4 minutes ago, evo454 said:

Rey  is still biggest Mary Sue in modern media (in my opinion) 

By all counts, Luke was too...

19 minutes ago, evo454 said:

19 minutes ago, evo454 said:

I'm here to pitch my two cents.

I personally liked TLJ, however, I am the kind of person who will automatically think highly of something Star Wars simply because it is Star Wars. It's my childhood and the basis for a lot of friendships and the inspiration for what I'm currently studying in college, so Star Wars is and will always be a major influence on my life. However, I feel like I was let down by TLJ not because simply because of the politics involved or the outside controversy, but because it felt like they sacrificed the story in multiple places because they wanted to make a message.

-Luke didn't develop at all from RotJ despite all the years that had passed and the adventures there-in

-Rey is still biggest Mary Sue in modern media (in my opinion)

-Poe doesn't really get an arc, he just get's made the fool because Holdo is a crap leader

-Holdo gets praise despite being a crap leader

-Finn has a HUGE arc stolen from him by Rose at the very end

-Rose... was present... wasn't a huge fan of her, but other than the final act I really didn't have anything against her. Plus Tran did a good job acting the role despite the role itself not being fantastic. She didn't deserve the crap she got.

-they benched Leia and effectively made her rather uninfluential beyond the first scene (which was a good scene, by the way, I liked what little she did in the film)

Ultimately, the  whole film     reeked of a "men are  fo  o  ls and  women are superior  even when they  f  a  il  ". Why does  Poe get no credit for putting his entire reputation  and rank in the Resistance at risk so he could try and save them all? Why does Holdo get no crap what so ever for failing to  communicate a simple plan to a worried crew? Why is it that Poe is an unthinking hothead but Rey is a paragon of   confidence? Why does Finn not get to decide his own fate?

All of the above is just an opinion, but I really wish they had just focused on telling a good story rather than pushing an agenda. No film ever gets remembered fondly that exists purely to push an agenda.   

End rant.

 

If you think in movies women can only be strong and men can never be fallible unless it's to push an agenda, there's something wrong with your worldview.

14 minutes ago, StriderZessei said:

EDIT: Case in   point, thanks to evo454: "I really wish they had just focused on telling a good story rather than pushing an agenda. No film ever gets remembered fondly that  exists purely to push an  agenda." 

Exactly the kind of barely-concealed bigotry that must be opposed.

15 minutes ago, StriderZessei said:

By all counts, Luke was too...

What do you mean, all guys can hop right into an interstellar F-16 and successfully fly daring missions against overwhelming odds!

50 minutes ago, Stan Fresh said:

I was talking about Clone Wars, not movie makers. It's not coming.back because fans expected it to, it's coming back because the season was already half finished and people are interested in seeing more Clone Wars.

I know...no big Shistavanen pecs for me... ?

11 minutes ago, StriderZessei said:

Which is possibly a good thing in today's day and age. Remember the media frenzy when Beauty and the Beast had a supposedly gay character?

If we think the backlash is strong now, how boy.

And to be clear, I'm not homophobic, but it's already hard enough to deal with people accusing Disney of turning SW into a 'liberal sjw soapbox.'

EDIT: Case in point, thanks to evo454: "I really wish they had just focused on telling a good story rather than pushing an agenda. No film ever gets remembered fondly that exists purely to push an agenda."

So you'd be more comfortable with people saying that Disney is catering to the retrograde and deplorable (gotta give it to Hilldawg, it's a fun word!) prejudices of the alt right, and therefore with the consequent product of such pandering. Got it.

And everything has an agenda. The status quo itself is an agenda. I guess Birth of a Nation and Gone with the Wind aren't critically important movies that push agendas, then?

11 minutes ago, evo454 said:

-Rey is still biggest Mary Sue in modern media (in my opinion)

All of the above is just an opinion, but I really wish they had just focused on telling a good story rather than pushing an agenda. No film ever gets remembered fondly that exists purely to push an agenda.

I am picking out two points I feel strong enough on to respond to... Otherwise, you note that these are your opinions and that's totally cool.

Regarding Rey and "Mary Sue" allegations: First, Harry Potter hits more check boxes than Rey by parsecs. I think that as a culture we are simply accustomed to seeing hyper-competent men so when a woman assumes the role it feels discordant. Even the rest of your post has a theme of women "taking" things from men whereas if the roles were reversed few would even have noticed because it as been the way of things for so dang long. This is not an accusation of sexism against you personally, but rather a comment on the culture we are currently in.

