24 minutes ago, 2P51 said:

Mostly I wonder why the Russian troll-bot army apparently liked TFA and R1 but not TLJ and Solo?......

Because it was all part of the plot to get Chuck Wendig fired? ?

Just now, HappyDaze said:

Because it was all part of the plot to get Chuck Wendig fired? ?

Crafty Russkies...

2 minutes ago, 2P51 said:

No, but decisions about what comes next were deferred according to the Eiger interview. Decisions which from the article that are just now being made.

So: sequels make less money (but that doesn't count here), production hasn't stopped (but that doesn't count here), audiences like the movie (but that doesn't count here here). It's an interesting pattern with you.

1 minute ago, Stan Fresh said:

So: sequels make less money (but that doesn't count here), production hasn't stopped (but that doesn't count here), audiences like the movie (but that doesn't count here here). It's an interesting pattern with you.

If by pattern you mean backing up opinions with facts, quotes and details, yes.

2 minutes ago, 2P51 said:

If by pattern you mean backing up opinions with facts, quotes and details, yes.

No, I mean the pattern of pretending that the facts, quotes, and details supplied by other people don't exist once they have been used to tear down your arguments.

31 minutes ago, 2P51 said:

My only narrative is if Disney thought the majority of fans were actually happy why are they slowing production? They've decided they don't like money? Tired of tripping over bags of gold in the lobby? Doubt it.

The only reaso why production slowed is because of Solo’s box office result, not TLJ’s. Eiger explicitly stated as much. Solo was a disappointment in terms of box office results stemming from its production issues and the timing of its release. It has nothing to do with TLJs box office performance.

Anyway, been a hoot but I'm done with this round of Pong, tah everyone.

2 minutes ago, 2P51 said:

Anyway, been a hoot but I'm done with this round of Pong, tah everyone.

Don't forget your goal posts!

I can agree with all of these points actually. The main part I liked about the arc was the bitter Luke since he had spent his entire life up to this point re-building the Jedi order, only to evaporate because of a bad impulsive decision he almost made but didn't go through with. I actually felt that particular part of the movie was done pretty well all things considered, it gave some shape to Rey's training (which, lets face it, is largely as much on screen time training as Luke had in Episode 5.) and it established Kylo's Ren's strong motivation in wanting to be corrupted in darkness as he was betrayed by the one person he should have been able to absolutely trust. And Luke is a character who made a lot of impulsive decisions in the OT, he almost struck his own father down before he redeemed him and it took conscious effort to draw himself back. Just this time almost wasn't good enough and undid his life's work.

I just think that Finn's story arc was executed in an incredibly ham-fisted manner, Phasma was reheated like last week's Pizza, Rose was basically his lacky and Poe's arc, although an interesting concept honestly served to really stagment didn't really warrant him becoming a full screen character like he did. Three separate story arcs is way too much for a time deprivied environment to tell a great story I feel and when you effectively double the "main cast", you spend more time talking them you do telling a story. I felt it had a strong beginning and end, but the middle portion of the movie was a bit awkward to say the least, and honestly could have been streamlined to focus on two perspectives (Finn, Rey) and done much better for it.

At least in Empire the perspective changed between two perspectives, Luke and his friends. It then didn't go on to tell the incredible story of Wedge Attilies about how he tried to keep his crewmates together after taking relatively stable losses at Hoth, nor did it cut to the perspective of several admirals being chased by the imperial fleet deliberating whether or not they should just pack up their things and go home. It deliberately chose two perspectives to focus on, with a third cut away to remind us of what the main antagonist is doing and that's really it. Even the avengers movies only really work because they aren't telling the stories of the characters involved at all; the characters have an established history and the story is about the conflict of the movie. That's it.

Again, I'm super casual. If I weren't roleplaying in this system for 4/5 years I wouldn't be interested, I mainly watch to see where my character might potentially fit in within that particular time frame and go "well. Given my character's development now, this is what I want to aim for. I'm going to improve the sequel trilogy with my story! " Because I am not a star wars fan, I am just a roleplaying fan at heart that just happens to be playing this system. ^___^

That being said, I would probably recommend everyone just stepping away from their keyboards tonight and just having a chill out and discuss tomorrow.

