15 hours ago, StriderZessei said:

Except we aren't given even that. They're just Empire 2.0, but we aren't even told why they are, or how they came to be.

When it's a new franchise, I get it, but when continuing the story of an established property, the audience rightfully expects to be told how we've gotten here. What is the New Republic? How does the Resistance fit into it? Where did the First Order come from?

I get what you're saying, but I don't agree. And trying to compare side characters like Tarkin, Chewie, and Boba to the film's primary antagonistic force is just a stretch.

Yes, we are. The opening crawl specifically states that the First Order rose directly from the remnants of the Empire. They are a direct continuation of it, and their depiction is very much"Neo Imperial".

The Republic, is what the Rebellion was fighting to restore. Remember, the "official" name for the Rebel Alliance was the Alliance to Restore the Republic . It's not hard to figure out, that with the defeat of the Empire, that the Rebublic would be restored. The crawl also explains that the Resistance was created to fight the First Order. It's all covered.

Read the crawl:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k7tTXcdEgIM

twas ever thus. I, alone, apparently loved the prequels. No Lucas, no Star Wars

2 hours ago, Orjo Creld said:

twas ever thus. I, alone, apparently loved the prequels. No Lucas, no Star Wars

Your haiku skills need refinement. 5, 7, 5 should be your syllable count.

On 10/2/2018 at 1:10 PM, HappyDaze said:

I think TLJ was a crapsack of a movie, and I own that opinion without need to blame others for "fanning the flames of divisiveness" as you call it. A negative opinion is just as valid as a positive one, and conspiracy theories to explain why it got negative reviews sounds like a lame attempt to dismiss opposing viewpoints.

Indeed. Colluding to convince the masses that TLJ is a terrible movie must be the least ambitious conspiracy of the modern era. It's like pushing on an open door. Seriously, the idea that there would be a substantial amount of people out there who, but solely for the machinations of some online trolls, would otherwise love that stinking turd of a movie is insane. Further, the idea that if TLJ had been produced by Lucas himself (which he never in a million years would have done) instead of Disney, people wouldn't hate it is also absurd and refuted by history. The OP's analogy is childish and dismissive -- the people he's talking about genuinely hate TLJ AND the people who made it for that and other reasons.

On 10/8/2018 at 2:09 PM, Tramp Graphics said:

Yes, we are. The opening crawl specifically states that the First Order rose directly from the remnants of the Empire. They are a direct continuation of it, and their depiction is very much"Neo Imperial".

The Republic, is what the Rebellion was fighting to restore. Remember, the "official" name for the Rebel Alliance was the Alliance to Restore the Republic . It's not hard to figure out, that with the defeat of the Empire, that the Rebublic would be restored. The crawl also explains that the Resistance was created to fight the First Order. It's all covered.

Read the crawl:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k7tTXcdEgIM

Thanks for reminding me, I had honestly forgotten that.

But again, I stand by the fact that we aren't really given much of what the First Order really wants. Their motivation, etc.

And I still refer to my points that we really aren't given much understanding regarding what the Resistance is in relation to the Republic. I mean, there's a reason why three books bridging the gap had to be written.

And I hope I'm not coming off as argumentative or stubborn here. I really enjoy the sequels so far; I'm just mad that so many people are so hateful towards Rian when JJ left so much in his lap.

18 minutes ago, StriderZessei said:

Thanks for reminding me, I had honestly forgotten that.

But again, I stand by the fact that we aren't really given much of what the First Order really wants. Their motivation, etc.

And I still refer to my points that we really aren't given much understanding regarding what the Resistance is in relation to the Republic. I mean, there's a reason why three books bridging the gap had to be written.

And I hope I'm not coming off as argumentative or stubborn here. I really enjoy the sequels so far; I'm just mad that so many people are so hateful towards Rian when JJ left so much in his lap.

There motivation is simple: conquer the galaxy and restore Imperial rule, and squash all hope from the galaxy, just like Palpatine.

27 minutes ago, StriderZessei said:

Thanks for reminding me, I had honestly forgotten that.

But again, I stand by the fact that we aren't really given much of what the First Order really wants. Their motivation, etc.

And I still refer to my points that we really aren't given much understanding regarding what the Resistance is in relation to the Republic. I mean, there's a reason why three books bridging the gap had to be written.

And I hope I'm not coming off as argumentative or stubborn here. I really enjoy the sequels so far; I'm just mad that so many people are so hateful towards Rian when JJ left so much in his lap.

Read the Claudia Grey novels, and the Poe Dameron comics for motivations of the First Order, Star Wars always has further material that explores the movie universe. I'm not sure why they switched directors mid trilogy, and then back.

