27 minutes ago, Cavgunner said:

I say this not to request sympathy (frankly I could care less),

To quote Alfred Matthew Yankovic, “That means you do care. At least a little.” ?

What I liked is that Rian J. asked the question for each character: What is the toughest thing that this person could face?

For Luke it was that 1) he was corruptible by the dark and 2) that he didn't live up to expectations.

For Rey it was that 1) her parents were not important and 2) that the great Luke Skywalker was not all that great. Moreover, that her search for her place in the galaxy was no closer to being found.

For Poe it was that being a great pilot isn't enough.

For Leia it was that 'hope' was lost.

etc, etc.

Like it or not, this makes for good story telling. I think there is a good lesson there for us RPG-types.

12 minutes ago, Cavgunner said:

Tramp, I appreciate the response. With respect, I'm not entirely comfortable being told what I expected when I walked into that theater. If you could refrain from that, that would be appreciated. And frankly, I don't exactly remember anyway. I do remember how strongly I felt when I left, which is why we are conversing.

I think your assessment is exactly what Rian and his team tried to do. As I have stated previously, I actually appreciate that Disney tried to take things in a fresh direction. But as I've stated, the details of the actual execution simply didn't work for me, and I've stated the numerous reasons why. So again, we disagree. Not the end of the world.

That's fine. There are parts of the movie I wish were done differently, such as Rey's parentage (which is still technically up in the air and hasn't really been answered fully yet anyway). However, that didn't keep me from having a blast watching the movie.

9 minutes ago, VadersMarchKazoo said:

What I liked is that Rian J. asked the question for each character: What is the toughest thing that this person could face?

For Luke it was that 1) he was corruptible by the dark and 2) that he didn't live up to expectations.

For Rey it was that 1) her parents were not important and 2) that the great Luke Skywalker was not all that great. Moreover, that her search for her place in the galaxy was no closer to being found.

For Poe it was that being a great pilot isn't enough.

For Leia it was that 'hope' was lost.

etc, etc.

Like it or not, this makes for good story telling. I think there is a good lesson there for us RPG-types.

Pretty much.

But seriously...

43 minutes ago, Cavgunner said:

Well Ny, what you say is laudable. Unfortunately, that is not what is occurring here.

To put it another way, I understand and accept that people liked TLJ.

And yet, the idea that someone such as myself wouldn't like TLJ has been derided and treated with dismissive arrogance, up to and including attacks on intelligence and character. I say this not to request sympathy (frankly I could care less), but merely to illustrate how what you are suggesting is quite impossible.

It’s not impossible. In fact, it’s necessary.

If - to use this conversation as an example - Tramp is saying (to paraphrase) that the audience’s theories, plot point expectations, etc. don’t and shouldn’t matter in the production process, but you’re replying by saying that your reaction to the finished product does and should matter, you’re not having the same conversation; you don’t have a baseline to effectively communicate your own (yeah, I’m gonna go there) Certain Points of View.

@Nytwyng nailed it exactly. IT's not what people's final reactions to the movie that are irrelevant. It's what they expected to happen going in which is irrelevant to what the creators were trying to create.

Regarding agendas in "Star Wars"...

I was discussing this thread with a friend and they asked me to share this thought on their behalf:

Quote

" For over a thousand generations, the Jedi Knights were the guardians of peace and justice in the Old Republic. Before the dark times, before the Empire." - Obi-wan Kenobi, "Star Wars"

With this line, we are first introduced to the Jedi and they are literal "Social Justice Warriors"... so there is a tradition here.

Of course, that invites us to examine what the prequels and especially the new trilogy have to say about the tradition of SJWs in "Star Wars", but that feels like a different rabbit hole to go down on another, future thread.

13 minutes ago, Aluminium Falcon said:

Regarding agendas in "Star Wars"...

I was discussing this thread with a friend and they asked me to share this thought on their behalf:

With this line, we are first introduced to the Jedi and they are literal "Social Justice Warriors"... so there is a tradition here.

Of course, that invites us to examine what the prequels and especially the new trilogy have to say about the tradition of SJWs in "Star Wars", but that feels like a different rabbit hole to go down on another, future thread.

Don't be ridiculous. Classic adventure movies never had an agenda. That's why Raiders of the Lost Ark was decidedly neutral towards nazis.

