2 hours ago, ghatt said:

Ah, well youtube is full of nutter butters. I stear clear of that kind of stuff in general.

Well, YouTube videos are driven primarily by the need for clicks, and in today's world the best way to get views is to be as loud and outrageous as possible. Even in social media (especially FaceBook) you'll see articles with sensationalist headlines for a subject that's really rather bland, again all in the name of getting hits on their web pages.

11 minutes ago, LithiumBlossom said:

The part I'm curious about all this is the recent assumption that the prequels are a beloved part of the franchise that were recieved positively in their time. Seems like a lot of people, particularly younger people, hold this opinion. Phantom Menance came out twenty years ago, it's not as if the fanbase has been divided before.

I think that the hate the prequels get is a bit revisionist. Sure they could’ve been done better. George Lucas should have brought a screenwriter onboard to help his dialogue, but I remember episode one being very well received at release. All people could talk about was how awesome Maul was. It wasn’t until a bit later people started hating on it.

I know people who take every opportunity they can to trash the prequels who at the time were blown away by them. I know, because I saw them with them, lol.

Reminds me of the summer between 2nd and 3rd grade where everyone but me decided power rangers were lame. Mind you, before the summer every kid at school was obsessed with them. And, I just dated myself, all my 32 years.

8 minutes ago, Donovan Morningfire said:

Well, YouTube videos are driven primarily by the need for clicks, and in today's world the best way to get views is to be as loud and outrageous as possible. Even in social media (especially FaceBook) you'll see articles with sensationalist headlines for a subject that's really rather bland, again all in the name of getting hits on their web pages.

Which is a crazy business model there more you think about it. I can forsee the bubble popping in future unless there's a way to keep it sustainable at a good quality.

It seems most of the best quality people I follow tend to make their money from Patreon and holding down other jobs off the back of their channels. A lot of the more sensationalist people who trend don't seem to actually be as good at their topic, just selling it. Like I saw a freerunner/urban explorer channel yesterday where he kept injuring himself and getting arrested far more than anyone I know who does that yet had millions of views each.

10 minutes ago, ghatt said:

I think that the hate the prequels get is a bit revisionist. Sure they could’ve been done better. George Lucas should have brought a screenwriter onboard to help his dialogue, but I remember episode one being very well received at release. All people could talk about was how awesome Maul was. It wasn’t until a bit later people started hating on it.

I know people who take every opportunity they can to trash the prequels who at the time were blown away by them. I know, because I saw them with them, lol.

Reminds me of the summer between 2nd and 3rd grade where everyone but me decided power rangers were lame. Mind you, before the summer every kid at school was obsessed with them. And, I just dated myself, all my 32 years.

Maybe it depends on your age group. I was in that akward grounds of my early teens when it came out. I remember adults and critics hating it at the time while children (who it was made for) enjoyed it more.

You are right though that some aspects of it became culturally iconic and held interest by themselves to the average movie-going audience. Darth Maul being the biggest stand out.

Overall I hold a nuanced view of the prequels. They gave us some good things and had interesting concepts but held deep flaws in their execution. Hopefully it seems Bob Iger has learned from this and has woken up to the dangers of having too driven a release schedule that could sacrifice quality for quantity.

Among the more vocal and forceful opponents of TLJ, there are often complaints that Johnson intentionally thumbed his nose at fan expectations and theories that spun out of TFA.

Meanwhile, it’s on record that the script was finished before TFA was even released. It would be rather problematic for Johnson to intentionally subvert ideas that didn’t exist yet.

29 minutes ago, LithiumBlossom said:

Maybe it depends on your age group. I was in that akward grounds of my early teens when it came out. I remember adults and critics hating it at the time while children (who it was made for) enjoyed it more.

You are right though that some aspects of it became culturally iconic and held interest by themselves to the average movie-going audience. Darth Maul being the biggest stand out.

