...hence why that step is called “Maneuver ship.”

Just now, Oberron said:

Now you are inferring that there is a check step for not overlapping a ship. Where does it say that?

Huh?

5 minutes ago, Wh0isTh3D0ct0r said:

Yes. As soon as you do step 1 of the maneuver.

Let's look at the rules reference, page 13:

A ship can execute a maneuver by resolving the following steps in order:

1. Maneuver Ship: During this step, the ship moves using the matching template. Take the template that matches the maneuver from the supply. Set the template between the ship’s front guides (so that it is flush against the base). Pick up and place the ship at the opposite end of the template and slide the rear guides of the ship into the template. Return the template to the supply.
2. Check Difficulty: During this step, if the maneuver is red, the ship gains one stress token; if the maneuver is blue, the ship removes one stress token.

Exectuing means doing both.

So no, step 1 is not enough.

2 minutes ago, Wh0isTh3D0ct0r said:

...hence why that step is called “Maneuver ship.”

Which is not in lando's ability.

Where in the rules does it say

Quote

“After” in this case means as soon as you have placed your ship at the other end of template. Did it overlap another ship? Yes: back up the ship because it was partial. No: leave the ship at the other end of the template and “fully executed maneuver” triggering conditions immediately apply.

is part of executing a maneuver? Where is the "not overlapping a ship" step?

Let's forget "fully" and focus on"execute." I think this will help.

"After you execute a maneuver..." So we look keep Maneuver in the Rules Reference.

"A ship can EXECUTE a maneuver by resolving the following steps in order:

1. Maneuver Ship: During this step, the ship moves using the matching template.
2. Check Difficulty: During this step, if the maneuver is red, the ship gains one stress token; if the maneuver is blue, the ship removes one stress token."

Note that to execute a maneuver, you have to go through both steps, meaning Lando's ability triggers after step 2.

Now, if Lando's ability read, "After the maneuver ship step, if you did not overlap another ship, you may perform an action", then your proposed interaction would work.

(Man, ninja'd so hard. Writing on a phone is s l o w !)

So you’re saying that you would move a ship, place it on top of another ship, check the difficulty, and only THEN move the ship backward?

1 minute ago, Wh0isTh3D0ct0r said:

So you’re saying that you would move a ship, place it on top of another ship, check the difficulty, and only THEN move the ship backward?

No because we have an exception for overlapping a ship, and what to do about it as well as when in when you execute the maneuver. Where is the "not overlapping a ship" step?

The problem here is not that I disagree with your interpretation of how Lando’s ability SHOULD work; the problem is that the card and the Rules Reference use the terms “maneuver,” “execute,” and “fully” too flippantly.

Just now, Oberron said:

No because we have an exception for overlapping a ship, and what to do about it as well as when in when you execute the maneuver. Where is the "not overlapping a ship" step?

The “not overlapping a ship” step is on page 14.

Just now, Wh0isTh3D0ct0r said:

The problem here is not that I disagree with your interpretation of how Lando’s ability SHOULD work; the problem is that the card and the Rules Reference use the terms “maneuver,” “execute,” and “fully” too flippantly.

Not at all, you are just combining two different defined terms "fully" and "maneuver".

Just now, Wh0isTh3D0ct0r said:

The “not overlapping a ship” step is on page 14.

Quote the "not overlapping a ship" step then.

Just now, Wh0isTh3D0ct0r said:

So you’re saying that you would move a ship, place it on top of another ship, check the difficulty, and only THEN move the ship backward?

The rules tell us what to do:

p.13 "While executing a maneuver, if a ship would be placed at the end of the template on top of another object, it has overlapped that object." -> While means not after.

p.14 "While a ship executes a maneuver or otherwise moves, it overlaps an object if the ship’s final position would physically be on top of an object." and later "A ship fully executes a maneuver if it does not overlap a ship. If a ship executes a maneuver and overlaps a ship, it must partially execute that maneuver by performing the following steps"

What happens is this:

1. You move a ship, step 1 of the maneuver. Oh no, it overlaps and I can't fully execute the maneuver because it overlaps. Now I will partially execute the maneuver. Rules, help me!

2. "Move the ship backward along the template until it is no longer on top of any other ships. While doing so, adjust the position of the ship so that the hashmarks in the middle of both sets of guides remains centered over the line down the middle of the template." Ok, easy. I moved it backwards. What now?

3. "Once the ship is no longer on top of any other ship, place it so that it is touching the last ship it backed over. This may result in the ship returning to its starting position."

4. Now it has been moved and I can check the difficulty, step 2 of the maneuver. How do I know? There's this: "Even if a ship partially executes a maneuver, it is still treated as having executed a maneuver of the indicated speed, bearing, and difficulty."

5. Oh wait, there is more (and the rules reference here is indeed not perfect!): "The ship skips its Perform Action step."

2 minutes ago, Oberron said:

Not at all, you are just combining two different defined terms "fully" and "maneuver".

Quote the "not overlapping a ship" step then.

Already done. Multiple times by multiple people.

18 minutes ago, Wh0isTh3D0ct0r said:

So you’re saying that you would move a ship, place it on top of another ship, check the difficulty, and only THEN move the ship backward?

Nope, because the section on Overlapping does not contain the full rules for executing a maneuver...because writing rules documents is hard! They really should have included the "Check difficulty" step in the "Overlap" section, but they didn't. But they do include:

"3. The ship skips its Perform Action step"

Before we get there, however, we have to reference the rules for Executing a Maneuver, which tells us that we check pilot stress before the perform action step, which is corroborated here:

"Activation Phase

1. Reveal Dial: The ship's assigned dial is REVEALED by flipping it faceup and then placing it next to its ship card.
2. Execute Maneuver: The ship executes the maneuver selected on the revealed dial.
3. Perform Action: The ship may perform one action."

