5 minutes ago, SOTL said:

Possibly the best ship in Imperial faction.

... bombers? I suspect the barrage bomber lists doesn't reliably beat the quad phantom list, but it probably reliably beats more other lists.

Whisper has been my fav ship so far in my fav list of 2.0 so far.

Played 4 games with the list, only lost Whisper once. And that game was the only time she's even been hit.

Juke, Colliion Detector, Agent Kallus, Shield Upgrade. Brilliant for my play style at least. Which is to have her on her own while the rest of my list (reaper and 2 aggressors) stay together as a group. She can easily flank, or just give the enemy the run around chasing her.

Juke on them is AMAZING. Even if the enemy has a focus token, so what? You made them spend it when they didn't want to or really need to. Or you make them decide to save their focus but a hit gets through, and you get your second evade for cloaking. And with Agent Kallus, depending on your target you can focus for defence and not need it for attack.

Like with a lot of non-jousting ships, the Phantom takes a bit of practice to fly well and not get killed. But even with 2 greens most of the time, I've found I've kept her alive and out of most arcs pretty easily.

Phantoms are good because theyre like one of the few ships that can take advantage of the cheap upgrades and powerful crew. That said they are nowhere near as interesting or fun as they were in 1.0

1 minute ago, Shazbot said:

Phantoms are good because theyre like one of the few ships that can take advantage of the cheap upgrades and powerful crew. That said they are nowhere near as interesting or fun as they were in 1.0

In your opinion. Used to fly four TIE Phantom generics in 1.0 as a lark just to see who flinches on the other side of the map. I'm so in on the redesign. Not as many attack dice, but that free evade token is nice, as is the extra health. Juke is a bonus! It's like flying four X-Wings that can suddenly jump to the side or forward.

1 minute ago, LagJanson said:

In your opinion.

Of course it is. This is the internet I didnt think literally everything said needed to be prefaced by "in my opinion"

3 hours ago, JJ48 said:

...unless you choose not to decloak, or you cloak as an action.

Also, just realized that the free Evade action is susceptible to stress, so watch out for that.

Why not decloak? It's required for pew-pew and even just for positioning, that 2-boost or barrel roll is great for moving about! You can cloak/decloak even when stressed, but good catch on that free Evade action! But like I said, I'm used to being able to pew-pew and still have the 4 evade dice in 1.0 --- going down to 3 attack dice and 2 defense dice for a 1HP gain doesn't seem worth it for me, but I'm probably flying these things wrong anyway and that's why I'm here to find out!

3 hours ago, nexttwelveexits said:

The fact that Phantoms get a perma-evade to power Juke, without spending their normal action, is really really valuable in 2e. Juke Phantoms & Defenders are top tier menaces. Other talents are certainly viable, but none of them are nearly as efficient , because Juke works practically every time you get a shot, for free . Four points in list building gets you an actionless passive ability that forces your opponent to spend their precious action on defense, or take added damage, while your own actions remain wide open. Your opponent's viable choices are narrowed, and they become inflexible where you remain flexible.

Phantoms are not invincible or superpowered. They're certainly not the 1e version, when their identity was "By Far the Strongest Ship on the Board [If They Shoot First]." Like everything else in 2e, you still have to fly well and not force them to play outside their comfort zone (i.e. hyper-mobile, hyper-efficient flanker demon), and there are still some very unfavorable matchups (things that stack focus tokens or built-in dice mods such as Force users, etc) that you'll have to play around. But all told Phantoms are in a great place.

The first point is only assuming you decloaked that turn and/or weren't stressed, but I see your point. However, is Juke really that much better than Outmaneuver? Is changing dice better than really denying the opposing player the actual roll of that die? Granted Juke works regardless of positioning whereas Outmaneuver isn't.

I'm glad you feel that way in your second paragraph, it gives me hope that the issue is with the player and not the ship!

