Hey all,

In the rule book, it says (page 20) "Each player can declare an attack (with an number of eligible attackers he controls) against each enemy with which he is engaged once each round."

If I am triggering Grimbeorn 's ability after defending with him, and the enemy is not destroyed, when it is my turn to attack enemies, may I attack the same enemy with other eligible characters? I figured this was an exception akin to quick strike. But I wanted to get the community to weigh in on this, because if it counts as my one attack on the enemy, I don't think the process is worth it.

Also, I figure his ability also works while sentinel defending, correct?

Thanks for your input.

It doesn't count. You may attack again later.

Like Wandalf say it does not count. You can attack it later on the turn (even with Grimbeorn if you could ready him).

You can trigger the response even if he block using sentinel, he will attack the enemy using his ability so he don't care about ranged :).

Thanks for your help/input. I figured I was safe with my play, but just had to make sure.

Follow up question. When using his effect on "immune to player card effects"... obviously the -2Defense must be excluded, but what about the attack itself? Does this fall into the category of creating a special attack window but a normal attack (akin to "quick strike"), or is it a special attack (akin to "hands upon the bow")? The former has been allowed against immune cards, but the latter doesn't, and it's all about "targeting". I'm split 50-50 on this one. On one hand, there does seem to be a targeting effect (declare an attacker "against THAT enemy"). On the other hand, it does seem reasonable that Grimbeorn just gets his own special attack window, and the target themselves are not really effected in any way.

This is one of the most controversial subjects of this game's rules. I hope the whole "declare an attack versus immune enemy" mess is laid to rest soon.

Anyway, I think no, you cannot use Grimbeorn against immune enemies. I'm not sure, though.

12 hours ago, player3351457 said:

Does this fall into the category of creating a special attack window but a normal attack (akin to "quick strike"), or is it a special attack (akin to "hands upon the bow")? The former has been allowed against immune cards, but the latter doesn't, and it's all about "targeting"  .

I was under the impression that the main reason why Hands Upon the Bow didn't work against immune enemies was that the developers didn't want anything to be able to attack immune enemies in the staging area, in which case, quick strike (which allows you to attack "any elegible target" i.e. following the normal rules for only attacking enemies engaged with you (or another player if the character is ranged) and Grimbeorn would both work against enemies (although this gets weird when Grimbeorn is defending against some boss enemy that is immune and attacks out of the staging area without being considered engaged to any player). Does such an enemy exist?

Grimbeorn's effect is very similar to the Anduril boon, but the latter explicitly uses the word "target" and doesn't work against immune enemies. If they wanted Grimbeorn to be under the same restriction of Anduril, I assume they would have used the same wording. It doesn't use the word "target" or "choose", merely allows Grimbeorn to declare an attack, and declaring an attack against an immune enemy is legal. I vote for it working.

1 hour ago, Seosaidh said:

(although this gets weird when Grimbeorn is defending against some boss enemy that is immune and attacks out of the staging area without being considered engaged to any player). Does such an enemy exist?

Smaug the Golden, off the top of my head. Though since he's indestructible anyway, it's pretty irrelevant.

I have an official ruling from caleb:

Grimbeorn cannot use his special attack against enemies with immunity.

5 hours ago, player3351457 said:

I have an official ruling from caleb:

Grimbeorn cannot use his special attack against enemies with immunity.

This is generally consistent with the extant ruling on Haldir:

On 10/2/2018 at 1:33 PM, Seosaidh said:

(although this gets weird when Grimbeorn is defending against some boss enemy that is immune and attacks out of the staging area without being considered engaged to any player). Does such an enemy exist?

The Thing in the Depths, the Witch-king, captain side from Battle on the Pelennor-fields (though he cannot take damage), the Mouth of Sauron, Rider of Mirkwood unless on stage 3, Dagnir with a low number of quests in the VD and Smaug the Golden.

The Nameless Fear cannot attack at all, it only deals direct damage and Bolg can only attack on stage 5, when he is considered to be engaged. Uglúk cannot attack on stage 1.

It is somewhat counterintuitive that Quick Strike would work against a consider-to-be-engaged immune enemy, but that Grimbeorn's counterattack against a considered-to-be-engaged immune enemy would not.

IMO they should've never ruled that Quick Strike works, for all the confusion it has caused over the years.

As it is, though, I just see it as stealthily reading, "make a time-displaced framework attack", allowing it to work, whereas nearly all* other effects that make an attack (including Grimbeorn) are not considered framework player attacks in the same sense.

[*: all right, Oath of Eorl too]

Quick Strike isn't making a time-displaced framework attack, though. You can quick strike an enemy and then declare a framework attack against that same enemy -- that can't happen with Oath of Eorl, which really does mess with the order. I can see drawing a bright line between using card effects to attack an immune enemy that you *can* attack with a framework attack and those you can't -- but that line should mean that attack-allowing card effects like Grimbeorn's should work on immune enemies you are considered to be engaged with. And Dunhere should get his bonus if he attacks alone against an immune enemy you are considered to be engaged with, if that enemy happens to be in the staging area.

"This does not count against your one attack declaration per enemy."

Like I said, I don't think they should've allowed it in the first place. Ah well.

Does Oath of Eorl work against immune enemies?

Since Oath of Eorl just moves the timing of your attacks, you should still be able to make the normal framework attack against an engaged immune enemy then. (If you couldn't, you wouldn't be able to attack it at all.)