Dash is dead. Long live Leebo

3 minutes ago, StriderZessei said:

Then don't equip Collision Detectors, Advanced SLAM, or fly any ships with linked actions.

Personally, I don't use Collision Detector, but I think limited charges are a step in the right direction.

And what do the other two have to do with the discussion?

Just now, JJ48 said:

Personally, I don't use Collision Detector, but I think limited charges are a step in the right direction.

And what do the other two have to do with the discussion?

Just that upgrades and pilot abilities exist to allow ships to do things outside of the normal rules. That's their whole point.

Acting as though Dash is some kind of sordid exception thanks to his ability is just pedantic.

4 minutes ago, StriderZessei said:

Just that upgrades and pilot abilities exist to allow ships to do things outside of the normal rules. That's their whole point.

Acting as though Dash is some kind of sordid exception thanks to his ability is just pedantic.

So, you don't see any real difference between "After you take an action, take one additional action and then gain a stress" (which pretty much every ship can do in some form or another) and "Ignore a feature of the game that has its own setup phase and which, by design, figures heavily into every single other ship's maneuver planning"?

24 minutes ago, StriderZessei said:

For you, maybe. Some of us like flying our favorite ships without gimping our chances at winning.

He is still pretty good, just requires good flying to make use of.

At least now it matters what you set your dial to.

Just now, JJ48 said:

So, you don't see any real difference between "After you take an action, take one additional action and then gain a stress" (which pretty much every ship can do in some form or another) and "Ignore a feature of the game that has its own setup phase and which, by design, figures heavily into every single other ship's maneuver planning"?

Nope, because it's not game-breaking. He still interacts with objects when he isn't moving, and as others have said here, it's not like Dash is OP because of his ability.

Vader can take multiple actions in a turn (balanced because it requires force charges) even though it blatantly ignores the one-action-per-turn rule. There are countless other examples.

2 minutes ago, Icelom said:

He is still pretty good, just requires good flying to make use of.

Just as he always has. Definitely gonna need to re-learn him, though. I'm betting he'll be seeing a 10-15 point decrease.

12 minutes ago, StriderZessei said:

Nope, because it's not game-breaking. He still interacts with objects when he isn't moving, and as others have said here, it's not like Dash is OP because of his ability.

Vader can take multiple actions in a turn (balanced because it requires force charges) even though it blatantly ignores the one-action-per-turn rule. There are countless other examples.

<sigh>

Yes, on the one hand, the case can be made that pretty much every card with abilities "breaks the rules" to a certain extent. This is the nature of such games. However, this does not mean that there cannot be abilities that are poorly designed or which run counter to the overall feel of the game.

As stated before, pretty much all ships can get an additional action. While Vader's ability is good, it still fits with how everything else is designed. Even Collision Detector requires use of charges, meaning this "cheat" has severe restrictions in its usage.

Dash has no such restrictions or universality, and it allows him to ignore a MAJOR concern that all other ships have. Whether or not his ability is overpowered is completely irrelevant; it simply doesn't fit with the rest of the game.

Also, aren't Linked Actions in the rules now? So even by the basic rules, "one action" isn't a strict limit.

3 hours ago, StriderZessei said:

Dash is too fragile to equip Saw. If anything, with Agile Gunner I would slap on Seasoned Navigator. It makes Dash extra tricky.

Dash is the third highest hit point total in the faction, and of that top three is the only one with a two base agility, and on top of that gets bonuses for positioning itself in obstructed places for even more defense. How the heck are you thinking he's too fragile!? For the price of one freaking hit point you get to fire a six die gun, with Jan you coordinate up a lock, and then Saw focuses the shot for crits galore. I'm not worrying about giving up a hit point when I'm not expecting one enemy ship to be there anymore after I'm done firing at I5. That attack could relatively easily one shot a X-wing. Dash doesn't get to be tricky anymore. He gets the BFG award. Which as a former Dash player in 1.0 is probably a good thing, because he was totally an easy button for me back then. Sorry @StriderZessei