3 minutes ago, LordBritish said:

Because I am not a star wars fan, I am just a roleplaying fan at heart that just happens to be playing this system. ^___^

Any interest in GMing/playing something else with the Genesys rules?

4 minutes ago, LordBritish said:

That being said, I would probably recommend everyone just stepping away from their keyboards tonight and just having a chill out and discuss tomorrow.

I've been working on stuff for a (kind of maybe, maybe not happening) game of Dungeon World while checking in on the thread.

As for the movie: I agree with the sagging middle bit. At least it wasn't the classic lackluster third act of so many blockbuster movies! But yeah, Canto Bight, while thematically interesting, did drag somewhat in the execution.

Phasma seems like such a deliberate attempt to recreate the Boba Fett mystique that it makes me cringe. That said, she worked for my young nephew. He instantly latched onto her strong visual design, just like with Vader and Kylo Ren. He likes bad people in awesome masks, I guess.

I wonder how many people bring kids when they watch these movies? Seeing kids I love lose their mind at Thor stormbreaking an army or Holdo express-laning into the triangle of evil is one of my great joys in life.

2 hours ago, Donovan Morningfire said:

I never said that TLJ was a "thinking man's Star Wars."

If you didn't say it, I'm calling dibs on that phrase because someone needs to say it.

7 hours ago, Donovan Morningfire said:

I'll thank you to not put words in my mouth, as I never said that TLJ was a "thinking man's Star Wars." It only requires a bit of thought to put the various puzzle pieces together. But since you obviously can't be bothered to do so yourself, then I'll spell it out for you.

*snip*

But as you seem content to hate on the film for not spoon-feeding you answers, I doubt anything I said will make any difference.

Donovan, I did quote you correctly. The first time that I responded to you. I mean, your very first response to me was to suggest that I didn't get TLJ because I didn't probably understand the nuances of the film's character development, which was a response so utterly pretentious that I just about choked. That was before you accused me of not using my brain. Well, fair enough, maybe I'm not. Maybe you get Star Wars and I don't. I simply chose to give a name to what you've been suggesting for this entire exchange, because apparently if you don't get TLJ, you're not smart. That's your core point, isn't it? If you've been suggesting otherwise this entire time, then please correct me, perhaps I was simply misreading your comments.

TLJ is a beautiful movie. The cinematography is gorgeous. The effects, the aliens, the makeup, the costumes... all superb. But the story... the story, and the character arcs. They are garbage.

Poe's arc could be completely removed without changing the story.

Finn's arc could be completely removed without changing the story.

Holdo served only to show that Poe was an incompetent ***.

The Luke that appeared in this film has no relation to the Luke that appeared in earlier films.

The appearances of Phasma, Maz Kanata, the droids, Ackbar, Hux, were all completely superfluous.

Those are my opinions. It's also my opinion that these elements are garbage because TLJ replaces storytelling with, "Aha, gotcha!" moments and, to a lesser extent, special effects sequences. That's not nuance. Sorry. That's how I feel.

I can accept that you have a different opinion about this movie and will never agree. I've explained my position numerous times now, and why I feel the way that I do, as have you. I don't believe that this makes you wrong, unintelligent, or imperceptive. But I must say, you seem to disagree.

That’s where people disagree with you @Cavgunner . Ryan Johnson wasnttrying to pull “gotcha” moments. What he was doing is trying to create a more nuanced movie that didn’t rely on tried and true tropes, or what people “expected”, but, rather, turned those tropes on their ear and give them something new and unexpected. He even said that all of our “theories” and expectations were pointless, since what he had planned would have nothing to do with any of them.

36 minutes ago, Tramp Graphics said:

That’s where people disagree with you @Cavgunner . Ryan Johnson wasnttrying to pull “gotcha” moments. What he was doing is trying to create a more nuanced movie that didn’t rely on tried and true tropes, or what people “expected”, but, rather, turned those tropes on their ear and give them something new and unexpected. He even said that all of our “theories” and expectations were pointless, since what he had planned would have nothing to do with any of them.

Change for the sake of change doesn't usually lead to good results. Tropes are tropes for a reason; they work, pure and simple. Not saying you can't do things outside of expectations, but if you do, you better make **** sure they work. This is especially tricky when dealing with well established universes, stories, and characters; such as with Star Wars. Stubbornly raging against tropes and expectations, like Rian Johnson did, isn't a recipe for universal success.