2 minutes ago, Eoen said:

Read the Claudia Grey novels, and the Poe Dameron comics for motivations of the First Order, Star Wars always has further material that explores the movie universe. I'm not sure why they switched directors mid trilogy, and then back.

Because JJ didn't want to do the whole thing originally. They also fired dude from 9, and then I'm sure plead with JJ to finish it up.

21 minutes ago, Tramp Graphics said:

There motivation is simple: conquer the galaxy and restore Imperial rule, and squash all hope from the galaxy, just like Palpatine.

Order vs Chaos, seems to be their motivation. People lived through the Clone Wars they wanted order. The Imperials who lost the Galactic Civil War still wanted order. The Republic was good for some people and horrible for lots of others, while the Empire sucked for less people most of the time especially in the Core Worlds, but was super awful to its enemies. The Republic was like a negligent parent while the Empire was a strict disciplinarian.

39 minutes ago, Eoen said:

Order vs Chaos, seems to be their motivation. People lived through the Clone Wars they wanted order. The Imperials who lost the Galactic Civil War still wanted order. The Republic was good for some people and horrible for lots of others, while the Empire sucked for less people most of the time especially in the Core Worlds, but was super awful to its enemies. The Republic was like a negligent parent while the Empire was a strict disciplinarian.

Not quite. The people who started the First Order weren’t run of the mill Imperials. They were fanatics loyal to Palpatine, not simply the Empire. And Snoke also made it clear that they sought to exterminate the Light and Hope from the galaxy, bringing about a never ending reign of darkness and despair.

45 minutes ago, Tramp Graphics said:

Not quite. The people who started the First Order weren’t run of the mill Imperials. They were fanatics loyal to Palpatine, not simply the Empire. And Snoke also made it clear that they sought to exterminate the Light and Hope from the galaxy, bringing about a never ending reign of darkness and despair.

Well it remains to be seen how Snoke got his hands on the first order, looks like Marvel is making a Snoke limited run comic some time next year. I didn't finish all of the Wendig books they were bad.

23 minutes ago, Eoen said:

Well it remains to be seen how Snoke got his hands on the first order, looks like Marvel is making a Snoke limited run comic some time next year. I didn't finish all of the Wendig books they were bad.

Very true. That’s something we may or may not learn in episode IX.

19 hours ago, Lorne said:

Indeed. Colluding to convince the masses that TLJ is a terrible movie must be the least ambitious conspiracy of the modern era. It's like pushing on an open door. Seriously, the idea that there would be a substantial amount of people out there who, but solely for the machinations of some online trolls, would otherwise love that stinking turd of a movie is insane. Further, the idea that if TLJ had been produced by Lucas himself (which he never in a million years would have done) instead of Disney, people wouldn't hate it is also absurd and refuted by history. The OP's analogy is childish and dismissive -- the people he's talking about genuinely hate TLJ AND the people who made it for that and other reasons.

And if the study mentioned stated that the “collusion” was to convince people who didn’t like the movie that they didn’t like the movie, you might have a point. Instead, its findings were that many of the over-the-top vitriolic posts weren’t exactly genuine.

Some people didn’t like it. There’s a shock, because there’s not a single movie that can say otherwise. (My dad, for example, can’t stand The Princess Bride, a movie that you’re hard-pressed to find people to say anything bad about.) But does disliking this - or any - movie really call for harassing the people who made it? It can’t just be a matter of a movie being made that one had hoped to like, but didn’t? It requires a full-on attack on anyone involved in its production or anyone who did enjoy it?

59 minutes ago, Nytwyng said:

And if the study mentioned stated that the “collusion” was to convince people who didn’t like the movie that they didn’t like the movie, you might have a point. Instead, its findings were that many of the over-the-top vitriolic posts weren’t exactly genuine.

Some people didn’t like it. There’s a shock, because there’s not a single movie that can say otherwise. (My dad, for example, can’t stand The Princess Bride, a movie that you’re hard-pressed to find people to say anything bad about.) But does disliking this - or any - movie really call for harassing the people who made it? It can’t just be a matter of a movie being made that one had hoped to like, but didn’t? It requires a full-on attack on anyone involved in its production or anyone who did enjoy it?

There have also been articles out debunking the article you mention. Either the original article or those debunking it are crap, but probably both are.

1 hour ago, HappyDaze said:

There have also been articles out debunking the article you mention. Either the original article or those debunking it are crap, but probably both are.

Let’s take that as a given for a moment, just for the sake of discussion.

