As long as it still makes list legality mistakes I'll not trust it. And it still does.

And even then it's not as user friendly as the 3p alternatives.

20 minutes ago, heychadwick said:

Because maybe FFG isn't used to software developing. It can be pretty tricky when working with developers. I have a soft spot for anyone that has to get anything done with them, especially on a schedule. I think FFG set up the deadline for when things can happen and the software developers are just delayed.

=====

I ignored the app for a couple of weeks and then tried it for a solid week. It was a bit clunky, too zoomed in, and had a few issues, but was workable. Then, when I tried to look things up or see a ship dial, I was utterly frustrated.

YASB is fine for a browser, but I like my phone apps with all the info. I find I prefer LaunchBayNext for my list building.

I don't think that is a valid excuse.

FFG needed an app for the Sept release.

They should have had someone on the developers night and day.

They should have had early releases so they could play test the app.

They should have had the app ready the moment they announced 2.0 (it would have made balancing ships and point cost allotment easier and with less mistakes)

They should have looked at the 3rd party efforts for 1.0 and seen what is most popular. Bought the app and built it from there. There is no reason to make an app different for difference sake.

I’ve been having a ton of fun building lists with Launch Bay, even while I was thousands of feet up in the air for 9 hours. I haven’t given FFG’s dumpster fire a third look since v1.2 came out and have been happier for it.

10 minutes ago, robert t said:

I don't think that is a valid excuse.

FFG needed an app for the Sept release.

They should have had someone on the developers night and day.

They should have had early releases so they could play test the app.

They should have had the app ready the moment they announced 2.0 (it would have made balancing ships and point cost allotment easier and with less mistakes)

They should have looked at the 3rd party efforts for 1.0 and seen what is most popular. Bought the app and built it from there. There is no reason to make an app different for difference sake.

Yeah, I'm not saying it's an excuse. I'm just saying that's probably how it is.

Should things have worked on day 1? Sure. Did it? No. I think I know why.

A lot of the free list builders out there are done by one person. I can say that one person is a lot easier to make something right than a team of people. Also, FFG is probably going out to bid on things. They went not with one person, who probably does it for a living and did something for a hobby in their spare time. They went with a real company that put in a bid for it. They probably didn't go with the lowest bidder, but they went with the most cost effective option that seemed reasonable. FFG wanted it to look a bit better than YASB or some of the other apps. It has more bells and whistles. They wanted to build a platform that will do more than just build lists. This is more complicated than just what YASB or Launch Bay Next does. Developers hit snags. They are notorious for hitting delays. Software Dev is not really something you can schedule. If you hit a snag, you have to figure out why. That can take time. It's not easy to set to a time frame.

I'm sure FFG had someone working on it as soon as they had 2nd Ed developed enough to really work on it. I'm sure that there were things FFG was still working on what they needed about the game a couple of weeks before it was sent to printers. They probably had to wait a bit before they had someone working on it, too. I am sure they talked to the devs and asked for a time frame, baked in some time for errors, and went to town. Except.....the devs ran into more snags than they expected. It took longer than expected. Here we are.

Once again, this is not an excuse. It's just the reality of the situation. Personally, I don't think this makes any larger comment on 2nd Ed or FFG or anything about the game, other than FFG has not dealt with developers as much as some people. Is the app really required to play the game? No, there is the PDF and 3rd party apps. Will it eventually be good enough? I'm sure. Can I just use third party apps in the meantime? Yeah.

I have used this one:

https://plus.google.com/communities/108260866778071859673

Xwing squads designer. Used it in 1.0 and now ported over to 2.0. Easy to use.

51 minutes ago, Sasajak said:

I’m now on Launch Bay Next (https://itunes.apple.com/gb/app/launch-bay-next/id1422488966?mt=8) which has just updated to include an iPad version. It’s like night and day. Simple and easy to use. Constantly being improved.

I will say that the swipe left/right is really frustrating to me. I'm not young enough to know Tinder and maybe it's my "edge" phone that makes it weird. I have the darndest time trying to swipe left and right in the app. I wish there was just a freakin button.

I still can't see why "hitting snags" would delay the launch of a fully functioning app when 3rd party developers did it with less time and capital.

Making something "prettier/more functional" should have come after they had a stable and functioning app. not before.

The developer takes some of the blame but FFG has to be held accountable for their oversight and negligence in this matter.