Regarding agendas, it is worth remembering that in its day there were many that saw the original "Star Wars" films and the prequels as possessing agendas (a subject worth debating, at the very least). In the case of the originals, it has become hard to see now because "Star Wars" succeeded in its aims, I think, and we have grown as a culture. And still can.

48 minutes ago, Mindless Philosopher said:

So you'd be more comfortable with people saying that Disney  is catering to the retrograde and deplorable (gotta give it to  Hilldawg, it's a fun word!) prejudices of the alt right, and therefore  with  the consequent product of such pandering. Got it.

Kindly refrain from putting words in my mouth, thank you.

I'm opposed to romance in Star Wars films in general, simply for its spotty track record. Of the two romantic developments, one was simply to drive the plot and introduce more characters (in the case of Padme and Anakin) and the other, while providing genuine character development, is so ridden with cliches and male power fantasy it's tougher for me to get behind.

I guess my point is I don't trust any Hollywood writer today to write any kind of relationship into the new trilogy without it feeling like pandering to one side or the other. And I don't want pandering or agenda pushing in every movie, least of all Star Wars, just a good story and awesome action, which I feel like we've (mostly) gotten so far.

59 minutes ago, ghatt said:

Completely different contexts. Luke force choked two of Jabbas guards while he was attempting to intimidate a Hutt crime lord into releasing Han and the others.

The guards did not provoke him. They barred his path as he attempted to enter their employer’s dwelling uninvited. He could have - as he did with Bib Fortuna - mind tricked them. But, the Luke you grew up with chose to assault them.

2 hours ago, ghatt said:

Luke almost gave into the Dark Side while in a life or death duel with Darth Freaking Vader. Hovering over your sleeping nephew with a lit lightsaber isn’t even remotely the same thing.

The Luke you grew up with had (literally) disarmed Darth Freaking Vader, yet continued to hammer at him mercilessly. He surrendered to his darker impulses for more than a moment, finally regaining his composure. He never expressed any regret for his actions.

The Luke you grew up with sensed nothing but darkness in his sleeping nephew, momentarily considered surrendering to his darker impulses again, then thought better of it. He expressed shame and regret over that momentary lapse, and considered it a failure of his own moral character.

Nothing out of context in any of these analyses of what we’ve been shown on screen about the Luke you grew up with.

And the Luke you grew up with? He’s also the Luke I grew up with. I see nothing inconsistent with his portrayal 30 years on in TLJ. Now...here’s the thing: it can be consistent with his established characterization and still not appeal to you. You didn’t care for it. That’s more than fair. That doesn’t mean it’s inconsistent and it doesn’t mean that, it consistent, you’re required to enjoy it.

I can relate, too. I’m a lifelong comics fan. My all-time favorite comic is The New Teen Titans. My all-time favorite comics character is D!ck Grayson (take that, overly-cautious profanity filter!), be it as the original Robin, Nightwing, or Batman’s successor. There’s a live-action Titans series that just debuted on DC’s new streaming service. And I have sub-zero interest in it, based on the trailer. I don’t care for the TV-MA approach. But in particular, I don’t care for how they’re positioning the good Mr. Grayson. One of the big storylines in NTT was the rift that developed between him and Batman, leading to abandoning the Robin identity (because, as he said, Robin would always be the back half of “Batman and...”) and becoming Nightwing. But, they’ve opted to dial it up to 11, with Robin killing street thugs (according to one review, he even uses garden shears to...um...remove his civilian namesake from one), and moving on to the big “money moment” of the trailer where he declares, “F**k Batman.” So, while (at least some of) the behavior is consistent with that storyline, I don’t like how they seem to be going about it.

So...I get it. I’m not trying to say that, because Luke’s behavior is consistent with what’s come before, you’re required to like it. Simply that, just because you don’t like it, that doesn’t make it inconsistent.

You know this thread has gone off the deep end when I am in complete agreement with just about about every word @Tramp Graphics posts. Black is up and white is down.

Oh well. You tell'em Trampy!

30 minutes ago, Stan Fresh said:

What do you mean, all guys can hop right into an interstellar F-16 and successfully fly daring missions against overwhelming odds!

With the right music, of course.

3 minutes ago, penpenpen said:

With the right music,   of   cour  se.