5 hours ago, Nytwyng said:

The guards did not provoke him. They barred his path as he attempted to enter their employer’s dwelling uninvited. He could have - as he did with Bib Fortuna - mind tricked them. But, the Luke you grew up with chose to assault them.

The Luke you grew up with had (literally) disarmed Darth Freaking Vader, yet continued to hammer at him mercilessly. He surrendered to his darker impulses for more than a moment, finally regaining his composure. He never expressed any regret for his actions.

The Luke you grew up with sensed nothing but darkness in his sleeping nephew, momentarily considered surrendering to his darker impulses again, then thought better of it. He expressed shame and regret over that momentary lapse, and considered it a failure of his own moral character.

Nothing out of context in any of these analyses of what we’ve been shown on screen about the Luke you grew up with.

And the Luke you grew up with? He’s also the Luke I grew up with. I see nothing inconsistent with his portrayal 30 years on in TLJ. Now...here’s the thing: it can be consistent with his established characterization and still not appeal to you. You didn’t care for it. That’s more than fair. That doesn’t mean it’s inconsistent and it doesn’t mean that, it consistent, you’re required to enjoy it.

I can relate, too. I’m a lifelong comics fan. My all-time favorite comic is The New Teen Titans. My all-time favorite comics character is D!ck Grayson (take that, overly-cautious profanity filter!), be it as the original Robin, Nightwing, or Batman’s successor. There’s a live-action Titans series that just debuted on DC’s new streaming service. And I have sub-zero interest in it, based on the trailer. I don’t care for the TV-MA approach. But in particular, I don’t care for how they’re positioning the good Mr. Grayson. One of the big storylines in NTT was the rift that developed between him and Batman, leading to abandoning the Robin identity (because, as he said, Robin would always be the back half of “Batman and...”) and becoming Nightwing. But, they’ve opted to dial it up to 11, with Robin killing street thugs (according to one review, he even uses garden shears to...um...remove his civilian namesake from one), and moving on to the big “money moment” of the trailer where he declares, “F**k Batman.” So, while (at least some of) the behavior is consistent with that storyline, I don’t like how they seem to be going about it.

So...I get it. I’m not trying to say that, because Luke’s behavior is consistent with what’s come before, you’re required to like it. Simply that, just because you don’t like it, that doesn’t make it inconsistent.

Gonna have to agree to disagree. I tire of these kind of conversations, they’re pointless as neither one of us is going to change our minds. I could counter everything you just wrote, but what’s the point? I don’t have the time, nor the energy.

Have a good day, man. I’m glad you could enjoy the film. Wish I could as well, but, alas, I cannot.

6 hours ago, StriderZessei said:

I hate to be that guy, but it's couldn't.

No.

If you made the effort to make sure that you care the least amount about something then you care about it more than if don't bother to make sure that you could care less.

Personally I found the constant subversion of standard tropes jarring on first viewing of TLJ. I also enjoyed them. But I found myself watching the movie for them, not for the story, dialogue or characters.

Second time around, knowing the twists coming, I enjoyed the movie a LOT more.

58 minutes ago, Darzil said:

Personally I found the constant subversion of standard tropes jarring on first viewing of TLJ. I also enjoyed them. But I found myself watching the movie for them, not for the story, dialogue or characters.

Second time around, knowing the twists coming, I enjoyed the movie a LOT more.

That seems to be the case for a number of folks that end up liking the film, needing to see it a second time to fully absorb/appreciate what it's trying to do, or even just be able to fully process what it was they saw the first time around.

1 hour ago, Donovan Morningfire said:

That seems to be the case for a number of folks that end up liking the film, needing to see it a second time to fully absorb/appreciate what it's trying to do, or even just be able to fully process what it was they saw the first time around.

Or they just become resigned to accept it. You say it makes them think, I say it breaks down their will and hopes for something better.

5 minutes ago, HappyDaze said:

Or they just become resigned to accept it. You say it makes them think, I say it breaks down their will and hopes for something better.

Interesting when someone who takes exception to being told that their negative response to a movie isn’t genuine (especially when that was never said) turns around and says that others’ positive reactions to that same movie aren’t genuine....

1 hour ago, Nytwyng said:

Interesting when someone who takes exception to being told that their negative response to a movie isn’t genuine (especially when that was never said) turns around and says that others’ positive reactions to that same movie aren’t genuine....

