1 minute ago, 2P51 said:

So Eiger slowed production of new content because he was happy with gross receipts and IP direction? Doubt it.

Wow look at those goal posts move!

We're talking audience response, not Disney's.

2 minutes ago, Stan Fresh said:

Wow look at those goal posts move!

We're talking audience response, not Disney's.

Audience's bought $750,000,000 less in tickets, it's a response. It's also the only one companies give a crap about.

40 minutes ago, 2P51 said:

So Eiger slowed production of new content because he was happy with gross receipts and IP direction? Doubt it. A CEO doesn't do either when they think all the customers are happy.

Eiger slowed production because of the relatively poor performance of Solo , not TLJ.

Just now, Tramp Graphics said:

Roger slowed production because of the relatively poor performance of Solo , not TLJ.

TLJ and Solo both have had a 35% drop in gross receipts compared to the 1st trilogy and anthology movies respectively. That's not the correct direction.

5 minutes ago, Tramp Graphics said:

Roger slowed production because of the relatively poor performance of Solo , not TLJ.

They fired the director on 9 a year into pre-production because of Solo? Doubt it. Sure sounds more like they weren't happy with direction to me.

4 minutes ago, 2P51 said:

Audience's bought $750,000,000 less in tickets, it's a response. It's also the only one companies give a crap about.

That fewer people went to see a sequel than the first one in a trilogy doesn't mean that a significant number of those who did see the sequel disliked it.

7 minutes ago, Stan Fresh said:

That fewer people went to see a sequel than the first one in a trilogy doesn't mean that a significant number of those who did see the sequel disliked it.

It did in my case and better than half the people at my table. It's not fewer people, it's fewer repeat customers. I saw TFA and R1 mutliple times. I saw TLJ once. These big blockbusters make billions off people seeing them multiple times, or not. Unless you're taking the position that TFA just had $750,000,000 worth of additional viewers seeing it?

I'm not going to get into the talking back and forth situation, if Disney thought things were going well they wouldn't be making the decisions they're making, that's just not an actual debate.

8 minutes ago, 2P51 said:

They fired the director on 9 a year into pre-production because of Solo? Doubt it. Sure sounds more like they weren't happy with direction to me.

They fired him because of the creative direction he wanted to take episode IX, in regards to its particular story, not because of TLJ.

10 minutes ago, Tramp Graphics said:

They fired him because of the creative direction he wanted to take episode IX, in regards to its particular story, not because of TLJ.

The point of the thread though isn't just TLJ, it's the whole troll-bot influencing people and everything is actually rosy in the IP and that there wasn't just a lot of people who flat out disliked TLJ, I simply don't agree.

I find these forums to be a very broad representation of fandom from literally around the world with a varied socio-demographic background represented. Reading both this thread, as well as the previous movie/spoliers one that ended up locked, shows very clearly there is a 2 mile wide opinion DMZ right down the middle of fandom on TLJ. It's just not a debate in my eyes.

The dramatic drop in gross receipts coupled with Disney's decisions shows clearly they don't think things are going well. I don't believe Disney would be making the decisions they are if they thought it was just toxic fans and/or Russian bots.

I disagree. Yes, there are people who dislike the direction Disney has taken the franchise. But I don’t believe for an instant that it is half the fandom. Solo “failed” because it came out too soon after TLJ (only five months) and also right on top of Avengers , and it was way over budget from Ron Howard having to essentially refilm over 60% of the movie because of the creative mess the previous directors were making. This was part of the problem with Justice League as well.

2 minutes ago, 2P51 said:

it's the whole troll-bot influencing people and everything is actually rosy in the IP 

As has been pointed out multiple times, that is not the thrust of the thread. That you cling to this falsehood, either wittingly or unwittingly, doesn't make it any more true than it was the last time someone brought it up.

16 minutes ago, 2P51 said:

It did in my case and better than half the people at my table.

And I saw it multiple times, with different people who all loved it.

The prequels followed the same pattern with audiences. Far more people saw Phantom Menace than they saw Attack of the Clones or Revenge of the Sith, yet Sith is the best movie out of those. Not every movie is or can be Infinity War.