3 hours ago, Houston8665 said:

I love the design of Phantoms in 2.0. They are loaded with meaningful choices. You can have your 2 extra defense dice but that means choosing not to attack. OP I think you are still hung up on the 1.0 mentality of wanting everything. I understand as it took me a while to fully understand the new reality of the game. In 2.0 Ships are only going to be as good as your choices. If you play to their strengths than just about anything can be good but if you just YOLO in to a group hoping to rely on mods most ships are going to die quickly.

Even in 1.0, I realize they did not have everything. It just feels like they have even less in 2.0 --- in 1.0, they had 4 attack and 4 defense with 4HP if you had ACD, but you'd still pay the price if someone out-initiatives you and you are de-cloaked when they fire. You can still shoot, but you'll be 2 defense for those above you in initiative and 4 defense for those below. In 2.0, they now have 3 attack and 2 defense regardless of initiative with 5HP.

In comparison, the X-Wing still retains 3 attack and 2 defense but how have 6HP in 2.0 when they had 5HP in 1.0. So much for 3 red is now what 4 red used to be....

3 hours ago, DarthSempai said:

and you just got it. That right there, cloaking for repositioning, is THE reason to take a phantom, and, IMO, why echo is better than whisper. I did a very succesfull store championship with a fully loaded out echo build : Echo, Juke, AdvSensor, Perceptive copilot, Stealth Device. And in 4 games she never died, only once did she lose half life. The trick is to force the rest of the engagement with the rest of the list, and make sure that echo is in a 1v1 situation, or just need 1 or 2 damage to trigger one. Then you point fortress and play safe while slinging 3 dice + juke + focus from unexpected angle.

If that's all cloaking is good for now, then yeah, no use in taking Whisper. Can you tell me what the rest of your build was? And what tactics did you use?

2 hours ago, Micanthropyre said:

Don't forget that decloak, getting an evade, recloaking is a really solid way to run away safely when you have no shots. You cover a lot of ground, have excellent defense, and still have the unpredictability of decloak.

I think we'll be having this discussion a lot as players who quit the game return to 2.0 though.

I think I'm quite an aggressive pilot so I may be pushing some bad situations. I should probably learn to skip attacking for a round or two to get a better postion on the enemy, and decloak-evade-cloak is quite good for covering ground.

2 hours ago, heychadwick said:

IFiring first and hitting means you get the free Evade. If you decloaked, that's 2. That's pretty defensive.

I have tried it with Krennic so far. I like getting the Target Lock. I go with FCS for the System. That gives you a die adjustment.

I'll admit I used the ship in a 5 ship list. I like having more than 3 ships as that just seems.....too dangerous.

How'd you get 2 Evades? Am I reading the rules wrong? I do agree with you on Krennic and having to play with MORE ships. My builds are usually 3-ship, I rarely play 4-ship, so maybe they need a bigger group to fly with to shine?

2 hours ago, Ryuneke said:

I’ve flown Echo, whisper and soontir at my first 2.0 tournament and went 5-1. I practiced as much as I could and learned that I have to be super patient with these phantoms. I often kept flying around near my setup area, cloaking and decloaking.

Juke is one of the best talents in the game right now especially if you have multiple ships with it. All the pilots in my tournament list were equipped with it. Even if you can’t do damage, stripping focus tokens is gold in 2.0.

I'd love to know of your build and how you flew!! Care to share? I'm not really after the wins, I don't mind a loss but on a well-fought battle, but at this point, I feel like I'm missing a major lesson in how to fly these things especially in 2.0.

*EDIT* I see you've shared your list, how do you fly it? What's your mind going through during the game?

1 hour ago, SOTL said:

Possibly the best ship in Imperial faction.

I would really, really LOVE to know your thoughts on why you'd say this! I was thinking of trying my beloved Interceptors next or even Vader's Tie Advanced (loved it in the quick-build games I've played) but I really had fun in Phantoms in 1.0 that I'd love to return to them in 2.0.