My entire final paragraph still stands.

20 hours ago, Nytwyng said:

Let’s take that as a given for a moment, just for the sake of discussion.

My entire final paragraph still stands.

You entire final paragraph also only applies to a minute portion of the people who you're talking about.

30 minutes ago, Nivrap said:

You entire final paragraph also only applies to a minute portion of the people who you're talking about.

Welcome to my point.

That paragraph was specifically referring to that small (but vocal) portion.

What does the First Order want?

On ‎9‎/‎27‎/‎2018 at 1:14 PM, KungFuFerret said:

The really toxic ******* about the new films, really feel like a kid, who walked into his room, and found his little sister playing with his Star Wars action figures, and is furious because she's having them do stuff that he doesn't want them doing. So he yells to his mom to "make her stop touching my things! She's not playing with them the right way!!"  

Well, that's the thing, isn't it. When you have established characters their motivations and actions need to be internally consistent. This is something that the Marvel movies, for their flaws, have done very well.

Spoilers ahead.

Meanwhile, TLJ. Hoo boy. Let's just take the most important failing point: Luke. Here you have the guy who literally brought Anakin Skywalker back from the dark side. The guy who never gave up on anyone - NEVER. But somehow, TLJ expects me to believe that this same guy was going to murder his nephew in his sleep. And furthermore, that after having screwed that up, he spent the next decade or two feeling sorry for himself.

Nope. Not buying it. Throwing the lightsaber over his shoulder was designed solely as a moment to shock. Nothing more. The same with his death. Oh! He wasn't there! Kylo didn't kill him! Oh but wait! He dies anyway.

Such bologna. Luke's actions are simply not internally consistent with what we know about Luke as a character.

On a really big level, I can appreciate that Disney tried to do something out of the box with TLJ. I really do. Unfortunately, when taken together, the whole of that movie was much less than the sum of its parts. Poe was directly responsible for getting nearly the entire Resistance fighter corps killed. Fynn goes on a pointless wild goose chase that directly results in the deaths of many more Resistance members. Rey becomes the most powerful, awesome, and skilled Jedi EVER after literally 3 minutes of training. Admiral Holdo was completely pointless. THAT whole arc should have been about Ackbar, but instead he gets blown out the window without so much as a thank you, because we don't care who your favorite characters are. Maz Kanata is reduced to another pointless character- who is she? Why does she know so much about the Force? Too bad, you won't learn anything about her this movie, maybe next time! And the hyperspace ram. I will admit, it looked darn good in the theater. But... why hadn't anyone thought of that before? Why isn't everyone using hyperspace weaponry? Rian Johnson thinks that hyperspace is just "going really fast" but it's not. The ship literally enters another dimension. It's called, you know, HYPERSPACE. But hey, why should he care? Just like Luke throwing away the lightsaber, the same lightsaber that spoke to Rey, the same lightstaber that is now apparently destroyed for good, the hyperspace ram was all about the SHOCK of that scene, man, and to heck with the lore.

And after it all? After the entire Resistance has been reduced to maybe 20 people *at most* on the Falcon? They are all relaxed, smiles and hugs. What? Dudes. Almost all of your comrades just DIED.

God I could go on. I would rewatch Episode I ten times in a row before I'd be tempted to watch TLJ again.

3 hours ago, Cavgunner said:

Well, that's the thing, isn't it. When you have established characters their motivations and actions need to be internally consistent. This is something that the Marvel movies, for their flaws, have done very well.

Meanwhile, TLJ. Hoo boy. Let's just take the most important failing point: Luke. Here you have the guy who literally brought Anakin Skywalker back from the dark side. The guy who never gave up on anyone - NEVER. But somehow, TLJ expects me to believe that this same guy was going to murder his nephew in his sleep. And furthermore, that after having screwed that up, he spent the next decade or two feeling sorry for himself.

Here's the problem with that outlook...

We have no idea what else happened to Luke from where we last saw him in RotJ, having won but in the process lost his father whom he'd been determined to save for half the film to when we see him again in TLJ.

Apart from the horror of having pretty much kickstarted Ben's fall to darkness and the death of most of his students, many of whom were probably in their teens or younger (i.e children), which in and of itself is enough to break all but the most callous and emotionally-desensitized of human beings, there could have been other things along the way that caused Luke to become far more jaded than the guy in his early 20's we saw at Endor. And even at that point in his life, Luke had been through some serious crap, namely losing the only family he'd ever known; yes, ANH glossed over it, but it's safe to say that he spent some time at the farm's ruins grieving, given that when he returned Ben and the droids had a pretty good funeral pyre going for the dead Jawas. In that same film he loses his mentor figure and then his childhood best friend, whom he'd only just reconnected with. It was very likely that his sense of duty to the Rebellion and desire to live up to the idolized version of his father that kept Luke going in the wake of such a dramatic upheaval of his life within what was probably a very short time frame.