5 minutes ago, Tramp Graphics said:

I disagree. Yes, there are people who dislike the direction Disney has taken the franchise. But I don’t believe for an instant that it is half the fandom. Solo “failed” because it came out too soon after TLJ (only five months) and also right on top of Avengers , and it was way over budget from Ron Howard having to essentially refilm over 60% of the movie because of the creative mess the previous directors were making. This was part of the problem with Justice League as well.

I would never tell anyone what to believe, but 750 billion $ is 750 billion $. Money talks BS walks.

6 minutes ago, Stan Fresh said:

As has been pointed out multiple times, that is not the thrust of the thread. That you cling to this falsehood, either wittingly or unwittingly, doesn't make it any more true than it was the last time someone brought it up.

And I saw it multiple times, with different people who all loved it.

The prequels followed the same pattern with audiences. Far more people saw Phantom Menace than they saw Attack of the Clones or Revenge of the Sith, yet Sith is the best movie out of those. Not every movie is or can be Infinity War.

I cling to nothing. Disney is clearly making decisions that shows they feel there needs to be a change.

23 minutes ago, 2P51 said:

I cling to nothing.

Except misrepresentation of what's been said in this and previous threads.

23 minutes ago, 2P51 said:

I would never tell anyone what to believe, but 750 billion $ is 750 billion $. Money talks BS walks.

Excuse me? Did you just say $750 Billion , with a “B”? Neither movie even came close to that number. I just looked up TFA’s box office take on Box Office Mojo. This is what I found:

Worldwide: $2,068,223,624

This was TLJ’s box office total:

Worldwide: $1,332,539,889

Yes, it’s less, than TFA, but hardly a disappointment.

And, for the record, ESB made less than ANH as well, by over 200 million, and fans consider that tone the better movie of the two. And that was by 1970s dollars.

ANH: Worldwide: $775,398,007

ESB: Worldwide: $538,375,067

1 minute ago, Tramp Graphics said:

Excuse me? Did you just say $750 Billion , with a “B”? Neither movie even came close to that number. I just looked up TFA’s box office take on Box Office Mojo. This is what I found:

Worldwide: $2,068,223,624

This was TLJ’s box office total:

Worldwide: $1,332,539,889

Yes, it’s less, than TFA, but hardly a disappointment.

And, for the record, ESB made less than ANH as well, by over 200 million, and fans consider that tone the better movie of the two. And that was by 1970s dollars.

ANH: Worldwide: $775,398,007

ESB: Worldwide: $538,375,067

Yes, I misspelled, originally typed 3/4 of a billion.

The thread is already the song that never ends, bottom line is Disney is slowing production and I doubt it's because they want to make less money

5 minutes ago, Tramp Graphics said:

And, for the record, ESB made less than ANH as well, by over 200 million, and fans consider that tone the better movie of the two. And that was by 1970s dollars. 

It's the general pattern with sequels, but that li'l fact doesn't fit his narrative.

I wonder if the insults against those critical of TLJ are coming from bots... My theory is it's just fanboy toxicity (or is that "reverse-toxicity" now, which is still toxicity).

Mostly I wonder why the Russian troll-bot army apparently liked TFA and R1 but not TLJ and Solo?......

6 minutes ago, Stan Fresh said:

It's the general pattern with sequels, but that li'l fact doesn't fit his narrative.

My only narrative is if Disney thought the majority of fans were actually happy why are they slowing production? They've decided they don't like money? Tired of tripping over bags of gold in the lobby? Doubt it.

5 hours ago, Cavgunner said:

That's a laugh, Donovan. A real laugh. You are really portraying TLJ as the thinking man's Star Wars? Really?

Ok then, since you clearly think that I "just don't get it."

Explain to my why Poe, an experienced leader, disobeys direct orders twice and gets his whole fighter command killed, but at the end we're ok with it, because he grew as a character!

Explain to me why Finn and Rose went AWOL and got 80% of the remaining Resistance force killed, but at the end we're ok with it, because awwww Rose loves Finn!

Explain to me what purpose Holdo serves in this movie when better characters were available.

Explain to me who Snoke is. (I'll give you a hint: Nobody. Rian Johnson doesn't care about your Snoke theory.)

Explain to me why Luke nearly committed murder. Yes, he changed his mind. But explain to me how what he saw in Kylo was worse than anything in Vader's heart. And then explain to me why Luke was nearly ready to abandon Kylo but not Vader.

