hello

i am toying with porting the Rolemaster Setting of "Shadow World/Kulthea" to Genesys.

Rolemaster has some powerful magic items that multiply available mana points or allow a certain number of spell at certain levels to be cast for free each day.

this is a proposed magical implement for that

Magic Focus N; Cost: 1000*(N*N*N); Downgrades casting Difficulty by N to a minimum of 0, and any leftover are adding additional [A] to the final result.

feedback welcome

T

Given that spells cost Strain in Genesys, which are fairly similar to Spell Points in Rolemaster for this purpose...

A "Spell Multiplier" would simply be an item that grants you a reservoire of points you can cast spells from each day before suffering Strain. For example, a Minor Arcane Multiplier holds a number of points equal to the wearer's Intellect.

A "Spell Adder" would be a slightly different item that allowed a caster to cast a spell of a given difficulty or less one or more times per day. For example, a Minor Curse Adder allows you to cast an Average (two difficulty) Curse once per day without spending Strain to do so.

Don't forget there are also Stamina Potions in RoT for recovering spent strain (they work like painkillers). Those would be very helpful for mages.

10 hours ago, Cantriped said:

Given that spells cost Strain in Genesys, which are fairly similar to Spell Points in Rolemaster for this purpose...

A "Spell Multiplier" would simply be an item that grants you a reservoire of points you can cast spells from each day before suffering Strain. For example, a Minor Arcane Multiplier holds a number of points equal to the wearer's Intellect.

A "Spell Adder" would be a slightly different item that allowed a caster to cast a spell of a given difficulty or less one or more times per day. For example, a Minor Curse Adder allows you to cast an Average (two difficulty) Curse once per day without spending Strain to do so.

hmm .. a Rolemaster knowledgeable is here ? ... yes i know all that for 30 years -- also there are variation on edition and companion rules.

i dont want to port multipliers and adders functions one-on-one, but have something more generic that eases spellcasting and recover spent strain

T

I dont have much to add to your initial question, except to say I loved the Shadow World setting back in the day and I'm looking forward to seeing what you come up with for it.

6 hours ago, Terefang said:

hmm .. a Rolemaster knowledgeable is here ? ... yes i know all that for 30 years -- also there are variation on edition and companion rules.

i dont want to port multipliers and adders functions one-on-one, but have something more generic that eases spellcasting and recover spent strain

T

Just a little bit. I've played in a rolemaster campaign fairly recently, but mostly I'm just a quick study when it comes to games.

If you aren't looking to convert adders and multipliers, there isn't really all that much left to take from RM's mechanics. At least not from the edition I played.

17 hours ago, Terefang said:

Magic   Focus N; Cost: 1000*(N*N*N); Downgrades casting Difficulty  by N to a minimum  of 0, and any leftover are adding additional [A] to the final result. 

Regarding this quality: While it certainly eases the difficulty of casting, it does nothing for the mage's sustainability. Overall, "Magic Focus" is flavorless and horribly overpowered.

Between Genesys and RoT there are plenty of examples of magic implements that allow you to cast given spells more easily. I would suggest starting with those, and writing additional permutations based on their mechanics. But note how they only negate difficulty penalties from added effects (A Staff negates the difficulty added by the Range Effect), and you can only use one Implement (so that you cannot stack reductions infinitely). Magic Focus is broken exactly because it would allow a caster to reduce the sum difficulty of the spell... And the reason that is bad is that nobody else can do so for their checks. The versatility of magic is balanced against it's base checks being more difficult than using the appropriate mundane skills. For example, if crossing a river is an Average Athletics check, it's a Hard Magic check that costs ~2 strain. A magic check should never, ever, ever be a Simple (Zero Difficulty) check.

You mentioned wanting to recover Strain as well, so I'll focus on that for a moment. The Adder and Multiplier mechanics I described above would significantly improve a caster's sustainability, and I like the flavor of a 'runemage' with a collection of minor curse and augment adders; which they could potentially use with an Implement to cast more powerful spells through. Barring that, an alternative mechanic for Magic Focus would be to make is a Quality for the existing implements which reduces the strain cost of a given type of spell by 1 (Attack and Heal would obviously be the most sought after and expensive, Dispel and Utility the cheapest).

Attack Magic Focus An Implement with this quality reduces the strain cost of any Attack spell cast through it by 1 (to a minimum of 0).

Such a quality would allow a Staff-wielding mage to cast more attack spells (because of the reduced cost from the quality), more easily at range (the base Staff effect), and more powerfully (again, the base staff effect). RoT also has some superior materials you can combine with the aforementioned quality to make the Implement even better, if not overpowered.

