3 minutes ago, StriderZessei said:

Sweet, merciful Odin, your reading comprehension needs work. I wasn't complaining, just stating the fact that Dash was never OP.

24 minutes ago, StriderZessei said:

Except he wasn't OP even at his best. Han could beat him in the PS race, Imperial Aces destroyed him with Autothrusters when they weren't getting into the donut hole, and he couldn't trade efficiently with any of the Jumpmasters until they got nerfed for the third time.

Bold by me....

so ya.... i read what you said.... apparently its not what you meant?

I don't understand why a ship has to suck in 2.0 just because it was good in 1.0.

We're definitely seeing the same pattern with the VCX and the Jumpmaster. I understand that FFG is afraid of making these ships too strong again and being derided for making the same mistakes, and that it's necessary for them to err on the side of caution. But now that the dust is starting to settle, if 2nd edition is truly supposed to be a game where every ship can be competitive, FFG will hopefully recognize that Dash is not in a good place currently and needs just a little bit of slack let out.

1 minute ago, Icelom said:

...autothrusters...

Bold by me....

so ya.... i read what you said....

To be fair, you cherry-picked one word from his post and ignored everything else in there that is still present and strong in 2.0. Aces no longer even need autothrusters against Dash, because it's so ridiculously easy to stay out of his arc now, or at the very least boost into range 1 and steal an attack dice from him for free.

Just now, Tvboy said:

I don't understand why a ship has to suck in 2.0 just because it was good in 1.0.

We're definitely seeing the same pattern with the VCX and the Jumpmaster. I understand that FFG is afraid of making these ships too strong again and being derided for making the same mistakes, and that it's necessary for them to err on the side of caution. But now that the dust is starting to settle, if 2nd edition is truly supposed to be a game where every ship can be competitive, FFG will hopefully recognize that Dash is not in a good place currently and needs just a little bit of slack let out.

but it does not suck in second edition, its just not as insane as it was in first... people are taking it and comparing it to first edition dash then complaining it cant do everything it could then. But the game in second edition is different, dash could not have everything he used to have or he would vaporize every other ship, **** just the removal of autothrussters alone is a massive buff to dash.

Just now, Tvboy said:

To be fair, you cherry-picked one word from his post and ignored everything else in there that is still present and strong in 2.0. Aces no longer even need autothrusters against Dash, because it's so ridiculously easy to stay out of his arc now, or at the very least boost into range 1 and steal an attack dice from him for free.

oh no! he goes to 3 dice what are you going to do? that is such a massive buff over the same situation in first edition and you are complaining about it.

Just now, Icelom said:

oh no! he goes to 3 dice what are you going to do? that is such a massive buff over the same situation in first edition and you are complaining about it.

You seem to be ignoring that Dash has 2 giant 90 degree wedges where he can't shoot, even at range 1. That's so much worse than his donut hole in 1.0. My point was that if the ace player is such a bad pilot that they can't somehow make your way into those giant wedges, you still can boost into range 1.

Quote

but it does not suck in second edition, its just not as insane as it was in first... people are taking it and comparing it to first edition dash then complaining it cant do everything it could then. But the game in second edition is different, dash could not have everything he used to have or he would vaporize every other ship, **** just the removal of autothrussters alone is a massive buff to dash.

So you agree that Dash is worse than he was 1.0. Yet he costs more than he did in 1.0 (converting 100 pt to 200 pts). So combining that he's weaker (by your admission) and he costs more points, you still think he's competitively viable? Because that sounds like a 1-2 punch of suck to me.

1 minute ago, Icelom said:

Bold by me....

so ya.... i read what you said....

Last response before you get put on the ignore list.

My point: 'Dash was never OP; he was countered by Aces, among other things (especially when they had Autothrusters) and is even moreso now.' FULL STOP.

What you're arguing: 'Autothrusters are gone!!!1!11!'

You missed the point.

2 minutes ago, Icelom said:

oh no! he goes to 3 dice what are you going to do? that is such a massive buff over the same situation in first edition and you are complaining about it.

Dash goes to zero dice when Aces are out of his bowtie arc now (which is even easier than getting into range 1 for an ace,) and he still is at a disadvantage at range 1, as he loses attack power, while his enemy gains an attack die.

Again, you missed the point.

Your Dash-hating is just clouding your ability to make a sound and rational counter-argument.

2 minutes ago, StriderZessei said:

Last response before you get put on the ignore list.

My point: 'Dash was never OP; he was countered by Aces, among other things (especially when they had Autothrusters) and is even moreso now.' FULL STOP.