Now you see how it can work both ways.

7 minutes ago, HappyDaze said:

Now you see how it can work both ways circumstances can be misrepresented to try making a point.

Fixed that for you.

INTHE GRIM FUTUREPAST OF A GALAXY FAR FAR AWAY ONLY NEGATIVITY IS VALID

4 minutes ago, Stan Fresh said:

INTHE GRIM FUTUREPAST OF A GALAXY FAR FAR AWAY ONLY NEGATIVITY IS VALID

Apparently the only "true" Star Wars fans are the ones endlessly kavitching about how horrible the new films/books/shows are.

Everyone else is just a moronic poseur, even if they watched the original films in the theaters, for being so brain-dead as to like the new material.

Frankly, there are times that I half-wish George Lucas' predictions for how Star Wars would do were correct, and that the one film simply faded into obscurity after that, just to spare us from having to deal those self-proclaimed "true fans."

On 10/15/2018 at 12:11 PM, StriderZessei said:

If you think in movies women can only be strong and men can never be fallible unless it's to push an agenda, there's something wrong with your worldview.

Alrighty then, let me expand on my point:

I do not find it fair in ANY instance where one party (regardless of who or what that party is) is held accountable for failures where another party makes equal or bigger mistakes and is simply passed along.

The Example in TLJ: Holdo vs Poe

Poe: leads a mission to defend the evacuation ship, but then presses his advantage a bit too hard and walks away with a Pyrrhic victory, but a victory none the less. They lost far more troops than they needed to, and it highlighted how Poe can be quick to jump into the action while failing to take in the big picture. He is demoted, and his lesson is learned by the end of the film.

Holdo: Takes over for Leia after she goes into a coma and then never explains what the plan is despite being asked multiple times by Poe (and before rank comes into this, Poe is still a figurehead among the fighters and they obviously listen to him regardless of his rank, so having him calmed down will subsequently calm down those who look to him for leadership). She then proceeds to lose two out of the three ships that they start with, and with no apparent reason from Poe's point of view. She continues to exclude a majority of the crew from the plan, leading to a mutiny (and a just one at that. They made the choice based on all available information and decided mutiny was the more survivable option). So Holdo shows up, immediately insults Poe, then allows an easily preventable mutiny to occur. As someone who teaches leadership classes, this marks a massive failure as a leader. Yet, Holdo is still revered as a hero when the plan finally comes to light.

So, looking at the situation it effectively boiled down to

Poe acts on what he feels is best: BAD

Holdo acts what she feels is best: GOOD

It is two different people who did essentially the same thing (from a storyteller's perspective) but were treated completely different. Both were failures on the character's part. Both should have been punished accordingly, yet Holdo faces no punishment (and is even praised by Leia in the end) despite her failure.

Likewise, in the final scene of Finn and Rose, Finn is charging forward to save the day, a move that would have stopped the First Order from breaching the fortress and saved what was left of the Resistance. Finn does what he thinks is right. Rose charges in and stops him, allowing the First Order to break the wall and gain access to the base (which would have then been a massacre were it not for Luke) because she decided Finn was wrong. Rose did what she felt was right. And so what Rose thought was right overrode what Finn thought was right for no real explained reason. (once again, from a storyteller's perspective. realistically, of course, she won out because she hit his speeder out of the way, so physics decided for him)

There, that's my additional two cents. Once again, all of this is how I saw it from my perspective based on my own personal storytelling preferences and life experiences.

Re: Poe vs Holdo

Everything we know about whether or not Holdo brought essential personnel into the loop regarding her plan comes entirely from Poe’s perspective. Poe’s most recent actions were to disobey direct orders of a leader that he supposedly respected, resulting in heavy (arguably unnecessary) losses and his demotion, placing him out of that loop. The failure of Holdo’s plan stems directly from Poe’s continued insubordination.

But then, that’s the point of Poe’s arc in the movie: learning the difference between being a hero and being a leader.

My last comment and then I need to stop debating because I still love Star Wars and don't want to appear as though I don't.

In terms of my Mary Sue comment, and the response that Luke was as well.