10 hours ago, Terefang said:

hmm .. a Rolemaster knowledgeable is here ? ... yes i know all that for 30 years -- also there are variation on edition and companion rules.

i dont want to port multipliers and adders functions one-on-one, but have something more generic that eases spellcasting and recover spent strain

T

The implements in genesys and some talents make it easier. You could add superior or if you have terrinoth implement material of willow will add a automatic advantage to the roll always.

If you wanted to make it universal easier in your setting you could just go with each spell cost 1 strain instead of 2 and leave it at that.

I cannot stress enough how much good supplemental material there is for magic-users in Realms of Terrinoth. Stamina Potions, new Implements and Craftsmanships, Skills & Talents... etc.

The Magic Tome from Realms of Terrinoth effectively reduces the difficulty of a spell by 3, for $750. Of course it’s not as flexible as the item listed, but it’s very cheap!

Willow Craftsmanship is excellent for recovering strain, adding Advantage is a more flexible solution than simply reducing the strain of casting

3 hours ago, Richardbuxton said:

The  Magic Tome from Realms of Terrinoth effectively reduces the difficulty  of a  spell by 3, for $750. Of course it’s not as flexible as the item listed, but it’s very  cheap   

"Effectively" yes, but not actually. At least not in the same very broken way as "Magic Focus" does above. An Implement generally only 'negates added difficulty', and only from specific added effects. Even with a Tome, the minimum Difficulty of a basic Augment is still Average (2 dice)... even though the tome makes Augment + Range + Haste + Swift also Average (2 dice).

Magic Focus 3 (27,000) would reduce Augment to Simple (no dice), and Augment + Range + Haste + Swift to Average (2 dice). Nobody should be able to produce Attacks that essentially cannot miss, and a zero-difficulty attack spell is horrifyingly easy with a Magic Focus.

Which is just cruely unfair to everybody else, who don't get to convert wealth into automatic success.

In the interest of fairness... I did find two Implements in RoT that actually reduce the sum difficulty of the given spell(s), as opposed to adding free effects (negating increased difficulty). The Rune of Collection (which reduces both difficulty and strain cost of all Rune spells by 1), and the Rune of Misery (which reduces the difficulty of any Rune Curse by two). They're both priceless artifacts subject to GM fiat, which is appropriate because they're game-breakingly good even if you do have to invest in a specific magic skill to use them.

1 hour ago, Cantriped said:

They're both priceless artifacts subject to GM fiat, which is appropriate because they're game-breakingly good even if you do have to invest in a specific magic skill to use them.

One of "Shadow Worlds" Arch Nemesis (Lorgalis) is Level 70, and has a x8 Point Multiplier (giving 1700 Points) plus a 100th level charged spell adder. casting 360 fireballs (5th) a day is nasty.
Or he may opt to rampage with high level spells (50th) -- to fire up to 70x36 (=2520) fireballs a day.

and a Magic Focus 8 priced at 512000 gold is still priceless, as is a holy hand-grenade.

I'm not sure what your arch nemesis example is supposed to demonstrate. A comperable item would be one that let a spellcaster cast 4 spells before suffering 1 strain (aka eight times as many spells as he normally would be able too).

Really though, if you want to give your arch-nemesis infinite fireballs, just give them something like the Blasting Rune (RoT 118) instead. Which is to say an Implement that can be used as a magic weapon (without spending strain).

Magic Focus 8 doesn't do anything like that. It is a lot more like adding a +800% to your check in Rolemaster! It gurantees success by such a degree that it is mind boggling. Award it at thy peril; no amount of money will prevent it from breaking your game.

I would go a step further, because that’s still limited by the action economy. If you want Uber powerful magic you need to change the scale of things. How about an item that makes all your spells function at vehicle scale. Or one that makes Blast extend to Medium range, with an empowered version extending to Long.

Basicly look for ways to do more with an Average Difficulty Spell rather than making a normal spell trivial to cast.

Having a creature use Planetary Scale values (10:1 over personal scale) is a great way to make sure your Arch-Nemesis is supremely powerful enough to take on an experienced group. Of course even a weak mage's Planetary Fireball would be dealing 30 or more points of personal damage, so that is something to be wary of in encounter design.

Perhaps it’s a 5x multiplier, but the Barrier Spell will be doing a lot more too, and conjured weapons and armour will be much more powerful

good points (both @Richardbuxton and @Cantriped )

i havent considered going the scale path ... what would be the right references in CRB and ROT ?

i also underestimated the cost of the spell multiplier, a x2 multiplier from SW would be $471000 in Genesys

There’s nothing that really has this level of power in either book, not even the Magic Items in RoT.

For the price I would probably follow ffg’s lead and not even bother giving it one, it’s simply too valuable to put a price upon and instead requires an extensive amount of adventuring and effort from the PC to get it.