What you're arguing: 'Autothrusters are gone!!!1!11!'

You missed the point.

Dash goes to zero dice when Aces are out of his bowtie arc now (which is even easier than getting into range 1 for an ace,) and he still is at a disadvantage at range 1, as he loses attack power, while his enemy gains an attack die.

Again, you missed the point.

Your Dash-hating is just clouding your ability to make a sound and rational counter-argument.

Ignore me if you want,

But all ships have to deal with aiming there weapons in second edition, and it makes no sense for dash to be setup as good as he was in first edition because its a different game.

All i am arguing is i think dash is not under powered right now (or at least its to early to tell), you are arguing he is under powered. We might just have to disagree.

21 minutes ago, Tvboy said:

Who did state this?

7 minutes ago, Icelom said:

All i am arguing is i think dash is not under powered right now (or at least its to early to tell), you are arguing he is under powered. We might just have to disagree. 

I agree.

That makes two teams.

1 : dash is ok

2 : dash is a little overpriced

So? Points adjustment!!! It is V2, it is A THING

Also, it seems we all agree that dash will benefit from next waves upgrades options.

So are we cool now?

Any comparison of points between first and second edition is a fool's errand. It is a new game with a new power baseline and the 2400 still throws four dice wherever it wants. (Not at the same time, sure. But that is what I'm talking about. It's a whole new game.) Dash might be a bit overpriced but I'm not convinced.

I'll just say that the Dash fans in here are getting a little tilted. Probably because they feel outnumbered and put upon.

I'll admit I have a hard time staying impartial. I hate Dash to a thoroughly irrational level.

I never had a huge problem with Dash, for the most part, in 1.0 - I found his PS7 and vulnerability to being cornered served as decent counterplay for his shenaniganry (at least until the latter days of LW/Rey). That said, I find it incredibly difficult to understand any points reduction on a ship that is still throwing out four attack dice from two movable arcs (potentially both in one round) in a version of the game where 4-dice shots are as rare as they should be and every ship has to deal with the reality of lining up arcs rather than just always being able to shoot. That's not even getting into practically ignoring obstacles (always rather than just twice, like CD) or shedding red tokens with the title.
I think the reality is that really effective upgrades for certain slots (Rebel Crew?) just don't exist yet, since the game has just begun (the Gunner slot, for example, is of very limited use on ships without a turret right now). And I imagine FFG has some prior knowledge of what's to come in that regard, so perhaps they have priced Dash appropriately to account for it.
In short, it is FAR too early to be griping about possible overcosting on a pilot that has such powerful abilities, and certainly no free dice mods should be handed out as a knee-jerk reaction. A lot of folk had a big problem with Dash in 1.0 and so suggesting such changes is of course going to ruffle them and set them against the very idea.

3 hours ago, gamblertuba said:

Any comparison of points between first and second edition is a fool's errand. It is a new game with a new power baseline and the 2400 still throws four dice wherever it wants. (Not at the same time, sure. But that is what I'm talking about. It's a whole new game.) Dash might be a bit overpriced but I'm not convinced.

I'll just say that the Dash fans in here are getting a little tilted. Probably because they feel outnumbered and put upon.

I'll admit I have a hard time staying impartial. I hate Dash to a thoroughly irrational level.

I appreciate the honesty in this post.

22 hours ago, HanScottFirst said:

I have a friend who is 9-0 in 2.0 play with Dash.

He runs Dash with Perceptive Copilot and Bistan, and has a u-wing to coordiante and get in the way of other ships. I think he coordinates the double focus, which opens up Dash to take a TL, BR, etc.

Do you know the full list?

On 10/1/2018 at 8:08 AM, Archangelspiv said:

I think you will find what ever was powerful/meta at the end of 1.0 will be up on points in 2.0. It will need some time to settle, I think Scum Fenn is overcosted at 68 points, but I might be alone.

You are definitely not alone. TBH, I can't see why Scum Fenn couldn't be costed more akin to an interceptor or an i6 striker were such a ship to exist. Granted, maybe a tad more expensive than the aforementioned imp ships, but that's basically on account of the Torpedo slot and the ship ability. He is limited in his linked actions (unlike Duchhess, who always "boosts" if she wants to even when stressed, and definitely not like Soontir, who can double-repo and get a focus or just repo and evade for a token stack), and whilst his title is a buff and he is better than ever at R1, he is incredibly weak at R2 and squishy at R3 (especially since he can't take stealth, shield, or afterburner mods at the moment). With said only 1 reposition and a focus, he checks under his bed for Outmaneuver Guri and Juke Rexler, especially if those aces are packing advanced sensors or collision detector.