1 hour ago, player3010587 said:

R3/Stealth device are your friends. With all the evade generation, whisper can easily convert all dice to evade, and thus more greens are better. R3 also allows for some better sentry action of non stop hiking candy canes. Heck, even a vader phantom is fine with r3, as the force is a free calculate.

Also, you don't need collision detector for crazy decloak tricks, although it helps. For example, Decloak forward and k turn covers a lot of ground and ends up behind a juked target with an evade from stygium (which can recliak even weehen stressed!). Sure, no stygium evade next turn, but still slippery and annoying.

Also, without the buzzsaw option, 4 red dice would suck on a phantom. The inability to lock without filling the crew with Krennic would not haul the massive point cost of said 4th die. And that would preclude you from flying Juke Rexler in the same 3 ship squad due to a defender's cost. And that is a shame because of the damage output and survivability of the duo, especially when combined with epic filler such as Soontir or Redline..

Yeah, both of them had Stealth Device and Collision Detector which was very useful! Both had Jukes too. Then Soontir with Outmaneuver and Stealth Device.

I don't get what you're saying with R3?

4 hours ago, thespaceinvader said:

They lost a LOT, but they also lost a TONNE of points, so... they're amazing.

Not really. You still can't fit more than 3 tricked out Phantoms and even for 4 Phantoms, they're only taking Juke, so....

49 minutes ago, InterceptorMad said:

Whisper has been my fav ship so far in my fav list of 2.0 so far.

Played 4 games with the list, only lost Whisper once. And that game was the only time she's even been hit.

Juke, Colliion Detector, Agent Kallus, Shield Upgrade. Brilliant for my play style at least. Which is to have her on her own while the rest of my list (reaper and 2 aggressors) stay together as a group. She can easily flank, or just give the enemy the run around chasing her.

Juke on them is AMAZING. Even if the enemy has a focus token, so what? You made them spend it when they didn't want to or really need to. Or you make them decide to save their focus but a hit gets through, and you get your second evade for cloaking. And with Agent Kallus, depending on your target you can focus for defence and not need it for attack.

Like with a lot of non-jousting ships, the Phantom takes a bit of practice to fly well and not get killed. But even with 2 greens most of the time, I've found I've kept her alive and out of most arcs pretty easily.

What was the rest of your list? I think the trick here is getting the enemy to prioritize the rest of your squad but with all those upgrades on Whisper, this can be a challenge! The rest of the squad should present a worse threat or at least an easier target.

I may not be appreciating Juke as much as I should.

44 minutes ago, Shazbot said:

Phantoms are good because theyre like one of the few ships that can take advantage of the cheap upgrades and powerful crew. That said they are nowhere near as interesting or fun as they were in 1.0

Especially pre-nerf!

Whisper is the new Dash Rendar of 2.0. Collision detector combined with a free hull upgrade and 2 free evade tokens means they’re pretty idiot-proof now. Throw Vader crew and Juke on there for good measure and it almost feels like they have more attack dice than they used to.

I find it ironic that so many Imperial players complained about Dash but have no problems with a Phantom that can ignore rocks and even shoot while sitting on them, which Dash couldn’t even do.

3 minutes ago, Tvboy said:

Whisper is the new Dash Rendar of 2.0. Collision detector combined with a free hull upgrade and 2 free evade tokens means they’re pretty idiot-proof now. Throw Vader crew and Juke on there for good measure and it almost feels like they have more attack dice than they used to.

I find it ironic that so many Imperial players complained about Dash but have no problems with a Phantom that can ignore rocks and even shoot while sitting on them, which Dash couldn’t even do.

most imperial players huff paint and wear padded helmets

49 minutes ago, Games'n'Geeks said:

How'd you get 2 Evades? Am I reading the rules wrong? I do agree with you on Krennic and having to play with MORE ships. My builds are usually 3-ship, I rarely play 4-ship, so maybe they need a bigger group to fly with to shine?

Sorry, I was using Whisper. So, 1 for decloak and 2 for hitting (with FCS). It gives good defense for offense. I liked going before them as I was less worried about arc dodging.