What perplexes me more than anything about this movie is how some people just can't get over the fact that others didn't like it. I've seen it twice and it was just as bad on netflix as it was in the theatre. There's not some grand conspiracy or other motivations behind most peoples dislike of the film, they just didn't like it. By comparison, I enjoyed Solo much more than TLJ, even with the uneven performance of its leading man.

One thing TLJ did for me was lessen my interest for all things Star Wars. I'm still a huge Star Wars fan, but after TLJ i cant say im excited about anything coming down the Lucasfilm pipeline. Probably will just wait until the next movie is for rent on itunes. Certainly not going to avoid spoilers like i did for TLJ.

2 minutes ago, ghatt said:

There's not some grand conspiracy or other motivations behind most peoples dislike of the film

No one here has suggested that this is the case.

Just now, Stan Fresh said:

No one here has suggested that this is the case.

Im not necessarily only referencing things from this thread.

2 hours ago, ghatt said:

some people just can't get over the fact that others didn't like it.

Because the others who didn't like it WON'T SHUT UP ABOUT IT.

Literally 90% of any fan-made Star Wars video on YouTube always gets the inevitable "Hurr durr, still better than TLJ, where my upvotes at" and "Fire Kathleen Kennedy! Fire Rian Johnson!" comments. And it still gets upvotes from the same 600 butt-hurt pseudo-fans who can't get over all their fan-theories getting debunked.

45 minutes ago, StriderZessei said:

Because the others who didn't like it WON'T SHUT UP ABOUT IT.

Literally 90% of any fan-made Star Wars video on YouTube always gets the inevitable "Hurr durr, still better than TLJ, where my upvotes at" and "Fire Kathleen Kennedy! Fire Rian Johnson!" comments. And it still gets upvotes from the same 600 butt-hurt pseudo-fans who can't get over all their fan-theories getting debunked.

I haven’t posted on here in months. Mayhaps you should look in the mirror sometime.

1 hour ago, ghatt said:

I haven’t posted on here in months. Mayhaps you should look in the mirror sometime.

It’s not you in particular he’s referring to. Every day on YouTube, I see rant videos posted railing against Disney, against Kathleen Kennedy, against TLJ, and anything to do with the modern Star Wars, and how “SJW’s” are ruining it. And they’re all by the same vocal minority. Regardless of my political position ( I’m very Conservative), I find these videos to be ridiculous and uncalled for.

5 hours ago, Tramp Graphics said:

That’s where people disagree with you @Cavgunner . Ryan Johnson wasnttrying to pull “gotcha” moments. What he was doing is trying to create a more nuanced movie that didn’t rely on tried and true tropes, or what people “expected”, but, rather, turned those tropes on their ear and give them something new and unexpected. He even said that all of our “theories” and expectations were pointless, since what he had planned would have nothing to do with any of them.

Some people. And with respect, your explanation seems somewhat contradictory.

I think we can all appreciate, in principle, any effort to provide a new, creative flair to a forty-year-old franchise. Unfortunately, in my opinion that does not seem to be what Rian did. There is a huge difference between introducing a creative twist and intentionally taking a dump on fan expectations. Some fans. Not all. But the thing is, I for one walked into this sandwich shop wanting a sandwich. And so a sandwich is what I expected to receive. Maybe not the exact same sandwich, mind you, but a sandwich of some kind nonetheless. I have ordered a sandwich on every prior occasion that I have entered this store, and for the most part, with perhaps one exception, I was satisfied with what I got.

Rian Johnson gave me a cake. Nothing wrong with cake. But it's not what I wanted or requested, not on this visit or any of my prior visits. Not only did I receive cake, judging from the open hostility of some in this thread, I'm expected to like the cake, and I'm wrong if I don't. Well I'm sorry. I keep seeing that word "nuanced" but the actual actions of the important characters in TLJ don't make sense . Poe and Finn in particular literally lose 50 IQ points in between movies. Meanwhile the appearances of nearly all the minor characters amount to irrelevance. That's not storytelling. Sorry, it's not.

