9 hours ago, Aluminium Falcon said:

To be fair, how Snoke went out is not significantly more lame than being tossed over a balcony while doing electric jazz hands.

To be fair, that was the culmination of Vader/Anakin's personal arc. Much more epic and meaningful in my opinion. It signified Anakin's rejection of the dark side. Kylo killing Snoke, while pretty cool, was him just doing what darksiders do. All it really showed was that Kylo knew how to manipulate Snoke and that Snoke woefully underestimated him. Totally different thematically.

1 hour ago, ghatt said:

To be fair, that was the culmination of Vader/Anakin's personal arc. Much more epic and meaningful in my opinion. It signified Anakin's rejection of the dark side. Kylo killing Snoke, while pretty cool, was him just doing what darksiders do. All it really showed was that Kylo knew how to manipulate Snoke and that Snoke woefully underestimated him. Totally different thematically.

You're leaving out all the stuff about how it plays with Rey's attempt to turn Kylo back towards the light.

6 minutes ago, Stan Fresh said:

You're leaving out all the stuff about how it plays with Rey's attempt to turn Kylo back towards the light.

I didn't leave it out, she was mistaken. He wasn't turning towards the light.

2 hours ago, ghatt said:

I didn't leave it out, she was mistaken. He wasn't turning towards the light.

I said "attempt" for a reason.

1 minute ago, Stan Fresh said:

I said "attempt" for a reason.

and? I'm not entirely sure what point you're trying to make.

39 minutes ago, ghatt said:

and? I'm not entirely sure what point you're trying to make.

That you're misrepresenting the scene by leaving out parts of it.

23 minutes ago, Stan Fresh said:

That you're misrepresenting the scene by leaving out parts of it.

Okay... So you are just trying to be contrary. Thought so.

My point is that the moment is not equivalent to our villains, ie Vader and Kylo Ren. To Vader it was the culmination of his character arc, to Kylo it's just a part of it, we haven't seen his big moment yet, or if he'll even get one. He is the villain after all. I wasn't discussing the significance of the moment in regards to Luke or Rey, simply Vader and Kylo.

Palpatine's death was Vader's salvation. Snoke's death wasn't the moment Kylo rejected the light, he had already done that when he killed his father, it was just the next step towards him becoming the BBEG. Not saying the scene wasn't cool or interesting, just not the same thematically as the one in ROTJ. Not saying it wasn't an important scene to Kylo. Killing Snoke and becoming the BBEG is a big moment for him, but it's not the same as Vader's salvation. And that's my opinion, much like I stated in the first post. YMMV.

13 minutes ago, ghatt said:

Okay... So you are   just trying to be contrary. Thought so.

IRONY IS DEAD

5 minutes ago, Stan Fresh said:

IRONY IS DEAD

Stan, think what you want. I couldn't care less. Have a good night.

3 hours ago, ghatt said:

To Vader it was the culmination of his character arc, to Kylo it's just a part of it,

By George, I think you’ve got it!

That’s the point.

Well, that and, as mentioned earlier, to remove the villain’s boss from the picture so that, once the hero faces down the villain in the conclusion, it’s not a false climax, with the hero still having to overcome a supporting character.

(Or, alternatively, in a 9 that still has Luke, too, having the climactic confrontation for the fate of the galaxy be between them: two supporting characters.)

29 minutes ago, Nytwyng said:

(Or, alternatively, in a 9 that still has Luke, too, having the climactic confrontation for the fate of the galaxy be between them: two supporting characters.)

Honestly, there's no reason that Luke has to be dead. Ezra used the force to time travel and save Ahsoka from Vader. He could have vanished into that force conduit that Ezra was running around in for all we know. I think it'd be a bit silly, but I wouldn't put anything past JJ after seeing what he did with Star Trek. His hand certainly didn't go clunk after he went poof, so he took that with him wherever he went, lol. Rian Johnson and JJ both seem fond of time travel anyway.

Though we didn't see Ashoka die, and we did see Luke die.

The Ashoka thing didn't change the past, just removed her to the future.

12 minutes ago, Darzil said:

Though we didn't see Ashoka die, and we did see Luke die.

Did we though? We saw him disappear, that's it.

Probably, but there's no guarantee until the next movie lands.