68 points is 2 pt shy of 3Force, all the cool toys, and 2 shield Dark Lord of the Sith Darth Vader's chassis. If that ain't overcosted on a ship that is tempted perpetually to take elusive, then I don't know what is.

And just to be clear, the entire yt2400 doesn't have to suck

It's just Dash's ability has been proven to be incredibly game warping and places an undue emphasis on moving after him (which, at I 5, would leave a pathetic fraction of available pilots)

So, better safe than sorry

12 minutes ago, ficklegreendice said:

And just to be clear, the entire yt2400 doesn't have to suck

It's just Dash's ability has been proven to be incredibly game warping and places an undue emphasis on moving after him (which, at I 5, would leave a pathetic fraction of available pilots)

So, better safe than sorry

Which kind of makes you wonder why they didn't just change Dash's ability.

14 minutes ago, ficklegreendice said:

And just to be clear, the entire yt2400 doesn't have to suck

It's just Dash's ability has been proven to be incredibly game warping and places an undue emphasis on moving after him (which, at I 5, would leave a pathetic fraction of available pilots)

So, better safe than sorry

How has it "been proven to be incredibly game warping"?

Just now, JJ48 said:

Which kind of makes you wonder why they didn't just change Dash's ability.

VERY much so

Even if it were like moff JJ (2 charges recurring, spend two charges for ability so it has a one round "cooldown") it'd be much less polarizing and much more interesting

But there was a LOT of **** to rebalance, so I guess I can't completely fault them

Honestly, though, I was they had gone further with these ability limitations. Charges for Dash is one, but I also wish that guys like Jonus/Howlie were "when focused" etc.

Makes the game more interesting, imo

1 minute ago, StriderZessei said:

How has it "been proven to be incredibly game warping"?

Have you just not played against first Ed Dash?

The entirety of first edition eventually degenerated into a ps war minus very few exceptions (poon boats), and Dash's ridiculous arc dodging capabilities were not helping matters

Same reason why we gutted Miranda, nym, arcdodgers in general

2 minutes ago, StriderZessei said:

How has it "been proven to be incredibly game warping"?

In first edition, if you flew something with a lower pilot skill you simply lost.

It was very beatable but it just shutout a massive amount of ships.

15 minutes ago, ficklegreendice said:

Have you just not played against first Ed Dash?

The entirety of first edition eventually degenerated into a ps war minus very few exceptions (poon boats), and Dash's ridiculous arc dodging capabilities were not helping matters

I think you're hyperbolizing just how good he was in 1.0, just because he was the embodiment of just about everything you hated about it besides bombs.

And you didn't answer my question. How was it proven he warped the entire game? Did he add a third dimension?

And the PS war was just the state of the game, thanks to high PS characters like Han, Fel, and talents like Veteran Instincts. Dash had nothing to do with that.

Dash ABSOLUTELY had something to do with that

He was exceptionally viable with nym or Miranda, and any sort of game experience against him immidiately shows even the most casual player just how imperative it was to out ps him

He was a problem same as tons of other high ps arc dodgers. They all got nerfed, Dash got "buffed" (higher I, no doughnut hole) so he got priced accordingly

No reason for him to receive special treatment

57 minutes ago, ficklegreendice said:

He was exceptionally viable with nym or Miranda.

Maybe in casual games, but then everything kind of is.

1 hour ago, ficklegreendice said:

Dash ABSOLUTELY had something to do with that

He was exceptionally viable with nym or Miranda, and any sort of game experience against him immidiately shows even the most casual player just how imperative it was to out ps him

He was a problem same as tons of other high ps arc dodgers. They all got nerfed, Dash got "buffed" (higher I, no doughnut hole) so he got priced accordingly

No reason for him to receive special treatment

Again, where is your proof?

Also, no one is asking for special treatment. We're just discussing his point cost and why he's struggling so far.

Dash was my worst enemy early on when I mostly just started out playing against my friend in my basement. He flew a lot of Dash-Corran and it was a total nightmare, basically forcing me onto Soontir or Whisper if I even wanted to stand a chance.

That being said, I think that he does need a cost reduction. A lot of what was terrible about him has been nerfed, big base ships in general are nerfed (4 ship lists leave a lot less board space to land on and bullseye effects are a thing) and I think that the chassis design for the 2400 is a really cool concept that should be interesting for both players at the table to take into account when playing.