2 hours ago, Stan Fresh said:

No, they're catering to a demand, not an expectation. That's a huge difference.

No, those are virtually the same thing.

2 hours ago, Cavgunner said:

Well, that seems entirely incorrect. Whole entertainment franchises have been built around the notion of doing so, including this one. Clone Wars is coming back for another season because they're catering to fan expectations. And to be honest, I don't really care what Rian said he was or wasn't going to do because, as I hope I have made abundantly clear, I don't agree with his vision in the first place. That's not head canon, that is my opinion. So again, JJ should have helmed this movie. It would have been a lot different, treated the characters and movie legacy with more respect and I imagine it would have been a lot more palatable. I'm sure you would have hated it.

Also, his name is spelled Rian. Not Ryan.

It’s not a matter of whether you “agree” with his vision or not. Your, or anyone’s, preconceived notions of what “should” have happened are irrelevant. They didn’t happen nor was there any chance of it happening, even if JJ had directed TLJ. Would JJ’s version been different? Sure. Would it have been exactly as you wanted it? Probably not.

As for the Clone Wars returning; Faloni himself has always wanted to complete this story, given that its cancellation cut it off before he could. So, it wasn’t so much a matter of placating the fans. Rather, it’s giving Faloni the chance to finish what he started in the way he wanted, which simply happens to mesh with fan desires as well. But, once again, none of us knows what’s going to actually happen in this final season, nor how it’s gonna play out.

12 minutes ago, Tramp Graphics said:

It’s not a matter of whether you “agree” with his vision or not. Your, or anyone’s, preconceived notions of what “should” have happened are irrelevant.

That is an utterly wrong-headed assumption. Of course my position matters. If it doesn't, then yours doesn't either. And if that's true, then all Star Wars fans everywhere should just refrain from any further discussion from now until forever because, from what you seem to be suggesting, our opinions simply don't matter, and we should happily accept whatever slop we receive going forward without comment.

Many of the comments in this thread seem to suggest that it would have been impossible to craft a film that both navigated a fresh course for Star Wars while *also* honoring the legacy of what had come before. Some even seem to be suggesting that it would have been pointless to even try, and that those of us who feel that Rian's vision was rather contemptuous are just looking back on our childhoods with rose-colored glasses. Frankly, it's baffling. Of *course* I wanted to see Luke go out like a boss (or even survive until the end and find a life in peace) instead of making snarky comments to his nephew. Jesus.

I don't think JJ would have done a perfect job on that account but unlike Rian, I think he would have at least tried . You guys have made it clear that Rian didn't care about that and I wholeheartedly agree.

15 minutes ago, Cavgunner said:

That is an utterly    wrong-headed assumption. Of course my position matters. If it doesn't, then yours doesn't either.

He said "preconceived notion", not "position".

50 minutes ago, Cavgunner said:

No, those are virtually the same thing.

Now I know what an aneurysm feels like.

There’s a difference between “honoring” what came before and “catering to the whims of the fandom”. The current movies do honor what came before. What they don’t do, and what they shouldn’t do, is cater to the whims and “expectations” of the fandom. This is because no two fans want the same things. What may please some fans will be hated by other fans. There is no escaping this harsh truth. You can never satisfy everyone. As such, don’t. Simply tell the best story you can.

4 minutes ago, Stan Fresh said:

He said "preconceived notion", not "position".

Thank you. @Stan Fresh is correct there. It’s not your “opinion” that’s irrelevant, rather what preconceived notions you had going into the movie which are irrelevant, as are whatever preconceived notions I had going in. That is why it is always important to go into a movie with an open mind and no preconceived notions of what to expect story wise.

Stan, my days of feeling that you enjoy arguing simply for the sake of arguing are definitely coming to a middle.

4 minutes ago, Tramp Graphics said:

There’s a difference between “honoring” what came before and “catering to the whims of the fandom”. The current movies do honor what came before. What they don’t do, and what they shouldn’t do, is cater to the whims and “expectations” of the fandom. This is because no two fans want the same things. What may please some fans will be hated by other fans. There is no escaping this harsh truth. You can never satisfy everyone. As such, don’t. Simply tell the best story you can.

Thank you. @Stan Fresh is correct there. It’s not your “opinion” that’s irrelevant, rather what preconceived notions you had going into the movie which are irrelevant, as are whatever preconceived notions I had going in. That is why it is always important to go into a movie with an open mind and no preconceived notions of what to expect story wise.