Edit: and they also mention in the Overlap section "

• Even if a ship partially executes a maneuver, it is still treated as having executed a maneuver of the indicated speed, bearing, and difficulty."

They just failed to put it in a meaningful place for determining timing. They make you go to the Maneuver section for that.

Just now, Wh0isTh3D0ct0r said:

Already done. Multiple times by multiple people.

So far nothing has been posted about a step that says "did you not overlap a ship?" or anything similar in step form. Repost it for me if you think it has been.

“A ship fully executes a maneuver if it does not overlap a ship.”

Lando didn’t overlap another ship, so the triggering condition applies immediately.

“After: The effect resolves immediately following the timing specified.”

Good night. Going to bed. Peace out.

1 minute ago, Wh0isTh3D0ct0r said:

“A ship fully executes a maneuver if it does not overlap a ship.”

Lando didn’t overlap another ship, so the triggering condition applies immediately.

“After: The effect resolves immediately following the timing specified.”

After executing the maneuver. Not after executing the first part of the rules for a maneuver. You can't split the rules as you want because it suits you.

You conveniently ignored that executing means both: moving AND checking stress. Your attempt to deflect backfired because the rules for partially executing (meaning: bumping) use while. Lando does not. He says after executing. And this means after the whole executing, and that includes checking for stress.

6 minutes ago, Wh0isTh3D0ct0r said:

“A ship fully executes a maneuver if it does not overlap a ship.”

Lando didn’t overlap another ship, so the triggering condition applies immediately.

“After: The effect resolves immediately following the timing specified.”

The first line you have quoted is not a step so there is nothing to trigger off from "not overlap a ship" with lando's ability, execute a maneuver on the other hand does have steps which has two that must be done, in order for it to execute.

The real question is why you don’t just take Engine Upgrade on Lando

1 hour ago, Parakitor said:

Nope, because the section on Overlapping does not contain the full rules for executing a maneuver...because writing rules documents is hard! They really should have included the "Check difficulty" step in the "Overlap" section, but they didn't. But they do include:

"3. The ship skips its Perform Action step"

Before we get there, however, we have to reference the rules for Executing a Maneuver, which tells us that we check pilot stress before the perform action step, which is corroborated here:

"Activation Phase

1. Reveal Dial: The ship's assigned dial is REVEALED by flipping it faceup and then placing it next to its ship card.
2. Execute Maneuver: The ship executes the maneuver selected on the revealed dial.
3. Perform Action: The ship may perform one action."

Edit: and they also mention in the Overlap section "

• Even if a ship partially executes a maneuver, it is still treated as having executed a maneuver of the indicated speed, bearing, and difficulty."

They just failed to put it in a meaningful place for determining timing. They make you go to the Maneuver section for that.

This.

There are three requirements for Lando to trigger

• Executed a manoeuvre - which requires you to have done the 'manoeuvre ship' and 'check difficulty' steps, as per page 13.
• The manoeuvre was blue - largely 'did you reveal a blue manoeuvre' but there are obviously effects which increase or decrease the difficult (e.g. Nien Nunb)
• The manoeuvre was fully executed - which means 'you didn't overlap another ship' as per the overlap rules.

So hitting a rock and boosting off it is fine. But not removing the stress from the red boost afterwards, because it comes after the check stress step

X-Wing rules arguments are one of the nines circles of he1l.

4 hours ago, Wh0isTh3D0ct0r said:

Yes. As soon as you do step 1 of the maneuver.

“A ship can execUte a maneuver by resolving the following steps in order:”

I guess I can attack by just rolling attack dice and not waiting for defense dice then. Seems legit.

3 hours ago, SOTL said:

X-Wing rules arguments are one of the nines circles of he1l.

If there was a "love" icon I would have selected it. Incorrect interpretations, then the bajillion arguments that follow them is insane.

Checking stress is part of doing a manoeuvre. My vote goes with you cannot remove the stress. My vote also goes with Yeafire so to remove all arguments.

5 hours ago, Wh0isTh3D0ct0r said:

“A ship fully executes a maneuver if it does not overlap a ship.”

Lando didn’t overlap another ship, so the triggering condition applies immediately.

“After: The effect resolves immediately following the timing specified.”

This is incorrect, because he does not trigger until after you execute a maneuver, and the check stress step is explicitly part of executing a maneuver, and thus must happen before Lando's ability kicks in.

The problem is that you are defining a maneuver as being "executed" once the ship has reached the end of its template or a bump has been resolved. While this is somewhat intuitive, it is not how executing a maneuver is defined in the rules reference, which clearly spells out a two-step process for executing a maneuver:

1. Move your ship. Did it bump? Yes: the maneuver will be considered partially executed; resolve accordingly. No: The maneuver will be considered fully executed.
2. Check stress and add/remove accordingly.

Because that second step is defined within the RRG as a part of executing a maneuver, it must necessarily happen before you can resolve any abilities that occur after a maneuver is executed. To argue otherwise is to argue that a ship has executed a maneuver before reaching the end of the Execute Maneuver step, and at that point we are really getting into the weeds trying to make an ability work the way we think it should work instead of the way it actually works.

So to sum up, in your scenario, Lando gets a shot despite landing on a rock because he can boost off it. He winds up with one piddly meaningless stress token (which he'll remove next round anyway, since Lando always wants to be rolling with blue maneuvers, and it means nothing this round since the perform action step will be skipped regardless). Still seems really really REALLY really strong to me.

4 hours ago, SOTL said:

X-Wing rules arguments with people that are super bad at being able to comprehend meanings of words are one of the nines circles of he1l.

ftfy