1 hour ago, Richardbuxton said:

For the price I would probably follow ffg’s lead and not even bother giving it one, it’s simply too valuable to put a price upon and instead requires an extensive amount of adventuring and effort from the PC to get it.

eg killing Lorgalis *LOL*

Exactly ?

4 hours ago, Terefang said:

good points (both @Richardbuxton and @Cantriped )

i havent considered going the scale path ... what would be the right references in CRB and ROT ?

i also underestimated the cost of the spell multiplier, a x2 multiplier from SW would be $471000 in Genesys

Planetary Scale versus Personal Scale (GCRB 224). There are also some Item qualities that interact with it.

Anything over a quarter-million can probably just be left as 'priceless'. That is what games like D&D do. We're talking about sums of money that can break or significantly change campaigns. One issue I fear is that when you price something, players will make the reasonable assumption that the item is available on the open market, or that it can be crafted given sufficient materials.

On the topic of scale; for +2 difficulty I allow my players to have their spells start working on the vehicle scale. But this only affects buildings and vehicles, and can't be used to target a regular NPC or player. My game is a fantasy pirate theme so the casters actually able to launch fireballs at other ships, or buff their own ship is a core part of the setting.

There are also a lot of custom talents, abilities, and magic implements that further affect this mechanic. But the default is +2 purple. This gives me a wide birth to balance with.

2 hours ago, Cantriped said:

Anything over a quarter-million can probably just be left as 'priceless'.

hmm ... for remark: 1 RM/SW gold piece is worth $1500 in Genesys using comparative economics,
whereas the smallest trade value -- 1 iron piece -- would scale in Genesys to ¢1,5 which is quite reasonable.

since Genesys $ is for simplicity based on real world scale, yes it is true that "Joe Average" and "Max Mustermann"
might not be able to afford and "Average Hero Mage #1" might not shell out such a sum easiely,
but someone of Benzos/Musk/Gates scale can.

on the other side "Elderly Hero Mage #2" might create such items taking some years sponsored by the above.

3 hours ago, Cantriped said:

One issue I fear is that when you price something, players will make the reasonable assumption that the item is available on the open market,

yes, rarity is a different beast, so i did not specify one in the original post, as such items may usually be custom made and attuned to its recipient for maximum effect.

3 hours ago, Cantriped said:

or that it can be crafted given sufficient materials.

That it can be crafted given sufficient materials, funding and time.

Rolemasters Alchemy/Treasure Companion give a base time requirement for a generic x2 multiplier at 18 weeks plus 1 week per spell level/slot/equivalent used in the process.

since multipliers are constant items (Work Constant Item -- 30th level alchemy spell) that would make it 48 weeks if the construction process is known to the alchemist.

if the construction process is unknown to the alchemist add another 3 years and 9 months of formula research for the "x2 multiplier" effect.

from a GMs view, if the players have enough time and resources you can surely narrate the story with a few rolls

if "Demonic Adversary #10" arrives within one game week, the players might be out of luck.

3 hours ago, Terefang said:

someone  of Benzos/Musk  /Gates scale

Someone of that scale isn't appropriate in a typical fantasy adventures. They don't have to solve their problems personally (they can just hire PCs to do that), and they wouldn't have much need for or interest in personal gear either, since an army can't share a single sword (which is why they let the PCs keep what they find despite its 'market value'). They are above such petty concerns as monetary costs measured in units useful to a typical adventurer. Instead their problems would be more abstract, and their obstacles & solutions more often social than practical.

Genesys' doesn't really get into Kingdom Building as a campaign type. It assumes we're talking about playing solitary adventurers with little more than the clothes on their backs and a few allies at their side. Which is why things that require vast sums of wealth are typically left unspecified. If you can afford it, the campaign is probably already over.

3 hours ago, Terefang said:

Rolemasters   Alchemy/Treasure  Compani  o  n...

You can use those rules if you like... But I was assuming you were planning to run this conversion in Genesys; its crafting rules are fairly relaxed if I recall correctly. Those rules are harsh enough that they're effectively a prohibition on player's crafting anything magical. I've never heard of an adventure or campaign giving that much usable downtime.

On 9/29/2018 at 9:17 PM, Cantriped said:

You can use those rules if you like... But I was assuming you were planning to run this conversion in Genesys; its crafting rules are fairly relaxed if I recall correctly. Those rules are harsh enough that they're effectively a prohibition on player's crafting anything magical. I've never heard of an adventure or campaign giving that much usable downtime.

i wont but it gives good examples ... the problem is more adapting magical items fitting them more into Genesys system but keeping the flavor.

so i wont replace a spell multiplier (energy focus) with a magic tome (practical shortcuts in spell casting).

thx all