They dropped the ball big time. Those three guys should have been yelling at the top of their lungs "where's my app!"

Thankfully, I have all I need to continue to play x-wing with the core and kits.

I will not put any more money into this system as FFG has lost my trust.

PDF's are a last ditch solution not an answer to this mess.

4 hours ago, robert t said:

I still can't see why "hitting snags" would delay the launch of a fully functioning app when 3rd party developers did it with less time and capital.

Making something "prettier/more functional" should have come after they had a stable and functioning app. not before.

The developer takes some of the blame but FFG has to be held accountable for their oversight and negligence in this matter.

They dropped the ball big time. Those three guys should have been yelling at the top of their lungs "where's my app!"

Thankfully, I have all I need to continue to play x-wing with the core and kits.

I will not put any more money into this system as FFG has lost my trust.

PDF's are a last ditch solution not an answer to this mess.

You're forgetting that a lot of the 3rd party apps had significant bugs and mistakes on release as well... We just forgive them easier since they aren't FFG. The expectations weren't as high. YASB2.0 still has a few glitches here and there and there are typos haunting LaunchBayNext.

And it's not as though any of us are saying FFG should be excused of fault, we're simply putting a dose of reality into our response and avoiding hyperbolic pitchfork parties.

Heh, yes maybe so LagJenson but I would guess that all of the 3rd party apps were built by one man bands and not by a team of developers.

It's garbage!! I use Launch Bay Next on my phone!

It's a great app...but I do miss Starstastics!

The app don't show squad points on my phone. Can't get the app in English since I registered. Not super user-friendly. I still use YASB. It's not a big issue to me as the web app work and I think they will improve it a lot so I just have the be patient.

2 minutes ago, william1134 said:

Heh, yes maybe so LagJenson but I would guess that all of the 3rd party apps were built by one man bands and not by a team of developers.

Does that change the response? FFG and whoever they worked with flubbed it up and didn't live up to the expectations. Whether it's a one man show or the population of a small country developing the software, the results are the same.

Disappointment is a valid response. Rage seldom is.

(browser/web app) - it's pretty working fine for me.

Even predator is showing up in second edition format now.

36 minutes ago, robert t said:

I still can't see why "hitting snags" would delay the launch of a fully functioning app when 3rd party developers did it with less time and capital.

Making something "prettier/more functional" should have come after they had a stable and functioning app. not before.

The developer takes some of the blame but FFG has to be held accountable for their oversight and negligence in this matter.

They dropped the ball big time. Those three guys should have been yelling at the top of their lungs "where's my app!"

Thankfully, I have all I need to continue to play x-wing with the core and kits.

I will not put any more money into this system as FFG has lost my trust.

PDF's are a last ditch solution not an answer to this mess.

Third parties are one guy doing it for something he loves. It's also quite possible that the one guy is actually a lot better than the company. He does have a regular job, though, and FFG can't just hire him.

Also, it's a lot more than just making it "prettier". The app has to handle a lot of different modes and the option to change things significantly as they progress. It has to have a more robust menu option and coding behind it to make it work. We don't even know the full extent of all the things they want it to do. Have missions or other items? Lots of different lists built for events? There is a lot behind the menu that needs to happen to make things work. The more complicated the more issues can crop up. The FFG app is trying to be more than just a list builder. It's not fair to compare it to a very simple list builder that is only doing it one way. FFG needs to be able to have it run multiple list types as it goes. Also....a web page is different than an app. There is a lot more involved in making an app than YASB.

If you aren't buying FFG stuff or trusting FFG stuff due to the 3rd party developers....that's your prerogative, but misguided in my opinion. This dev company in eastern Europe doesn't really reflect how 2nd Ed has been developed or balanced. FFG is branching into something relatively new and not having the software part ready right away doesn't reflect the overall company. It's not like 2nd Ed is bad because some 3rd party is late with the software. It's still solid rules and better than 1.0.

I can understand frustration with things not being right, but is it really all doom and gloom? It makes me think when big game companies put out games, but there are a few issues for 2 weeks. They iron them out. Was that bad? Yes, but are you not going to buy the game that will be a good game for a year or two because the first 2 weeks had bugs? You can, but you are missing out.

23 minutes ago, heychadwick said:

This dev company in eastern Europe doesn't really reflect how 2nd Ed has been developed or balanced.