48 minutes ago, wurms said:

Dash is dead. Long live Leebo

I was playing with flycasual, before v2 realese, I came to the same conclusion. I tried leebo + the unamed yt2000 ( lot of card wasn't available) and they was brutal and both Almost naked. Follow A, B shoot you with 4 moded dice ( with the new crits, this fourth die matter a lot). If you follow B, A give you the same, follow both and you are doomed. Leebo is very good at defending against swarmish formation ( the big ship arch enemies) as it can mod a eye in all roll. Lot of potential IMO

1 hour ago, ficklegreendice said:

Trust me, the game will be far more enjoyable with a crappy dash than an exceptionally viable one

Another of those rare occasions you and I agree. Make a note in the ships log. ?

1 hour ago, ficklegreendice said:

Trust me, the game will be far more enjoyable with a crappy dash than an exceptionally viable one

Exceptionally viable Dash is in the Imperial faction now and called Whisper w Juke and Collision Detector.

At least we didn’t have to deal with decloaking Dash in 1.0.

2 minutes ago, Tvboy said:

Exceptionally viable Dash is in the Imperial faction now and called Whisper w Juke and Collision Detector.

At least we didn’t have to deal with decloaking Dash in 1.0.

Two charges, five health, no turret

Still can't decloak through obstacles, still suffers effects when out of charges

Not analogous

3 minutes ago, ficklegreendice said:

Two charges, five health, no turret

Still can't decloak through obstacles, still suffers effects when out of charges

Not analogous

While I agree with you. Phantoms can decloacking through obstacles with collision detector.

7 minutes ago, Icelom said:

While I agree with you. Phantoms can decloacking through obstacles with collision detector.

This is correct.

Bistan seems like a trap on Dash. I know comparing crew/gunners from 1.0 to 2.0 is apples to oranges, but Baze wasn't really used at all in 1.0. I think Dash wants to use the rocks to engage the enemy one at a time, not slug it out with 2+ enemy ships at once. Just bring Leebo if you want to brawl.

16 minutes ago, ForceSensitive said:

Dash is the third highest hit point total in the faction, and of that top three is the only one with a two base agility, and on top of that gets bonuses for positioning itself in obstructed places for even more defense. How the heck are you thinking he's too fragile!? For the price of one freaking hit point you get to fire a six die gun, with Jan you coordinate up a lock, and then Saw focuses the shot for crits galore. I'm not worrying about giving up a hit point when I'm not expecting one enemy ship to be there anymore after I'm done firing at I5. That attack could relatively easily one shot a X-wing. Dash doesn't get to be tricky anymore. He gets the BFG award. Which as a former Dash player in 1.0 is probably a good thing, because he was totally an easy button for me back then. Sorry @StriderZessei

10 health for 130+ points is fragile. For less points 3 Blue Xs have 18 health and same agility. Also you are taking damage from Saw every time you attack, not just once.

That also comes back to the point that the only way to make Dash good is to tether him to a slow support ship like a HWK or sheathipede or U-Wing. I don’t want Dash to just be a big dumb gun trotted around on a leash, I want him to soar like a leaf on the wind the way he used to do.

1 hour ago, Tvboy said:

If "playable" means legal, then yes I guess, but nobody was winning games at tournaments with a naked HLC Dash.

The non-boosting Dash did have double mods, he had Lone Wolf and Rey crew, which meant he could Barrel Roll and still have focus and a re-roll for both offense and defense. He also had twice the area coverage with his arcs and didn't have to spend actions moving them, and he could shed a Lock at the start of combat while increasing his agility, and he denied enemy range bonuses at range 3.

I'm not saying he should have retained all this going into 2.0, just that comparing them is apples to oranges. So Dash (as a platform) has way less abilities than he did in 1.0, yet he got more expensive than he was in 1.0, and everything else in the game got stronger, and high PS aces retained their repositioning abilities from 1.0 that were the classic Dash counters.

