9 minutes ago, Tvboy said:

Again I feel the need to point out that a fully kitted Whisper costs 75 points (61 if you drop Vader crew), compared to Dash's 114-138 points cost. Yes, if you fly her into your opponent's killbox, she will die, but so will Dash, and Dash's larger profile and far more limited repositioning (not to mention that everyone here suggests tethering him to a coordinate freighter) make it much harder for him to avoid the killbox. My point is that if it's Dash's ignore rocks ability that people seem to complain about so much, Whisper does that way way better for her points cost, and that means that the "Dash is bad is good for the game" argument is rendered moot.

Lets just ignore Dash's HP total vs whispers then? And dashes extra red dice? And dashes movable arc?

You are right what a travesty he costs more then whisper.

What the **** more do you want?

1 minute ago, Icelom said:

Lets just ignore Dash's HP total vs whispers then? And dashes extra red dice? And dashes movable arc?

You are right what a travesty he costs more then whisper.

What the **** more do you want?

I would like you to not put words in my mouth. I'm not complaining that Dash costs more than Whisper. Obviously he needs to. I'm saying that the argument that has been made in this thread and other threads that Dash being bad is "good for the game", is rendered moot when there is a ship that does mostly the same thing (ignore obstacles and dance around the table) in another faction that is very strong.

1 hour ago, ForceSensitive said:

Dash is the third highest hit point total in the faction, and of that top three is the only one with a two base agility, and on top of that gets bonuses for positioning itself in obstructed places for even more defense. How the heck are you thinking he's too fragile!? For the price of one freaking hit point you get to fire a six die gun, with Jan you coordinate up a lock, and then Saw focuses the shot for crits galore. I'm not worrying about giving up a hit point when I'm not expecting one enemy ship to be there anymore after I'm done firing at I5. That attack could relatively easily one shot a X-wing. Dash doesn't get to be tricky anymore. He gets the BFG award. Which as a former Dash player in 1.0 is probably a good thing, because he was totally an easy button for me back then. Sorry @StriderZessei

Because with no double actions, no innate evade, no regen, and no reinforce, Dash just melts under sustained fire. He's always been played like an arc-dodger for a reason. EDIT: and as was said, for less points you can fly three X-wings with more health and the same agility.

I'll reserve being impressed by him one-shotting an X-wing "relatively easily" for when I see it.

Also, Dash was never an "easy button" unless you didn't mind losing too. He was good, but he was never Triple Jumpmasters-good, or 2.0 Boba good.

Where was his top ranking on Meta-Wing? 7th, in the plot armor list with Poe?

13 minutes ago, StriderZessei said:

Where was his top ranking on Meta-Wing? 7th, in the plot armor list with Poe?

What's Meta-Wing?

Does nobody like Kanan on Dash?

4 minutes ago, GreenDragoon said:

Does nobody like Kanan on Dash?

I'm really keen on it, particularly with LW. It needs more board time, but I've had decent early returns with LW/Kanan/Outrider/RCS Dash and ProTorp/Mrknshp Thane.

TVboy and StriderZessei are obviously upset that Dash is not as good in 2nd Ed. as he used to be. We get it. But comparing a single firing arc, 3 red-dice Whisper to SuperDash1.0 is just silly.

Dash can't do the things he usedtacould. This is good. Even for you Dash fans.

39 minutes ago, gamblertuba said:

TVboy and StriderZessei are obviously upset that Dash is not as good in 2nd Ed. as he used to be. We get it. But comparing a single firing arc, 3 red-dice Whisper to SuperDash1.0 is just silly.

Dash can't do the things he usedtacould. This is good. Even for you Dash fans.

And you, JJ48, Icelom, FGD and all the other Dash haters are obviously upset that Dash is still in the game. We get it. But putting words in our mouths when we're just pointing out his new flaws outweigh his new strengths is just asinine.

Dash isn't as good as he was, and is probably a bit overcosted. This isn't good.

Perhaps a new Leebo crew in the 2.0 YT-2400 expansion will have some great new synergy. But all we're saying is he's not in a great place during these early days of 2.0 and providing said feedback for FFG's consideration.