So yes, I think you are absolutely correct that Rian had zero concern in regard to fan expectations. All fans? Again, no. But I think it was clearly a significant number. So what you call "unexpected" and "nuanced" I call contemptuous. I deeply regret that JJ Abrams did not direct the last Last Jedi. JJ is far from a perfect director* * and TFA wasn't perfect either, but it was certainly serviceable. Most of all TFA assured me that JJ understood what Star Wars was . Rian? Rian didn't care. He just made a movie about stupid people making stupid decisions in space, and that nothing that happened before mattered or was important, to the point that even the sacrifice and redemption of Anakin Skywalker is now irrelevant. I think it's a safe bet to assume that JJ would certainly not have gone in that direction. So what's going to happen now is that JJ is going to try and perform damage control in Episode 9 to undo what Rian has inflicted on the original story treatment. This may be a nearly impossible task, but at least JJ will try.

**I would have much preferred Spielberg at the helm of a Star Wars movie, maybe he would have directed one as a favor to Lucas 15-20 years ago but he'll never do it now.

2 hours ago, Tramp Graphics said:

It’s not you in particular he’s referring to. Every day on YouTube, I see rant videos posted railing against Disney, against Kathleen Kennedy, against TLJ, and anything to do with the modern Star Wars, and how “SJW’s” are ruining it. And they’re all by the same vocal minority. Regardless of my political position ( I’m very Conservative), I find these videos to be ridiculous and uncalled for.

Ah, well youtube is full of nutter butters. I stear clear of that kind of stuff in general.

Most people I know didn't care for TLJ, but I do have a handful of friends that just seem completely bewildered why I don't. It's tiresome.

For the record, my reasons for not liking it have nothing to do with political nonsense. I'm fairly liberal these days.

2 hours ago, Tramp Graphics said:

It’s not you in particular he’s referring to. Every day on YouTube, I see rant videos posted railing against Disney, against Kathleen Kennedy, against TLJ, and anything to do with the modern Star Wars, and how “SJW’s” are ruining it. And they’re all by the same vocal minority. Regardless of my political position ( I’m very Conservative), I find these videos to be ridiculous and uncalled for.

Ah, well youtube is full of nutter butters. I stear clear of that kind of stuff in general.

Most people I know didn't care for TLJ, but I do have a handful of friends that just seem completely bewildered why I don't. It's tiresome.

duplicate, please delete.

5 hours ago, StriderZessei said:

Because the others who didn't like it WON'T SHUT UP ABOUT IT.

Or whine about how "this didn't make sense!" or "they never explained why Character X did Y!" when the reality of the matter the film does indeed answer many of those questions where it's relevant to the plot, but as I've cited above requires the viewer to do more than sit passively in their chair like a lump of protoplasm. And when folks do say "yeah, that got answered, and here it is," they get all high and mighty and defensive.

The part I'm curious about all this is the recent assumption that the prequels are a beloved part of the franchise that were recieved positively in their time. Seems like a lot of people, particularly younger people, hold this opinion. Phantom Menance came out twenty years ago, it's not as if the fanbase has been divided before.

3 minutes ago, LithiumBlossom said:

The part I'm curious about all this is the recent assumption that the prequels are a beloved part of the franchise that were recieved positively in their time. Seems like a lot of people, particularly younger people, hold this opinion. Phantom Menance came out twenty years ago, it's not as if the fanbase has been divided before.

It's equally interesting that when it was released, the now-beloved ESB was trashed by fans and critics of the time, and was seen by some as the death of Star Wars.

I guess Star Wars really does adhere to the ring theory, given that the prequels are no longer being so loudly crapped upon as the worst of the Star Wars films. I do wonder if it'll be just a decade before TLJ gets the same sort of accolades that ESB is being served, seeing as how both films went ahead and challenged audience expectations of how things were going to go.

But with TLJ, I think the biggest issue is that much like TPM, there was all sorts of head canon that portions of the fandom had built up and expected to see, and then flew off into nerd rage when the filmmaker in question (Lucas for TPM, Johnson for TLJ) dared to do something entirely unexpected. I went into to TPM with very little expectation of how the film's plot was going to go, and I enjoyed it (apart from most of the Jar Jar humor as I found overtly crass, which is saying something given my fondness for Three Stooges shorts).

Perhaps this is an indication that a decade or two from now, TLJ will be just as much of a franchise darling as ESB has become?