By that metric, few ships in 2.0 are comparable to their 1.0 counterparts, and most of the compaints about Dash also apply to other large turrets, such as Han, Dengar and Chiraneau. These were always tournament viable even without Engine Upgrade, but it was simply better to have it than not. And sure, turrets are weaker now and occasionally requires an action, but they're still far more reliable than front arc primaries, and the loss of defensive mods such as Autothrusters and token stacking generally compensates for the loss of offensive mods. Maybe Dash has changed; maybe a ton of upgrades is no longer the way to go. I'm pretty sure he's still tournament viable with just Trick Shot, Lone Wolf or Perceptive Copilot.

Personally, I've been scratching my head over similar comments on the Decimator. Been running RAC for a little while now, and he's yet to die in a game, even against swarms. The boosting, double modded fat turret is dead, but that doesn't mean the ships themselves are now useless, it just requires a different playstyle and some thought put into dials and turret arcs.

22 minutes ago, ficklegreendice said:

Two charges, five health, no turret

Still can't decloak through obstacles, still suffers effects when out of charges

Not analogous

Half the cost of a YT-2400 with half the health, but on a small base so much easier to avoid firing arcs and bullseye arcs, can decloak through obstacles without spending charge tokens (decloaking counts as a barrel roll/boost) and only 50% chance of damage and doesn’t lose an action, and unlike Dash can sit on asteroids and still shoot. 2 charge tokens is enough to get the job done especially when they don’t have to spend them to decloak through the rocks in a direction they shouldn’t be able to. Also has insane action economy compared to Dash, free decloak, free evade token from Whisper, Vader strips a green token or deals a damage for free, and Juke makes sure damage goes through, and they can Afterburners on top of all that if they really wanted to.

Seems you haven’t played against a competent Collision Detector Whisper yet, it feels very much like what it was like to play against Dash in 1.0.

Seems you haven't played competently against Collision Detector Whisper if you think it's anything NEAR what 1st edition Dash was like

I know it's been a bit since we've played 1st edition, but come on guys. This **** should still be fresh in our memories

1 minute ago, ficklegreendice said:

Seems you haven't played competently against Collision Detector Whisper if you think it's anything NEAR what 1st edition Dash was like

I know it's been a bit since we've played 1st edition, but come on guys. This **** should still be fresh in our memories

It's cute that you assumed I lost.

Whisper is still a fairly squishy target, and a stack of tokens doesn't always help when you're only rolling two dice. Or one, if facing Protorp Wedge.

2 minutes ago, Okapi said:

Whisper is still a fairly squishy target, and a stack of tokens doesn't always help when you're only rolling two dice. Or one, if facing Protorp Wedge.

Again I feel the need to point out that a fully kitted Whisper costs 75 points (61 if you drop Vader crew), compared to Dash's 114-138 points cost. Yes, if you fly her into your opponent's killbox, she will die, but so will Dash, and Dash's larger profile and far more limited repositioning (not to mention that everyone here suggests tethering him to a coordinate freighter) make it much harder for him to avoid the killbox. My point is that if it's Dash's ignore rocks ability that people seem to complain about so much, Whisper does that way way better for her points cost, and that means that the "Dash is bad is good for the game" argument is rendered moot.

2 minutes ago, Tvboy said:

Again I feel the need to point out that a fully kitted Whisper costs 75 points (61 if you drop Vader crew), compared to Dash's 114-138 points cost. Yes, if you fly her into your opponent's killbox, she will die, but so will Dash, and Dash's larger profile and far more limited repositioning (not to mention that everyone here suggests tethering him to a coordinate freighter) make it much harder for him to avoid the killbox. My point is that if it's Dash's ignore rocks ability that people seem to complain about so much, Whisper does that way way better for her points cost, and that means that the "Dash is bad is good for the game" argument is rendered moot.

Good point. Collision Detector should require you to use a charge to Boost/BR through a rock.

Hey, if you wanna limit Dash's ability to two non-recurring charges I'd be happy to have him cost less than leebo

Till then, better err on the side of caution because comparisons to collision detector are utterly moot