I do think more ships is better with this ship. It's meant to be a flanker, but hard to flank when you only have 2 other ships, especially if those ships are ar Dodgers. Think hammer and anvil. You need to draw their attention away from your flankers. If all you have is flankers, they wont let you flank.

55 minutes ago, Games'n'Geeks said:

How'd you get 2 Evades? Am I reading the rules wrong?

You get to do a evade action when you decloak. So you decloak, evade, then move and do a normal action. Whisper can get an evade TOKEN (not action) after she does an attack that hits. So you have 2 tokens most of the time with her. Having 2 evades most of the time makes Juke an easy take for me, and easier to have work than Outmaneuver. All you have to do is shoot with an evade, not even spend it. And with Agent Kallus letting you mod a focus for free against certain targets, it makes them having to spend a focus even harsher in comparison.

Rest of my list is: Vizier Reaper with Deathtroopers and Shield, 2 Aggressors with Ion Turrets. If they chase Whisper, those ions can get very pesky. If they go for that group, it's still 3 ships to kill, again with pesky ion, while Whisper is left alone to go where she likes.

The other day, despite losing the game, a Han falcon and 2 x-wings chased Whisper for SO many turns and couldn't quite catch her in range 3. Decloaking forward and then doing a 3 bank/4 forward can really get you across the board fast. Then you just cloak as your action and they are trying to catch you at range 3 with 5 greens and an evade.

And as for another question, "why not decloak?", it can REALLY mess up your opponant's moves if they set their dials assuming you were decloaking and then you don't. And you free up your action that turn for a focus to go super defensive while you just avoid arcs and get a better decloak position for next turn.

1 hour ago, Games'n'Geeks said:

Not really. You still can't fit more than 3 tricked out Phantoms and even for 4 Phantoms, they're only taking Juke, so....

What was the rest of your list? I think the trick here is getting the enemy to prioritize the rest of your squad but with all those upgrades on Whisper, this can be a challenge! The rest of the squad should present a worse threat or at least an easier target.

I may not be appreciating Juke as much as I should.

Which is one more tricked out phantom than you could in 4e, and infinitely more elite generics. 4 I4s with Juke and free evades is a LOT of ship.

3 hours ago, thespaceinvader said:

... bombers? I suspect the barrage bomber lists doesn't reliably beat the quad phantom list, but it probably reliably beats more other lists.

Yep, bombers are tied with phantoms

Bombers are undeniably better jousters, but phantoms are ridiculously mobile. So it depends on what you like to play

They really don't compete with one another because they serve vastly different purposes, but you can also easily use both in a list

Phantoms are great fun right now. Just don’t put a ton of points into them, because it caught they can go up in flames pretty fast. Juke Whisper with nothing else is a monster for 1/4 or 1/3 of your list.

Phantom/Juke/Vader crew is a nasty combo too, Vader is doing damage or stripping the focus token before juke kicks in, and also the force point is very handy for defence if you need to turtle up at any point.

5 minutes ago, Max Teranous said:

Phantom/Juke/Vader crew is a nasty combo too, Vader is doing damage or stripping the focus token before juke kicks in, and also the force point is very handy for defence if you need to turtle up at any point.

Gives you a chance to do damage while cloaked also. My next list has a Vader Juke Whisper in it.

4 hours ago, Tvboy said:

Whisper is the new Dash Rendar of 2.0. Collision detector combined with a free hull upgrade and 2 free evade tokens means they’re pretty idiot-proof now. Throw Vader crew and Juke on there for good measure and it almost feels like they have more attack dice than they used to.

I find it ironic that so many Imperial players complained about Dash but have no problems with a Phantom that can ignore rocks and even shoot while sitting on them, which Dash couldn’t even do.

Having flown Defenders, I loved the sight of Dash, as it meant a good game was to be had. When flying a silencer, I pitied the r1 bubble. I didn't see dash as a negative play experience.