It does however reflect how much effort (AKA money) FFG has put into what's supposed to be an integral part of 2nd edition.

Also, some of the official comments seemed surprised at the issues. Did nobody at FFG check the app before release?

1 minute ago, LordBlades said:

It does however reflect how much effort (AKA money) FFG has put into what's supposed to be an integral part of 2nd edition.

Also, some of the official comments seemed surprised at the issues. Did nobody at FFG check the app before release?

I dunno. No matter who the dev is, there will be delays. It's not really a matter you can throw money at. I've seen it at very large and rich companies.

Also, software development is very....last minute. I'm sure FFG didn't get to see it much before we did. When they saw it, FFG had the decision to delay release of the app or put it out there with how it was at the time. There is blow back for both options. Which is better? Depends. Sometimes it's better one way. Sometimes the other. Some people respond better one way vs. the other, as well.

So I remember a thread asking for an official app back before 2.0 was announced.

I remember getting told i was wrong for thinking that an official squad builder would be bad because ffg wouldn't put the time and money into it.

Feeling pretty vindicated now.

okay, I see your points.

However, 3rd parties had less time and information available to them and yet did what FFG app isn't doing.

If FFG had just started with a list building app and then, over time, added more features, all would be good.

I don't think hiring a 3rd party developer was what I suggested. Buying his design and using it as a foundation and building on it.

I'm not trusting FFG because of their track record with 2.0. It has nothing t do with 3rd party developers.

FFG has delved into apps with other products before so this is not something new.

Rage is too strong a word here, frustration and being pissed off about their mishandled launch is more like it. Now, if I don't get my T-65 damage deck and get the response some Aussies are getting, then rage would be appropriate.

So, if FFG had built a list builder and said "we are adding new features/functionality as time goes on" then a lot of their troubles would have been for naught.

Look at it this way, if 2.0 was actually 1.0 in the sense of it being a new product never seen before, how much of a future would the game have with such a shoddy release?

33 minutes ago, heychadwick said:

Third parties are one guy doing it for something he loves. It's also quite possible that the one guy is actually a lot better than the company. He does have a regular job, though, and FFG can't just hire him.

Also, it's a lot more than just making it "prettier". The app has to handle a lot of different modes and the option to change things significantly as they progress. It has to have a more robust menu option and coding behind it to make it work. We don't even know the full extent of all the things they want it to do. Have missions or other items? Lots of different lists built for events? There is a lot behind the menu that needs to happen to make things work. The more complicated the more issues can crop up. The FFG app is trying to be more than just a list builder. It's not fair to compare it to a very simple list builder that is only doing it one way. FFG needs to be able to have it run multiple list types as it goes. Also....a web page is different than an app. There is a lot more involved in making an app than YASB.

If you aren't buying FFG stuff or trusting FFG stuff due to the 3rd party developers....that's your prerogative, but misguided in my opinion. This dev company in eastern Europe doesn't really reflect how 2nd Ed has been developed or balanced. FFG is branching into something relatively new and not having the software part ready right away doesn't reflect the overall company. It's not like 2nd Ed is bad because some 3rd party is late with the software. It's still solid rules and better than 1.0.

I can understand frustration with things not being right, but is it really all doom and gloom? It makes me think when big game companies put out games, but there are a few issues for 2 weeks. They iron them out. Was that bad? Yes, but are you not going to buy the game that will be a good game for a year or two because the first 2 weeks had bugs? You can, but you are missing out.

I can see your arguments, but the longtime community builders, such as myself, who are frustrated with the dumpster fire they have released may be missing out, if and when I decide to drop this game. But here’s what we are missing out on: a frustrating two weeks of trying to play a game that we used to like. Some of us actually liked building lists and playing the game, now it appears that it’s a game you have to play in order to play the game, some of us have more important things to do with our time than waste countless hours setting in front of a pdf or struggling with an app that honestly is not serviceable, some here claim it’s usable but for my experience I saved two squads I built after it had been out for a few days and my buddies said it was better. Since those two saved squads I haven’t been able to save a squad and that’s even if I’m able to add enough ships to get to 200 points. All those who are happy with the way the game is now, great, tonight is the night I run Star Wars games at my FLGS....my stuff will stay at home and I’ll find some other way to pass the time.

3 minutes ago, heychadwick said:

I dunno. No matter who the dev is, there will be delays. It's not really a matter you can throw money at. I've seen it at very large and rich companies.