Overall I hold a nuanced view of the prequels. They gave us some good things and had interesting concepts but held deep flaws in their execution. Hopefully it seems Bob Iger has learned from this and has woken up to the dangers of having too driven a release schedule that could sacrifice quality for quantity.

My opinion on the prequels is that they enriched the Star Wars universe so much and that good parts of them outweighed the cringey parts, so overall I appreciate them a lot.

Most of my complaints come down to poorly written dialogue, some miscasting, but mostly George Lucas not demanding enough out of his actors. It seems that as long as an actor could remember his/her lines (looking at you Natalie Portman) Lucas didn’t give a crap about their delivery.

Overall, George Lucas is a great storyteller and an even better director when it comes to action and FX sequences. He’s not a great screenwriter and he’s pretty bad at directing actors. Had he collaborated with others like he did with the original trilogy, the prequels could’ve surpassed them. But, alas, he did not.

Having said that, my Star Wars rankings are as follows:

1. ESB

2. ROTJ

3. ANH

4. ROTS

5. AoTC (the obi wan stuff is awesome)

6. PM

7. TFA

8. Rogue One/Solo

Unranked. TLJ

Only film I’m halfway excited about is the rumored Obi Wan flick starring Ewan McGregor, but who knows if that’ll happen now.

29 minutes ago, Nytwyng said:

Among the more vocal and forceful opponents of TLJ, there are often complaints that Johnson intentionally thumbed his nose at fan expectations and theories that spun out of TFA.

Meanwhile, it’s on record that the script was finished before TFA was even released. It would be rather problematic for Johnson to intentionally subvert ideas that didn’t exist yet.

He had to know that completely abandoning all the stuff JJ had set up was going to dissapoint a lot of people. I’m not even going to mention what he did to Luke’s character. These aren’t things that he couldn’t have foreseen being somewhat controversial.

He is, after all, a relatively smart, if arrogant fellow.

9 minutes ago, ghatt said:

He had to know that completely abandoning all the stuff JJ had set up was going to dissapoint a lot of people.

What, exactly, did he abandon that Abrams set up?

10 minutes ago, ghatt said:

I’m not even going to mention what he did to Luke’s character.

Probably a wise choice. Since what he did to Luke’s character was build upon his established actions and behavior from the original films. (Worth noting, as well...Abrams is the one who established Luke removing himself from the galactic stage, hidden away in apparent isolation. So, more “stuff Abrams had set up” that was, in fact, not abandoned by Johnson.)

2 minutes ago, Nytwyng said:

What, exactly, did he abandon that Abrams set up?

Probably a wise choice. Since what he did to Luke’s character was build upon his established actions and behavior from the original films. (Worth noting, as well...Abrams is the one who established Luke removing himself from the galactic stage, hidden away in apparent isolation. So, more “stuff Abrams had set up” that was, in fact, not abandoned by Johnson.)

I disagree good sir. The Luke I grew up with wouldn’t have considered murdering someone in cold blood. Especially not to the point of standing over their sleeping form with an ignited lightsaber in hand. That’s a perversion of his character, not growth.

15 minutes ago, ghatt said:

I disagree good sir. The Luke I grew up with wouldn’t have considered murdering someone in cold blood. Especially not to the point of standing over their sleeping form with an ignited lightsaber in hand. That’s a perversion of his character, not growth.

The Luke you grew up with casually Force choked two guards blocking his path.

The Luke you grew up with, after paying a lot of lip service to still seeing good in Vader, had the right buttons pushed by Vader and hammered away at him relentlessly with a lightsaber, even after rendering him helpless, until he reined himself in.

So, yes, the Luke you grew up with saw darkness that he believed to be beyond redemption and considered killing Ben...until he once again reined himself in.

Please indicate the inconsistency in behavior.

8 minutes ago, Nytwyng said:

The Luke you grew up with casually Force choked two guards blocking his path.

The Luke you grew up with, after paying a lot of lip service to still seeing good in Vader, had the right buttons pushed by Vader and hammered away at him relentlessly with a lightsaber, even after rendering him helpless, until he reined himself in.