37 minutes ago, player3010587 said:

Having flown Defenders, I loved the sight of Dash, as it meant a good game was to be had. When flying a silencer, I pitied the r1 bubble. I didn't see dash as a negative play experience.

It depended on what you were flying. Some archetypes were sunk before the game began. That was a game design flaw.

36 minutes ago, dsul413 said:

Gives you a chance to do damage while cloaked also. My next list has a Vader Juke Whisper in it.

Good point, that didn't happen in my game so it didn't occur to me.

4 hours ago, heychadwick said:

Sorry, I was using Whisper. So, 1 for decloak and 2 for hitting (with FCS). It gives good defense for offense. I liked going before them as I was less worried about arc dodging.

I do think more ships is better with this ship. It's meant to be a flanker, but hard to flank when you only have 2 other ships, especially if those ships are ar Dodgers. Think hammer and anvil. You need to draw their attention away from your flankers. If all you have is flankers, they wont let you flank.

I should've known that but I guess I roll so badly it's a miracle any of my opponent's ships die. Speaking of hammer and anvil, what would be a good pair up for the Phantoms then? I think my mistake might be pairing up fragile ships.... interceptors and phantoms. Maybe some cheap TIEs?

4 hours ago, InterceptorMad said:

Rest of my list is: Vizier Reaper with Deathtroopers and Shield, 2 Aggressors with Ion Turrets. If they chase Whisper, those ions can get very pesky. If they go for that group, it's still 3 ships to kill, again with pesky ion, while Whisper is left alone to go where she likes.

And as for another question, "why not decloak?", it can REALLY mess up your opponant's moves if they set their dials assuming you were decloaking and then you don't. And you free up your action that turn for a focus to go super defensive while you just avoid arcs and get a better decloak position for next turn.

Thanks for sharing your list! I stopped playing well before the Reaper and the Aggressors came to the scene so never had their models.... and I guess I have a nasty habit of not looking at stuff I don't have models for. Regarding decloaking, again, why not? I guess it can mess with the opponent if they were expecting me to be doing a 2 straight boost (if I was next to an asteroid, for example) then they find out I'm going to be way out of range, but not decloaking does not free up an action, if anything, I miss out on a free evade.

4 hours ago, thespaceinvader said:

Which is one more tricked out phantom than you could in 4e, and infinitely more elite generics. 4 I4s with Juke and free evades is a LOT of ship.

A no-name, PS4 Phantom with Juke isn't anywhere near tricked out But I guess it is better than what you could push out in 1.0

1 hour ago, Max Teranous said:

Phantom/Juke/Vader crew is a nasty combo too, Vader is doing damage or stripping the focus token before juke kicks in, and also the force point is very handy for defence if you need to turtle up at any point.

I like that and it just might be more threatening than my current Echo+Juke+StealthDevice+CollisionDetector build but with +3 cost, but how is the force point handy for turtling up?

1 hour ago, dsul413 said:

Gives you a chance to do damage while cloaked also. My next list has a Vader Juke Whisper in it.

Why Whisper and not Echo?

The force point can be another dice mod if needed.

How? Vader affects the other ship, not my own.

12 minutes ago, Games'n'Geeks said:

How? Vader affects the other ship, not my own.

You choose to spend the Force point, but it’s still yours to spend. So if you don’t use Vader’s ability that round you can spend the Force point like any other.

I prefer Whisper to Echo right now because of I5 and her ability, getting extra defensive modifications from her attacks. Makes it easier when you can spend an evade to dodge an attack and still spend your other evade token to cloak.

24 minutes ago, dsul413 said:

You choose to spend the Force point, but it’s still yours to spend. So if you don’t use Vader’s ability that round you can spend the Force point like any other.

I prefer Whisper to Echo right now because of I5 and her ability, getting extra defensive modifications from her attacks. Makes it easier when you can spend an evade to dodge an attack and still spend your other evade token to cloak.

This.

Echo is fun and hard to pin down, but Whisper is a lot more durable and has a higher initiative.