There's a saying that holds very true regarding software development: good, cheap, fast, you get to choose two. Based on the result, FFG seems to have chosen fast and cheap.

Based on my experience, the cases where a top-notch team of programmers are given enough time and clear specifications, but still produce crap are exceedingly rare. As such, these guys aren't that good (FFGs fault for not hiring someone better) , or FFG hasn't given them either enough time or clarity (again FFGs fault).

8 minutes ago, robert t said:

If FFG had just started with a list building app and then, over time, added more features, all would be good.

...

I'm not trusting FFG because of their track record with 2.0. It has nothing t do with 3rd party developers.

...

Yeah, they maybe should've, but hindsight is 20-20. They would have to utterly rewrite an app that does more. Apps usually take a lot of frame work to build up from and then add in components. I think they were ambitious. Yes, FFG has done stuff with apps in other games, but nothing quite like this, from my understanding. I could be wrong, though. I also don't know if any of the other projects were tied to a deadline, either. I'm sure they learned a lot from this, though! ?

Umm.....what else has been bad about 2.0? I heard there were some shipping issues in some places that didn't have everything arrive on the release date. Were there more things wrong with 2.0?

18 minutes ago, Vykk Draygo said:

I can see your arguments, but the longtime community builders, such as myself, who are frustrated with the dumpster fire they have released may be missing out, if and when I decide to drop this game. But here’s what we are missing out on: a frustrating two weeks of trying to play a game that we used to like. Some of us actually liked building lists and playing the game, now it appears that it’s a game you have to play in order to play the game, some of us have more important things to do with our time than waste countless hours setting in front of a pdf or struggling with an app that honestly is not serviceable, some here claim it’s usable but for my experience I saved two squads I built after it had been out for a few days and my buddies said it was better. Since those two saved squads I haven’t been able to save a squad and that’s even if I’m able to add enough ships to get to 200 points. All those who are happy with the way the game is now, great, tonight is the night I run Star Wars games at my FLGS....my stuff will stay at home and I’ll find some other way to pass the time.

You talk like there aren't 3rd party apps or websites that can be used. Are there people out there that are only using the PDF?

10 minutes ago, heychadwick said:

?

Umm.....what else has been bad about 2.0? I heard there were some shipping issues in some places that didn't have everything arrive on the release date. Were there more things wrong with 2.0?

IMO most stuff but the game itself. Mainly the manner in which they communicate stuff:

- All wave 1 cards will be in the conversion kits...except some of them

- You won't need to buy multiple factions for cards...if you're willing to wait for several waves

-You'll get this awesome X-wing damage deck if you pre-order... Some of you will anyway

Also, there's very little time left to Coruscant and full squad building rules aren't out yet AFAIK.

4 minutes ago, LordBlades said:

IMO most stuff but the game itself. Mainly the manner in which they communicate stuff:

- All wave 1 cards will be in the conversion kits...except some of them

- You won't need to buy multiple factions for cards...if you're willing to wait for several waves

-You'll get this awesome X-wing damage deck if you pre-order... Some of you will anyway

Also, there's very little time left to Coruscant and full squad building rules aren't out yet AFAIK.

OK.....why do you want cards you can't use in your faction in the conversion kit? I think they said something like all the cards you need to play the game will be in your conversion kit. If Empire is the only faction that can use barrage missiles, why would they include it in other ones? I really feel like this complaint is unjust.

Also, the promo damage deck was a shipping issue, I thought? There were some issues that had Scum conversion kits and promo decks that came late. Was there something different?

Are those two issues really a big deal?

4 minutes ago, heychadwick said:

OK.....why do you want cards you can't use in your faction in the conversion kit? I think they said something like all the cards you need to play the game will be in your conversion kit. If Empire is the only faction that can use barrage missiles, why would they include it in other ones? I really feel like this complaint is unjust.

Also, the promo damage deck was a shipping issue, I thought? There were some issues that had Scum conversion kits and promo decks that came late. Was there something different?

Are those two issues really a big deal?

I'm talking about the cards you can use, like Maul for Rebels or Moldy Crow for Scum. Also, Composure and Agike Gunner missing from any conversion kit.

As for the damage decks, some stores posted they're not getting any more, even if they got less than what they pre-ordered.

Also, add to the issue list totally misaligned bases in conversion kits which FFG refuses to replace.