Because you're right. I don't get it.

I'll thank you to not put words in my mouth, as I never said that TLJ was a "thinking man's Star Wars." It only requires a bit of thought to put the various puzzle pieces together. But since you obviously can't be bothered to do so yourself, then I'll spell it out for you.

For Poe, re-watch the opening sequence, where he flat out disobeys a direct order from a superior that he admires, and in so doing illustrates that he's more concerned with victory/glory than practicality . So when he learned what Admiral Holdo (who had zero reason to trust him, especially after Leia had busted him down to captain and thus off the command staff for his little stunt of getting all their bombers and crew destroyed to take out a single FO cruiser) didn't tell him the plans (after all, what was left of the upper brass probably figured they had a spy on board, so the fewer folks that knew the full plan, the better), he did the one thing a seasoned military man shouldn't have done and pretty much blab the plan to the entire ship. It was also Poe's ego that kept him from going to Holdo and telling her "hey, we think we know how the First Order was able to track us through hyperspace, and we may have a way to disable that tracker." Instead, he went off on a half-cocked mission that resulted in the Resistance suffering even greater losses when they couldn't afford any. Leia and Holdo's plan was pretty sound, and would likely have worked if Poe hadn't been the egotistical hothead (which we saw signs of in TFA) and instead acted as a proper soldier instead of thinking he'd be the guy to save the day. Poe was a military maverick, and outside of movies that sort of person tends to cause a lot more harm than good to whichever cause they're serving. In an actual proper military, you can bet he'd wind up court-martialed for his actions, especially the mutiny, but lucky for him the Resistance isn't a proper military and it needs all the skilled personnel it can get, and whatever his character faults might be, Poe is one heck of a fighter pilot.

Finn and Rose went on their side-jaunt because they believed Poe's version of events, which Finn would have no reason to doubt and Rose would have no way to validate (she's lower deck crew). By the point they join back up with the Resistance, said group is so short-handed that they need every able bodied person they can get their hands on. Plus, it can be said they were following Poe's (frankly illegal) orders on a Resistance mission. Plus, Finn technically wasn't a part of the Resistance, being in effect a freelancer that was free to go (even if Rose felt otherwise). As for Rose, she only left on that mission under Poe's orders, who was a ranking officer in what amounted to a guerilla force.

Snoke boils down to a simple plot device, there to further Kylo Ren's story, much like the Emperor was back in 1983 in RotJ, existing simply to fuel Vader's redemption. Beyond that story need, Snoke's identity really is irrelevant as he's just as much a plot device as Yoda was when we met him in 1980 for ESB. And when we were introduced to the Emperor and to Yoda, there was next-to-nothing on who they were beyond "evil ruler of the Empire" and "ancient Jedi Master" respectively, with their backstories only being filled in more than a decade afterwards.

Luke explains his moment of weakness in the film, which you'd know if you actually paid attention. He saw that Ben was (to his view) completely lost to the dark side with their being no conflict between good and dark that he could sense (unlike Vader in whom he could sense good/conflict), and in that moment of fear of unleashing another Darth Vader, he considered for that briefest of moments to do the unthinkable, running the cold equation of trading the life of a (then) innocent boy to spare the galaxy from suffering under another dark side menace, before deciding he can't do it. And he goes on to say in the film once the actual version of events comes out that he screwed up and winded up pushing Ben to embrace the dark side and become Kylo Ren.

But as you seem content to hate on the film for not spoon-feeding you answers, I doubt anything I said will make any difference.

7 minutes ago, 2P51 said:

My only narrative is if Disney thought the majority of fans were actually happy why are they slowing production? They've decided they don't like money? Tired of tripping over bags of gold in the lobby? Doubt it.

Now we're judging artistic success of movies by how content with their financial success a CEO is.

1 minute ago, Stan Fresh said:

Now we're judging artistic success of movies by how content with their financial success a CEO is.

No, but we sure aren't making them without it.

Just now, 2P51 said:

No, but we sure aren't making them without it.

So has production on Episode 9 been stopped, then?

3 minutes ago, Stan Fresh said:

So has production on Episode 9 been stopped, then?

No, but decisions about what comes next were deferred according to the Eiger interview. Decisions which from the article that are just now being made.