So, yes, the Luke you grew up with saw darkness that he believed to be beyond redemption and considered killing Ben...until he once again reined himself in.

Please indicate the inconsistency in behavior.

Completely different contexts. Luke force choked two of Jabbas guards while he was attempting to intimidate a Hutt crime lord into releasing Han and the others. Luke almost gave into the Dark Side while in a life or death duel with Darth Freaking Vader. Hovering over your sleeping nephew with a lit lightsaber isn’t even remotely the same thing.

Taking scenes completely out of context is not proof of anything but your desire to prove you’re right. This is not something you’re ever going to be able to convince me of btw.

Re: Phantom Menace

The hate was so great and wide-ranging, TV shows in other countries made fun of how bad the movie was.

13 hours ago, Stan Fresh said:

Any interest in GMing/playing something else with the Genesys rules?

I've been working on stuff for a (kind of maybe, maybe not happening) game of Dungeon World while checking in on the thread.

As for the movie: I agree with the sagging middle bit. At least it wasn't the classic lackluster third act of so many blockbuster movies! But yeah, Canto Bight, while thematically interesting, did drag somewhat in the execution.

Phasma seems like such a deliberate attempt to recreate the Boba Fett mystique that it makes me cringe. That said, she worked for my young nephew. He instantly latched onto her strong visual design, just like with Vader and Kylo Ren. He likes bad people in awesome masks, I guess.

I wonder how many people bring kids when they watch these movies? Seeing kids I love lose their mind at Thor stormbreaking an army or Holdo express-laning into the triangle of evil is one of my great joys in life.

I GMed once before and found it a bit bewildering. Genesys has been something that has interested me as a more general ruleset, just the group I am with mainly plays in the star wars setting, so star wars is, large and large, is what I get. At the moment I am very invested because my character has incredibly strong links in the world, becoming something close to a Jacen Borne of the star wars setting in that he was probably one of the alliance's greatest operatives, but people within and without all want him dead, all because of his conditioned tendencies to use people and discard them as his handler had done. Thus navigating an environment with such strong character driven politics, of friendships and enemies in a story that is a series of damaged people looking to make the best of a corrupt galaxy, I wouldn't give that up for anything. Well, at least until Tobin Stryder dies then I will find someone else to live as.

That being said, had a craving for some oldie style fantasy setting, with swords, magic and just generally a bit more rural. I haven't a huge interest in wandering dungeons just because, but I do find it fascinating to explore civilisations, not all civil toward me, to escort an merchant friend for a fee to be challenged with sword. To me it's having connections and living in a breathing world that makes roleplaying for me; that even a lone wolf has connections in the world, through old smuggler friends, old rivals that are either of a progressive nature or foes that hate me and likewise. To me the setting just adds flavour; to me there is little difference between a Ronin of the sith, taught by a disgraced master who had been shunned by his clan and want's revenge, and a force emergent who encountered a lightsabre that corrupted him mentally to be a perfect weapon before discarding him abruptly when a better vessel came along, those are effectively the same to me just the environment is different. What matters to me much more is the stories told along the road and, perhaps more importantly, feeling like I made an impact in the universe.

Canto Bite kinda felt like "well the big leaguers have something to do. Let's send Finn on a child's errand." Again, I felt there was just too many different things going on in the middle of the movie, 2 well developed arcs are better then 3 developed in a minimalistic manner. Now don't get me wrong, I didn't strongly dislike it, I just had aspects of the movie I preferred and some parts that I felt could be tighter ran. Again, not a huge star wars fan so it was really just a light show without much emotional impact on me.