8 minutes ago, Darzil said:

The Ashoka thing didn't change the past, just removed her to the future.

That makes no sense to me.

Had we seen Ashoka die, and then he went back and rescued her before that, it'd be changing the past.

Instead we knew nothing of Ashoka beyond her being in a fight with Darth Vader, so how/if she escaped was unknown. We just knew that she hadn't been seen since.

It's a bit silly that she escaped into the future, but it doesn't change anything we knew about her fate.

We haven't seen any change in the timeline. (No Flashpoints here!)

2 minutes ago, Darzil said:

Had we seen Ashoka die, and then he went back and rescued her before that, it'd be changing the past.

Instead we knew nothing of Ashoka beyond her being in a fight with Darth Vader, so how/if she escaped was unknown. We just knew that she hadn't been seen since.

It's a bit silly that she escaped into the future, but it doesn't change anything we knew about her fate.

We haven't seen any change in the timeline. (No Flashpoints here!)

That's only because we've been viewing the timeline with Ezra saving her. As you state, we don't see her die or any repercussions from it. Doesn't mean the past wasn't changed, we just never saw it. But I do definitely agree, it's a bit silly.

So in a round about way, we agree.

4 minutes ago, Darzil said:

Had we seen Ashoka die, and then he went back and rescued her before that, it'd be changing the past.

Instead we knew nothing of Ashoka beyond her being in a fight with Darth Vader, so how/if she escaped was unknown. We just knew that she hadn't been seen since.

It's a bit silly that she escaped into the future, but it doesn't change anything we knew about her fate.

We haven't seen any change in the timeline. (No Flashpoints here!)

We also saw, in the distance, a form resembling her entering that (cave/structure/whatever), later shown more definitively to be her.

As you say, the later episode didn’t change anything; it just showed us the details.

9 hours ago, ghatt said:

To be fair, that was the culmination of Vader/Anakin's personal arc. Much more epic and meaningful in my opinion. It signified Anakin's rejection of the dark side. Kylo killing Snoke, while pretty cool, was him just doing what darksiders do. All it really showed was that Kylo knew how to manipulate Snoke and that Snoke woefully underestimated him. Totally different thematically.

Possibly but 1/3 of the story remains to be seen as we are still shy a movie. It could be brilliant or bulldroppings.

And even so, "Vader in conflict" was new information presented in RotJ. In ESB, from what we actually see presented, he was in full torture the kid's friend for attention, let's overthrow the evil boss and be evil bosses, "what darksiders do" mode. He just got too pushy and hand-choppy about it and blew the sale.

5 minutes ago, Aluminium Falcon said:

And even so, "Vader in conflict" was new information presented in RotJ. In ESB, from what we actually see presented, he was in full torture the kid's friend for attention, let's overthrow the evil boss and be evil bosses, "what darksiders do" mode. He just got too pushy and hand-choppy about it and blew the sale.

Yeah, I agree.

1 hour ago, ghatt said:

Did we though? We saw him disappear, that's it.

Probably, but there's no guarantee until the next movie lands.

Yes, we did. Luke died . He became one with the Force, just like Obi Wan and Yoda. This has been confirmed by Ryan Johnson, JJ Abrams, and even Mark Hammil.

2 minutes ago, Tramp Graphics said:

Yes, we did. Luke died . He became one with the Force, just like Obi Wan and Yoda. This has been confirmed by Ryan Johnson, JJ Abrams, and even Mark Hammil.

Nuh uhh... lol

To expound on that, things change...

And, I did say he probably did.

Ok, he is as dead as Obi Wan and Yoda.

6 minutes ago, Darzil said:

Ok, he is as dead as Obi Wan and Yoda.

Yep.

10 minutes ago, Tramp Graphics said:

Yep.

Maybe, probably. Most likely.

But in a movie with silly gag after silly gag, they missed the most obvious with his hand going clunk against the rocks. Would’ve fit right in with the rest of that ‘masterpiece.’

It was very nice of Rian Johnson to leave one joke for a future spaceballs or family guy special though.

That a movie that teaches reverence for the past includes moving on from it and vilifies gripping the past until it twists to fit your desires is as divisive as it is should not be a surprise.

That said, the fact that it is a surprise possibly speaks to the value of the lesson.