At the same time, we are doing what we can to understand his new flying style and relearn the ship.

What we're NOT saying is idiotic BS like "the game will be far more enjoyable with a crappy dash than an exceptionally viable one"

20 minutes ago, gamblertuba said:

TVboy and StriderZessei are obviously upset that Dash is not as good in 2nd Ed. as he used to be. We get it. But comparing a single firing arc, 3 red-dice Whisper to SuperDash1.0 is just silly.

Dash can't do the things he usedtacould. This is good. Even for you Dash fans.

It's like you read the words I typed but then you completely ignored the point I was explicitly making and you proceeded to make the same argument that I just said is rendered moot by the existence of collision detector Whisper.

Having the format's Dash moved into the Empire is not good for Dash fans if they also happen to be Rebel fans, nor does it help non-Dash fans if the ability to ignore rocks is such an NPE for people and exists on a very strong ship in another faction.

Let me rephrase this in a way that might be easier to understand: If making Dash bad is good for the game, then Whisper, or at least collision detector, should be bad as well. But they're not, so the game still has an NPE obstacle ignoring ship, it's just in a different faction now on a different ship.

Is there a argument about Dash is quite like tie/ph+collision detector ?

Big base double arc TPW long range shouter should definitely not be flown like a stealth close/mid-range arc dodger.

Ok the obstacles gimmick, the kind of alike dial, but what else?

A great flying exercise would be to fly a 100 pts Dash against the same value of tie/ph. Dash will try to always get away, ties will try to get close to avoid the 4 dice arcs...

9 minutes ago, player2422845 said:

Is there a argument about Dash is quite like tie/ph+collision detector ?

Big base double arc TPW long range shouter should definitely not be flown like a stealth close/mid-range arc dodger.

That's how he used to be flown, and that's what made him fun. Now he just has all the boring stuff that people complained about (ignoring rocks, stripping locks), and exacerbated weaknesses (bigger blind spot than before, weak to arc-dodgers) without the freedom of movement that he used to have because he has to sit next to a coordinate ship or give up dice mods if he wants to barrel roll.

Now he's just another pancake. Do a maneuver, focus, roll dice. Watch your opponent roll 2x as much attack dice for the same amount of points. Boring.

Just about everything that was good at the end of 1st edition is overcosted now. Dash included. He will probably drop a few points when they start adjusting. The real issue is that Rebel crew/gunners are all terrible or priced into oblivion. Once Dash drops in cost a bit and gets a few more decent crew/gunner options he will be fine.

15 minutes ago, Tvboy said:

Let me rephrase this in a way that might be easier to understand: If making Dash bad is good for the game, then Whisper, or at least collision detector, should be bad as well. But they're not, so the game still has an NPE obstacle ignoring ship, it's just in a different faction now on a different ship.

Then let's nerf Collision Detector. The charge-to-ignore bit doesn't seem to be the problem. Rather, it's the "Boost/BR over obstacles" bit that's open for abuse. So, just make that bit cost a charge, too.

Suddenly, ignoring obstacles becomes a special, limited trick instead of a constant nuisance, and everyone can find something else to be dissatisfied with!

1 minute ago, Houston8665 said:

Just about everything that was good at the end of 1st edition is overcosted now. Dash included. He will probably drop a few points when they start adjusting. The real issue is that Rebel crew/gunners are all terrible or priced into oblivion. Once Dash drops in cost a bit and gets a few more decent crew/gunner options he will be fine.

I agree. I really hope Leebo will be a good fit for Dash or the Outrider Title.

1 minute ago, JJ48 said:

Then let's nerf Collision Detector. The charge-to-ignore bit doesn't seem to be the problem. Rather, it's the "Boost/BR over obstacles" bit that's open for abuse. So, just make that bit cost a charge, too.

Suddenly, ignoring obstacles becomes a special, limited trick instead of a constant nuisance, and everyone can find something else to be dissatisfied with!

I would be fine with that. If FFG is going to take toys away because they're unfun, then take them away from everyone, not just one faction.