Phasma meanwhile is a complete tool, which is a shame, her actress had such incredible presence! I just felt it would have been better served had she not been randomly thrown onto the scene like an bit of an afterthought. Though I can see why she would be an effective icon; she just looks so distinctive and chrome! XD

On a side note; I do agree that the story surrounding Kylo Ren is still too light; there's really no context that lead to the scene of Luke standing over Kylo Ren with a lightsabre. Not much context, only that Snoke had apparently had gotten to Kylo before he was sent Luke, which indicates that somewhere along the like Snoke was a major political player like Palpatine once was, perhaps with an existing history with Luke given his scarred body. Surethere is probably enough context there; but again I feel it comes back to the three arcs problem; it was really starting to lose sight of the original story it actually needed to tell in order to explore all these tangents. That being said; being incredibly vague to the point of being unhelpful is a star wars trope that dates back to the OT, so at least that is being kept consistent.

One thing that is clear is that Han and Leia were pretty terrible parents in order to further their respective careers. And that makes things fun!

32 minutes ago, LordBritish said:

One thing that is clear is that Han and Leia were pretty terrible parents in     order to further their respective careers. And that makes things fun!


That's something I enjoy, too. Not going with the automatic assumption that the heroes would be perfect parents. It fits the Star Wars themes that even for the best people parenting can be a challenge.

On another note, I think you should check out Dungeon World, if you haven't already. It's old-school DnD fantasy but with a system that encourages cinematic storytelling and character-driven play and strong player involvement in the development of the setting.

It also comes with rules for the GM to follow that result in interesting play. That provides a lot of structure to help new GMs in creating the campaign from player input.

And there are a ton of YouTube videos and podcasts of people playing the game, including one of the creators, so it's easy to see how it can be run.

6 hours ago, Cavgunner said:

Some people. And with respect, your explanation seems somewhat contradictory.

I think we can all appreciate, in principle, any effort to provide a new, creative flair to a forty-year-old franchise. Unfortunately, in my opinion that does not seem to be what Rian did. There is a huge difference between introducing a creative twist and intentionally taking a dump on fan expectations. Some fans. Not all. But the thing is, I for one walked into this sandwich shop wanting a sandwich. And so a sandwich is what I expected to receive. Maybe not the exact same sandwich, mind you, but a sandwich of some kind nonetheless. I have ordered a sandwich on every prior occasion that I have entered this store, and for the most part, with perhaps one exception, I was satisfied with what I got.

Rian Johnson gave me a cake. Nothing wrong with cake. But it's not what I wanted or requested, not on this visit or any of my prior visits. Not only did I receive cake, judging from the open hostility of some in this thread, I'm expected to like the cake, and I'm wrong if I don't. Well I'm sorry. I keep seeing that word "nuanced" but the actual actions of the important characters in TLJ don't make sense . Poe and Finn in particular literally lose 50 IQ points in between movies. Meanwhile the appearances of nearly all the minor characters amount to irrelevance. That's not storytelling. Sorry, it's not.

So yes, I think you are absolutely correct that Rian had zero concern in regard to fan expectations. All fans? Again, no. But I think it was clearly a significant number. So what you call "unexpected" and "nuanced" I call contemptuous. I deeply regret that JJ Abrams did not direct the last Last Jedi. JJ is far from a perfect director* * and TFA wasn't perfect either, but it was certainly serviceable. Most of all TFA assured me that JJ understood what Star Wars was . Rian? Rian didn't care. He just made a movie about stupid people making stupid decisions in space, and that nothing that happened before mattered or was important, to the point that even the sacrifice and redemption of Anakin Skywalker is now irrelevant. I think it's a safe bet to assume that JJ would certainly not have gone in that direction. So what's going to happen now is that JJ is going to try and perform damage control in Episode 9 to undo what Rian has inflicted on the original story treatment. This may be a nearly impossible task, but at least JJ will try.

**I would have much preferred Spielberg at the helm of a Star Wars movie, maybe he would have directed one as a favor to Lucas 15-20 years ago but he'll never do it now.