You say TLJ honors what came before. I disagree.

You say TLJ wasn't catering to the fans. Well, yes. That is plainly evident.

Furthermore my position is my opinion, so your clarification is irrelevant. You went into TLJ and were probably blown away. I left feeling profoundly disappointed.

We will never agree.

2 minutes ago, Cavgunner said:

You say TLJ honors what came before. I disagree.

You say TLJ wasn't catering to the fans. Well, yes. That is plainly evident.

Furthermore my position is my opinion, so your clarification is irrelevant. You went into TLJ and were probably blown away. I left feeling profoundly disappointed.

We will never agree.

Nor are you required to agree.

But, in order to engage in genuine, productive discussion (which, I should note, does not require a result of any party involved altering their conclusions), it’s important to have a meeting of the minds regarding the parameters of that discussion. It’s the only way to truly understand the various perspectives involved.

Well Ny, what you say is laudable. Unfortunately, that is not what is occurring here.

To put it another way, I understand and accept that people liked TLJ.

And yet, the idea that someone such as myself wouldn't like TLJ has been derided and treated with dismissive arrogance, up to and including attacks on intelligence and character. I say this not to request sympathy (frankly I could care less), but merely to illustrate how what you are suggesting is quite impossible.

42 minutes ago, Cavgunner said:

Stan, my days of feeling that you enjoy arguing simply for the sake of arguing are definitely coming to a middle.

Okay.

2 minutes ago, Cavgunner said:

Well Ny, what you say is laudable. Unfortunately, that is not what is occurring here.

To put it another way, I understand and accept that people liked TLJ.

And yet, the idea that someone such as myself wouldn't like TLJ has been derided and treated with dismissive arrogance, up to and including attacks on intelligence and character. I say this not to request sympathy (frankly I could care less), but merely to illustrate how what you are suggesting is quite impossible.

Nobody is deriding you for not liking the movie. All we’re doing is pointing out the flaws in your reasoning which may have caused you to do so. You went into the movie with a number of specific preconceived expectations, expectations which were never going to be fulfilled no Matt who directed the movie.

Here’s the crux of the issue. The sequel trilogy is not about the Heroes of the OT. It’s about new heroes. In order for these new heroes to be able to take center stage, the old heroes have to take a back seat. How do you do that? How do you keep Luke Skywalker, potentially the most powerful Jedi in history, from dominating the movie? That is what both JJ and Johnson faced. JJ started by having Luke go into hiding after the destruction of his academy. The question then becomes why and how did this happen? How did Luke fail? Rian Johnson answered these questions in the most logical way. Luke screwed up. Fans expect Luke to be some “infallible super Jedi”. That can’t happen if you want to tell a good story and, more importantly, have anew generation of characters take center stage. Your “expectations” run counter to what was needed to tell a good story. No, it may not be what you wanted, or expected, nor was it what I thought I wanted or would have expected. However, it was what the story needed .

1 hour ago, Cavgunner said:

Stan, my days of feeling that you enjoy arguing simply for the sake of arguing are definitely coming to a middle.

Firefly reference. Respect.

19 minutes ago, Cavgunner said:

(frankly  I could  care les  s  ),       

I hate to be that guy, but it's couldn't.

19 minutes ago, Cavgunner said:

the  idea that  someone such as myself  wouldn't like TLJ has been derided and treated with dismissive  arrogance, up to and including attacks on intelligence and character .

Perhaps. But much of that is due to the arguments made by many of TLJ's detractors, namely that the movie is just pushing an agenda, which is laughable and frankly contemptible. Unfortunately, many rational people who disliked it for other reasons get lumped in with the loonies.

5 minutes ago, StriderZessei said:

I hate to be that guy, but it's couldn't.

Never stop being that guy!

Tramp, I appreciate the response. With respect, I'm not entirely comfortable being told what I expected when I walked into that theater. If you could refrain from that, that would be appreciated. And frankly, I don't exactly remember anyway. I do remember how strongly I felt when I left, which is why we are conversing.

I think your assessment is exactly what Rian and his team tried to do. As I have stated previously, I actually appreciate that Disney tried to take things in a fresh direction. But as I've stated, the details of the actual execution simply didn't work for me, and I've stated the numerous reasons why. So again, we disagree. Not the end of the world.