Until FFG fixes this, (and other ridiculousness like scum Han Solo gunner) my point stands.

Dash used to be able to

• ignore obstacles for the entire game
• boost on a large base
• barrel roll
• throw four red dice in any direction
• reroll green dice on every attack (lone wolf)
• Store 3-4 Rey focus or more

Collision detector lets you do one of those things. It is a very, very good thing that SuperDash isn't in the second edition of the game.

6 minutes ago, gamblertuba said:

Dash used to be able to

• ignore obstacles for the entire game
• boost on a large base
• barrel roll
• throw four red dice in any direction
• reroll green dice on every attack (lone wolf)
• Store 3-4 Rey focus or more

Collision detector lets you do one of those things. It is a very, very good thing that SuperDash isn't in the second edition of the game.

Only one of those things was unique to Dash in 2nd edition. Everything else you mentioned came from an upgrade that other ships could take and wasn't native to the ship itself.

I'm fine with Super Dash not coming back to 2.0. I just wish we didn't have to pay Super Dash level of points for what is clearly not super Dash. I think Dash as he is should cost no more than 94 stock, and the Outrider title should be lowered to 10 points.

24 minutes ago, gamblertuba said:

Dash used to be able to

• ignore obstacles for the entire game
• boost on a large base
• barrel roll
• throw four red dice in any direction
• reroll green dice on every attack (lone wolf)
• Store 3-4 Rey focus or more

Collision detector lets you do one of those things. It is a very, very good thing that SuperDash isn't in the second edition of the game.

-Not when he was parked on an asteroid or firing through them.

-As could several others with that upgrade.

-As could the Jumpmaster.

- Only at range 2-3, at PS7. Aces could eat him for lunch by staying in the donut.

- As could any ship with Lone Wolf.

- As could any ship with Rey crew.

Doesn't change the fact that Dash is overcosted now, has too few viable upgrades, and requires being hand-held by a support ship. Which is all we're getting at.

8 minutes ago, Tvboy said:

Only one of those things was unique to Dash in 2nd edition. Everything else you mentioned came from an upgrade that other ships could take and wasn't native to the ship itself.

I'm fine with Super Dash not coming back to 2.0. I just wish we didn't have to pay Super Dash level of points for what is clearly not super Dash.

I get that but Dash was just a perfect storm in first edition and the ability to boost and/or barrel roll over obstacles with a large base was just stupid and remains so.

I think they shot themselves in the foot by leaving the YT-2400 as a 4 dice turret. That was silly. It was even more dumb to remove the donut hole which at least provided some interesting tactical options. They painted themselves into a corner and had to make the point cost ridiculous as a result.

Edit to add: @StriderZessei Yes, other ships could do one or two of those things. Dash could do all six. He can still do some of the most important, especially the four dice turret. It's hard to argue against Dash being a pretty steep uptick in 1.0 power creep. I am much happier if they start off with the YT-2400 too expensive and gradually bring it down. I would have been happier still to bring it down to 3 attack and let it's 2 agility and barrel roll make it interesting.

7 minutes ago, StriderZessei said:

Doesn't change the fact that Dash...has too few viable upgrades...

This, at least, will almost certainly get fixed when he's actually released.

1 hour ago, Tvboy said:

That's how he used to be flown, and that's what made him fun. Now he just has all the boring stuff that people complained about (ignoring rocks, stripping locks), and exacerbated weaknesses (bigger blind spot than before, weak to arc-dodgers) without the freedom of movement that he used to have because he has to sit next to a coordinate ship or give up dice mods if he wants to barrel roll. 

I get your point, honestly I understand that it is sad if you like to fly dash this way. But isn't exactly the goal of the V2? Putting ALL the ship of a faction on the same level regarding points? Thanks to the v2, you can actually play 100 points of Bwing that worth 100 points of yt2000. There is plenty of other ships that have been totally retouched. Yt2000 is an incredible ship, I admit that it suffer ( like all rebel large base) of the lack of great crew/upgrades synergy in this early V2, but I bet he will get a lot of great option in next waves.