You see, that there is the crux of the problem. It is not the job of any director or story teller to cater to fan “expectations” . His or her job is to create as original a story as he or she can within the confines of the setting. Long before TLJ came out, Ryan Johnson made it perfectly clear that we should not “expect” any of our fan theories to show up in the movie, and that he would not cater to our “expectations”. He was very explicit about this. So, if you went in expecting certain things to happen in the movie, or the characters to be portrayed a certain way, based upon your personal “head canon”, and came away dissatisfied because it didn’t happen, that’s your fault. Because, he warned everyone to forget every fan theory people came up with and go into the movie with no preconceived expectations.

I'm going to have to apologize in advance for coming off like a huge literary snob, but that is kind of my job.

I think the constant search for background info and origin stories on the part of fans (and, these days, creators) of the SW franchise runs into trouble when confronted with the type of story the OT is trying to tell: myth on a grand scale, a la Campbell. These issues arise from what looks to me like a profound misunderstanding of this kind of story/text and how it works. You can tell a great story just with character archetypes, just not the kind of story that people who read a bunch of hard science fiction and watch a lot of prestige television are used to.

Re: the childish, 'intellectual' (the scare quotes don't deserve to be removed) gatekeeping that passes for fandom these days, yeah, it sucks. No one is being stolen from because I might finally get to see two dudes kiss or hold hands in a movie, especially not a forty-five year old who saw every OT movie in theaters and cannot engage with the films or franchise as a whole in any meaningful way beyond whether or not the other entries are able to make him/her feel exactly the same way they did back then. The backlash to TLJ is a huge reason I have been on the downlow about my SW love for the past year.

39 minutes ago, Tramp Graphics said:

You see, that there is the crux of the problem. It is not the job of any director or story teller to cater to fan “expectations” .

Well, that seems entirely incorrect. Whole entertainment franchises have been built around the notion of doing so, including this one. Clone Wars is coming back for another season because they're catering to fan expectations. And to be honest, I don't really care what Rian said he was or wasn't going to do because, as I hope I have made abundantly clear, I don't agree with his vision in the first place. That's not head canon, that is my opinion. So again, JJ should have helmed this movie. It would have been a lot different, treated the characters and movie legacy with more respect and I imagine it would have been a lot more palatable. I'm sure you would have hated it.

Also, his name is spelled Rian. Not Ryan.

7 hours ago, Mindless Philosopher said:

The backlash to TLJ is a huge reason I have been on the downlow about my SW love for the past year.

I agree with your post but want to take a moment... not to disagree with you, but rather present another view... I have chosen to turn UP the volume on my SW love in response to TLJ hate so that, at least in my tiny spheres of influence, people I see as stunted, backwards and toxic (as opposed to level-headed critics able to engage reasonably) aren't the last or (worse) only word on the subject.

If SW has taught me little else, its that when a giant orbital death machine starts pulling up to your world, you face it.

I am one of the middle-aged fans who has been putting way too much thought into SW but has no intention of stopping now. I also have kids that hear and sometimes even listen to what I say. They know I love SW and I need my nieces to know that SW isn't a boy's club and I need my son and nephews to know that they should stand beside all types people for what's right. That the balance for fans is less about light and dark but finding your best balance of thoughts and actions.
Are the new SW saga films "great" films? I would argue that they are not. Cinematic-wise they are passable-to-fine, in my opinion. However, they are firmly associating the SW brand with values that I think are not only important but very much in line with the values I took away from "Star Wars" back in the '70s. It is with that in mind that I enthusiastically support them and feel my fandom renewed in these modern times.
For me, SW is like a fable or parable: You can rightfully debate the quality of the telling, but the message at the core is the most important part and if they get that even close to right everything else is secondary (not inconsequential, just of lower importance).
Now this is not to say that everyone should do this. Keeping your head down in all the noise and feces-flinging has value and I support that. I just felt compelled to share why I have taken a different path.

28 minutes ago, Cavgunner said:

Well, that seems entirely incorrect  . Whole entertainment franchises have been bui  lt around the notion of doing so, including this on  e. Clone Wars is coming back for another seas  o  n because they're catering to fan expectations.  

No, they're catering to a demand, not an expectation. That's a huge difference.