But then you've got ESB, where his world view gets seriously challenged and he learns the horrible truth of his father as well as the betrayal of trust that comes with learning the teacher you trusted and respected outright lied you (there's a reason why the line "from a certain point of view" is known as Jedi-speak for "I lied through my teeth" among fans). In RotJ, he's a very different person, being much more somber and serious than the starry-eyed kid of ANH or the eager hero of ESB. He still finds a moment or two to crack wise, but that sunny disposition he had in the prior films is pretty much gone. It can even be argued that his whole desire to redeem Vader rather than kill him is based less on idealism and more on a desire to not lose one of the few living relatives he's got left and perhaps even get back the father that he'd idolized but never got to know. At the end of RotJ, Luke has to come to terms that while Anakin was redeemed and died saving the galaxy, the fact remains that Anakin is still dead.

Now, 30 years later and in the midst of some horrific PTSD from believing that (rightly so) he's responsible for the death of children (again, a shocking thing unless you're a sociopath or a sicko who revels in that sort of thing) as well as who knows how many other failures and setbacks he's suffered after trying to relaunch the Jedi Order. It's very likely that after he accomplished what many would consider an impossible feat, that of defeating both Vader and the Emperor in a single battle, Luke felt that he could accomplish anything, suffering the same sort of arrogance that Obi-Wan did with regards to training Anakin. Add on that he's probably lost countless allies and friends during the fight against the Empire, and the self-loathing that comes from pretty much having royally screwed up and sent the child of your sister and your best friend over to the guys that are trying to kickstart up the very same type of totalirian regime that he'd spent the better part of five years fighting against... it's very easy for a living being reach a point where they simply decide that the pain is just not worth it and that they want to be left alone, especially given the parallels between how Obi-Wan bolloxed the job with training Anakin and Luke's own failed efforts with Ben, to say nothing of the out and out shame of knowing you were a hair's breadth of murdering a sleeping defenseless child that was your own flesh and blood. And since Luke very much isn't the emotionless robot the way that some RPG player-characters are, that was probably the straw that finally broke the camel's back, with the destruction of the temple and the deaths of the other students (again, most of whom were likely to be children) adding another heaping serving of failure to the despair sundae. And from what we know of the timeline, the whole Ben Solo fiasco had only occurred a couple years ago, given the book Bloodlines took place about 3 years prior to TFA, and Leia mentions that Ben is training with Luke at that time. So it wasn't even a full decade that had passed between the temple's destruction and TFA. For all we know, it's possible that Luke initially spent much of his time looking for the first Jedi Temple as a way to try and undo his mistakes, only to gradually come to the realization and conclusion that the Jedi Order needed to truly die out; it was only later when he realized (thanks to Yoda) that he was partly right, that the ways of the old Jed Order needed to die, and that a fresh start was needed (and which Rey will presumably provide thanks to what she's learned and from those ancient texts she swiped before leaving). Of course, the fact he spent a lengthy period of time (likely around a year, possibly less depending on how long it took him to find Aech-To's location) in solitude to brood over his failings as a Jedi Master isn't going to help that roaring case of PTSD he's got going from being ultimately responsible for sparking off the murder of innocent children because of a single moment of weakness spawned by his own fears.

As I've noted above, if you pay attention to the OT (the very films that so many folks place on a pedestal of childhood nostalgia), then you see that Luke is affected by loss as the trilogy goes on, and looses more and more of his innocence, and again we don't know what other trials and tribulations he's gone through between RotJ and TLJ on top of the consequences of his arrogant presumption that resulted in handing his nephew over to the bad guys.

Living beings grow and change, not only physically, but emotionally and psychologically. Unless they've been living in a vacuum apart from the entirety of human society, nobody on these forums is the same person they were five years ago, much less thirty years ago, especially not when they've gone through the sort of emotionally traumatic incidents that Luke had gone through.

But than again, it seems that nuanced characters aren't what some folks such as yourself wanted, and would have instead preferred the sort of over-the-top Force-powered shenanigans you'll find in the Force Unleashed games, all while missing the point that this is no longer Luke's story, that he's by and large played his role and that it's time for a new generation of heroes to step up to the plate.

