack and doesn't really buff either grenade. Concussion grenades already have blast so a crit doesn't get through cover, it only cancels a dodge. And Impact grenades already have impact, so you already get crits and only matters if the defender has cover.

If they are used against the wrong target (impact against troopers and concussion against armor), the grenades provide a small buff to the attack, which can logically be explained. Throwing an explosive of any kind at a person or vehicle should leave some damage.

3 hours ago, Undeadguy said:

This is no longer true. Newer weapons have their own surge chart, specifically the mines laid by the rebel and imperial special forces.

That's because it's not the unit itself doing the attack. The saboteur is just triggering it. The charges is exploding, making a totally separate attack.

Edit:

Additionally, the scout troopers don't surge to hit, where the bike troopers do.

Grenades are one of the few things I haven't heard a complaint about at some point.

14 hours ago, Qwrety77 said:

Grenades are one of the few things I haven't heard a complaint about at some point.

Now you have! Oh the wonders of the internet

I'm completely fine with them surging differently based on the troop throwing them. It could be training, it could be "quality" of the weapons they are using. It could be many things. That's just me.