33 minutes ago, Mindless Philosopher said:

No  one is being stolen from because I might finally get to see two dudes kiss or hold hands in a mo  vie,

Sadly this seems unlikely to happen. Those Chinese ticket sales are too valuable to Disney to risk a blockbuster being banned there because it shows dudes kissing. I'm pretty sure we won't see any recognition of the reality of homosexuality outside some tie-in fiction.

1 hour ago, Tramp Graphics said:

It is not the job of any director or story teller to cater to fan “expectations” .

44 minutes ago, Cavgunner said:

Well, that seems entirely incorrect. Whole entertainment franchises have been built around the notion of doing so, including this one.

12 minutes ago, Stan Fresh said:

No, they're catering to a demand, not an expectation. That's a huge difference.

I'll take it one step more and suggest that a filmmaker is hired to do a job . Sometimes that job is to be original, sometimes to meet expectations, sometimes any number of other things, sometimes a combination of things.. but always to make money.
I would say that there is more than enough evidence to suggest that the wildly different things that Abrams and Johnson produced were in line with the jobs they were given at the time.

I was talking about Clone Wars, not movie makers. It's not coming.back because fans expected it to, it's coming back because the season was already half finished and people are interested in seeing more Clone Wars.

6 minutes ago, Stan Fresh said:

I was talking about Clone Wars, not movie makers. It's not coming.back because fans expected it to, it's coming back because the season was already half finished and people are interested in seeing more Clone Wars.

A fair distinction, to be sure, but I think that the overall philosophy still applies across the brand, in general.

I'm here to pitch my two cents.

I personally liked TLJ, however, I am the kind of person who will automatically think highly of something Star Wars simply because it is Star Wars. It's my childhood and the basis for a lot of friendships and the inspiration for what I'm currently studying in college, so Star Wars is and will always be a major influence on my life. However, I feel like I was let down by TLJ not because simply because of the politics involved or the outside controversy, but because it felt like they sacrificed the story in multiple places because they wanted to make a message.

-Luke didn't develop at all from RotJ despite all the years that had passed and the adventures there-in

-Rey is still biggest Mary Sue in modern media (in my opinion)

-Poe doesn't really get an arc, he just get's made the fool because Holdo is a crap leader

-Holdo gets praise despite being a crap leader

-Finn has a HUGE arc stolen from him by Rose at the very end

-Rose... was present... wasn't a huge fan of her, but other than the final act I really didn't have anything against her. Plus Tran did a good job acting the role despite the role itself not being fantastic. She didn't deserve the crap she got.

-they benched Leia and effectively made her rather uninfluential beyond the first scene (which was a good scene, by the way, I liked what little she did in the film)

Ultimately, the whole film reeked of a "men are fools and women are superior even when they fail". Why does Poe get no credit for putting his entire reputation and rank in the Resistance at risk so he could try and save them all? Why does Holdo get no crap what so ever for failing to communicate a simple plan to a worried crew? Why is it that Poe is an unthinking hothead but Rey is a paragon of confidence? Why does Finn not get to decide his own fate?

All of the above is just an opinion, but I really wish they had just focused on telling a good story rather than pushing an agenda. No film ever gets remembered fondly that exists purely to push an agenda.

End rant.

52 minutes ago, Stan Fresh said:

Sadly this seems unlikely to happen. Those Chinese ticket sales are too valuable to Disney to risk a blockbuster being banned there because it shows dudes kissing. I'm pretty sure we won't see any recognition of the reality of homosexuality outside some tie-in fiction.

Which is possibly a good thing in today's day and age. Remember the media frenzy when Beauty and the Beast had a supposedly gay character?

If we think the backlash is strong now, how boy.

And to be clear, I'm not homophobic, but it's already hard enough to deal with people accusing Disney of turning SW into a 'liberal sjw soapbox.'

EDIT: Case in point, thanks to evo454: "I really wish they had just focused on telling a good story rather than pushing an agenda. No film ever gets remembered fondly that exists purely to push an agenda."