3 hours ago, Cavgunner said:

Meanwhile, TLJ. Hoo boy. Let's just take the most important failing point: Luke. Here you have the guy who literally brought Anakin Skywalker back from the dark side. The guy who never gave up on anyone - NEVER. But somehow, TLJ expects me to believe that this same guy was going to murder his nephew in his sleep. And furthermore, that after having screwed that up, he spent the next decade or two feeling sorry for himself.

Well, it's disputable whether he actually tried to kill Kylo. He had a momentary lapse of reason when he considered it out of fear, much like when he came close to finishing off Vader in a rage, but stopped himself in time. With Kylo, his moment of doubt blew epically in his face in the worst way possible. To me this is what makes him give up on the only person he has shown having a penchant for giving up on (" I can't. It's too big.") . Himself. As I saw it, Luke didn't give up on Kylo and started seeing him as the ultimate bad guy, he gave up on himself for breaking the galaxy in a moment of hubris and is terrified of breaking it further. He might not even fear falling to the dark side and becoming a new Vader as much as through indecision, making things worse again. After all, as Yoda told him "Do, or do not. There is no try.". He might be beating himself up for even considering murdering Kylo, but he might have to also deal with the terrible suspicion that things would be better (or less bad) had he actually followed through with it. So at least in his own mind, I can see him framing it as trying to kill Kylo in the sense that he ended up in the disastrous area between Do and do not Yoda warned him about. At worst he sees himself as the villain and at best a dangerous liability. As for Kylo, whatever he's done, Luke likely blames himself for pushing him to it, and takes that blame onto himself, because Luke isn't willing to give up on him.

Well that's at least my read of the movie. I think it's important not get too stuck in the head canon you've built up about a character when filling in the gaps in the old movies. You have to take everything into context, even later depictions. A character is not necessarily inconsistent because he deviates from the impression he gave in previous installments, only if his earlier and later depictions are irreconcilable with each other when considering every part of the puzzle . I don't think the depictions are irreconcilable, once we consider all the info about the character we weren't privy to before TLJ. That might, of course, that you might have re-evaluate the image of Luke Skywalker from the OT, as that image turned out to be incomplete. On the other hand, if you don't want re-evaluate the character, maybe it's safer not to watch any material featuring Luke beyond the OT.

3 minutes ago, penpenpen said:

I think it's important not get too stuck in the head canon you've built up about a character when filling in the gaps in the old movies.

That right there is probably the biggest driver of the folks that hated Luke in TLJ, is that they'd ceased viewing him as an individual character and instead took to viewing him as an icon.

Granted, a part of that likely lies with the Legends material that got published in the 90's, where Luke could seem to do no wrong and while not quite the Showy Invincible Hero was pretty darn close, with most authors of the time treating the Force as their magical solution to have Luke pull the story out of whatever corner the author had painted themselves into. Which of course made it difficult when the Lucasfilm wanted to move away from the Yavin Trio as the heroes of the books and onto the next generation of Skywalkers, as Luke had been built up to be this amazing hero that had to willingly (and for increasingly daft reasons) remove himself from conflicts just so that he didn't completely overshadow the younger heroes.

By featuring a Luke who has lost hope, the movie shows us how critical hope is to Luke's character. Rey reminds him who he is, and he gets back into the fight.

Let’s also not forget a couple of things—

Despite what he may have been told by Obi-Wan and Yoda, Luke was not really trained as a Jedi. He was given a crash course in just enough to be a blunt instrument turned loose in the direction of Palpatine and Vader.

He has also shown a pattern of impulsive behavior in the OT. That momentary consideration of killing Ben fits right in there.

Once that blew up in his face, he followed the example set by his mentors following major failures: he ran away and hid.

2 hours ago, Donovan Morningfire said:

iHere's the problem with that outlook...

We have no idea what else happened to Luke from where we last saw him in RotJ, having won but in the process lost his father whom he'd been determined to save for half the film to when we see him again in TLJ.

Quite true, but if there are gaps in the character's development that's the storyteller's fault, not mine. It is not our job to use our imagination to fill them in. The individual played by Mark Hamill was NOT Luke Skywalker (no fault of the actor). This Luke faces Kylo down and 1) Makes no attempt whatsoever to bring him around and 2) actually *mocks* his stupidity. Good lord- I am supposed to believe that this is an accurate characterization of Luke? That he treats his own blood this way?

HECK. NO.

Quote

But than again, it seems that nuanced characters aren't what some folks such as yourself wanted,

Well sir, I'm going to have to call bologna on that one. The entire movie was about the shock value of characters making internally inconsistent decisions. Nothing more. That is not "nuance."