Yeah, he kinda was. A lot of protagonists today are wonder-characters that magically can do what the plot needs them to do, but I just felt like it wasn't very well disguised in the character of Rey. At least Luke had SOME flight experience before jumping into an X-Wing (though that doesn't really excuse the fact that the Rebels let a total stranger go on a critical mission that could lead to their destruction on the word of exactly one other pilot who was still new to the organization himself...). Rey jut kinda DOES IT and turns out to be a pretty good pilot. The mechanics thing I buy because she grew up a junker, mechanical knowledge makes sense, but she can also pick up and use a lightsaber (a weightless blade that is extraordinarily dangerous to people who are not trained with them) and use it well enough to go toe to toe with Kylo Ren. Now, Finn used it too which was also kinda stretching things, but he had energy weapons training, so there was at least a qualifier there (though a stun tonfa is a totally different beast than a lightsaber and the training only works if you really don't think too hard about it).

Ultimately, every protag is going to magically be able to do what the plot needs them to do because we want to see heroes defying the odds. Heck, that's why we play this game: we want to BE that hero that lands the lucky shot to kill the bad guy and save the day. In the case of Rey, I just can't really make myself believe a lot of it. It's not that I don't like her, it just that I don't find her as believable as say Jyn Erso in the "magically knows how to do that" category.

Of course, her story isn't finished, so I reserve my final judgement on ALL of my current opinions until we see what happens in IX. It's hard to judge a character whose story isn't finished.

1 hour ago, Nytwyng said:

Fixed that for you.

You can keep on telling me how exquisite the emperor's new clothes are, but I'm just not seeing it.

10 pages in!!!! I'll save money and time by not bothering with the amazing trailers and media hype for ep9.1 (I'm expecting a shed load to try to get us haters to forgive and part with our cash)... I went to watch ep8 after recommendation from a work friend,,,, I should have listened to my gut instinct after ep7 and not bothered...Each to their own I suppose.

1 minute ago, HappyDaze said:

You can keep on telling me how exquisite the emperor's new clothes are, but I'm just not seeing it.

Who’s doing that?

No one has said that anyone who disliked TLJ - or any movie - is required to enjoy it.

What has been said is that some have expressed that dislike in extreme, sometimes inappropriate and toxic ways; that some have given some reasons or asked questions that don’t seem to add up, but meanwhile (here’s the important part) they’re still allowed to dislike it .

Then there are those who didn’t care for the movie, haven’t taken part in the toxic behavior, but go out of their way to take offense if someone suggests that those who did aren’t doing anyone any favors. Often, these individuals seem to adopt an even more binary viewpoint than those who do exhibit boorish behavior.

@evo454 , I must say, I can appreciate how you’re presenting your perspective.

Re: Rey vs Luke as Mary Sues

Can we honestly say that we know Luke had significant piloting experience at the outset of his journey, at least based solely on what we see on screen? We see him playing with a toy/model ship while working on the droids. He drives a landspeeder. He mouths off to Han that he’s “not such a bad pilot (him)self,” directly after being challenged when he balks at the price Han asks for their passage to Alderaan. He claims to have bulls-eyed 7-foot long rats (!) from his “T-16 back home” (which means nothing to us, the viewer). Then jumps in a fighter to take part in the most important battle the Alliance has taken part in to date.

If we compare to Rey, we see her don a pilot’s helmet (equivalent to playing with the Skyhopper model), ride a speeder, declare herself to be a pilot to Finn (equivalent to “not such a bad pilot myself”), then jump into the Falcon to escape the First Order TIEs, expressing some doubt that she’ll be able to follow through.

So, it seems that, as far as piloting goes, we’ve got roughly the same credentials established for both of them until they each pull some amazing piloting out of their respective bags of tricks.

She also didn’t seem to demonstrate much finesse or skill when using the saber, treating it much like the staff we’d seen her wield on Jakku. Her edge came from Kylo Ren’s injuries. The movie went to great lengths to show us how powerful Chewie’s bowcaster was. While everyone else hit by it went flying, he took the blast and stayed standing, shown to be bleeding profusely as a result.

None of that is to say, “See? Now, take back what you said, you ol’ meanie!” It’s just presenting a different perspective.

@evo454 , to add to what @Nytwyng said, Rey also trained on a flight simulator she scavenged. That’s how she learned to pilot, much like Luke having learned to fly piloting a T-16.