50 minutes ago, JJ48 said:

This, at least, will almost certainly get fixed when he's actually released.

Agreed. I hope it's something we can both find acceptable (although I kinda doubt it, lol.)

58 minutes ago, gamblertuba said:

Yes, other ships could do one or two of those things. Dash could do all six.

He usually didn't do all six at the same time though. If he had Engine Upgrade, he probably ran it with Push the Limit (which I think we both agree caused a lot of problems.) If he had Lone Wolf it was usually with Rey and Smuggling Compartments.

58 minutes ago, gamblertuba said:

It's hard to argue against Dash being a pretty steep uptick in 1.0 power creep.

Except he wasn't OP even at his best. Han could beat him in the PS race, Imperial Aces destroyed him with Autothrusters when they weren't getting into the donut hole, and he couldn't trade efficiently with any of the Jumpmasters until they got nerfed for the third time.

58 minutes ago, gamblertuba said:

I am much happier if they start off with the YT-2400 too expensive and gradually bring it down.

I do agree it's better to err on the side of caution. But when it becomes clear that a ship is overcosted and/or lacking, we need players to remain objective in discussing it (as you usually do, even when it's a ship you hate) rather than getting non-responses from biased first edition-veterans like "It's better for the game to X ship to suck, get over it," and non-arguments comparing it to first edition.

9 minutes ago, StriderZessei said:

Agreed. I hope it's something we can both find acceptable (although I kinda doubt it, lol.)

He usually didn't do all six at the same time though. If he had Engine Upgrade, he probably ran it with Push the Limit (which I think we both agree cause a lot of problems.) If he had Lone Wolf it was usually with Rey and Smuggling Compartments.

Except he wasn't OP even at his best. Han could beat him in the PS race, Imperial Aces destroyed him with Autothrusters when they weren't getting into the donut hole, and he couldn't trade efficiently with any of the Jumpmasters until they got nerfed for the third time.

I do agree it's better to err on the side of caution. But when it becomes clear that a ship is overcosted and/or lacking, we need players to remain objective in discussing it (as you usually do, even when it's a ship you hate) rather than getting non-responses from biased first edition-veterans like "It's better for the game to X ship to suck, get over it," and non-arguments comparing it to first edition.

So the things that beat him were removed from the game in second edition? and you are complaining?

5 minutes ago, StriderZessei said:

we need players to remain objective in discussing it (as you usually do, even when it's a ship you hate) rather than getting non-responses from biased first edition-veterans like "It's better for the game to X ship to suck, get over it," and non-arguments comparing it to first edition. 

You missed the point of the Veteran. It is indeed better for the game to see 1/60 ship beeing bad than 1/60 ship beeing too good. It is exactly the idea of the devs and the points adjustment mechanism.

I don't understand why you would take this statement as biased or as a non-argument when talking about pricing for Dash.

Plus, I don't see where people "hate" a ship in V2.

12 minutes ago, Icelom said:

So the things that beat him were removed from the game in second edition? and you are complaining?

Sweet, merciful Odin, your reading comprehension needs work. I wasn't complaining, just stating the fact that Dash was never OP.

Also, the thing that beat Dash hardest (Aces) are in better form than they've been for a loooong time. You somehow missed my point TWICE.

8 minutes ago, player2422845 said:

You missed the point of the Veteran. It is indeed better for the game to see 1/60 ship beeing bad than 1/60 ship beeing too good. It is exactly the idea of the devs and the points adjustment mechanism.

I don't understand why you would take this statement as biased or as a non-argument when talking about pricing for Dash.

Plus, I don't see where people "hate" a ship in V2.

I agree that no one ship/list should be dominant. It sucked when it was the Jumpmaster, it sucked when it was Palp Aces, and it sucked when it was the Bomb meta. But that's not what was said.

What was said was basically, 'meh, who cares, fly something else,' which completely destroys any meaningful discourse and feedback discussion. It's the same as the old, "well, let's just agree to disagree."

When people let their bias, negative or positive, override their ability to objectively discuss the merit of something pertaining to game balance, that's what I call "hate." And there's been plenty of it centered around Dash.