2 minutes ago, theBitterFig said:

I just found a good example in game. Part of me doesn't even want to bring it up, since some folks will probably now start insisting that Major Rhymer doesn't work. 🙄

Extending the "Qi'ra doesn't work" argument, if this is the case than Rhymer cannot function. He'd be out of range with the relevant Torpedoes or Missiles, and couldn't begin the attack, so couldn't get to "while attacking."

But Rhymer clearly functions, so the above has to be wrong.

For Rhymer to function, determining legal targets (as well as legal attackers, for that matter) must be part of the entire process of "While Attacking."

Except a whole bunch of people insist Rhymer doesn't work so

1 hour ago, thespaceinvader said:

Except a whole bunch of people insist Rhymer doesn't work so

Fair enough.

But they generally insist he doesn't work at Range 0, for an entirely different reason, not that he doesn't work at Range 2-3.

Unless I've been missing something, that is...

Oh I see.

Rhymer works in that context because 'while attacking' starts well before you select which weapon to use, so his change in range can easily trigger.

2 hours ago, theBitterFig said:

I just found a good example in game. Part of me doesn't even want to bring it up, since some folks will probably now start insisting that Major Rhymer doesn't work. 🙄

Extending the "Qi'ra doesn't work" argument, if this is the case than Rhymer cannot function. He'd be out of range with the relevant Torpedoes or Missiles, and couldn't begin the attack, so couldn't get to "while attacking."

But Rhymer clearly functions, so the above has to be wrong.

For Rhymer to function, determining legal targets (as well as legal attackers, for that matter) must be part of the entire process of "While Attacking."

you check the range requirements for a weapon in step 1c while attacking - so are already attacking, when you do the range check.

But no where in the attacking step is there a check for asteroid, this is done way before you are attacking... You are never "while attacking" when you check if you can attack or not

3 minutes ago, muribundi said:

But no where in the attacking step is there a check for asteroid, this is done way before you are attacking... You are never "while attacking" when you check if you can attack or not

thats what im saying.

I'm pretty sure FFG have cleared up the whole "Ignoring while not ignoring" argument either in the newest RRG or even in the top of this forum.

While you have an active ability that allows you to ignore things, you ignore the effects, but no the presence.

Therefore, while you have Qi'ra locked on an obstacle, if you happen to have Trick Shot equipped, you can land on an asteroid (you have locked), fire, because you are ignoring the effects of said Asteroid (not being able to shoot), but still trigger Trick Shot if you measure range through the rock you are on, which disallows the defender from taking the +1 defense die because you are ignoring the effects of the Asteroid.

Likewise, when Rhymer selects a target, he can fire Advanced Proton Torpedoes at R0, and Proton Rockets at R3 because his ability says so. The only thing Rhymer can't use at R0 is his Primary Weapons.

"While you are attacking" begins the moment you activate at the correct Initiative step before you even declare weapons, targets, or any abilities that trigger during this step. Some abilities often depend on dice rolling, but, those are active rather than passive abilities.

In regards to Qi'Ra and her Lock ability, along with Rhymer and some others, the passive abilities are generally deemed as being "always on" as long as their conditions are met. I'm pretty sure I've seen something official about ignoring just effects, rather than presence.

30 minutes ago, Damo1701 said:

"While you are attacking" begins the moment you activate at the correct Initiative step before you even declare weapons, targets, or any abilities that trigger during this step.

i'm afraid, thats not correct:

qi'ras trigger is "while you perform attacks", which can never happen, when sitting on an asteroid.

6 hours ago, Cassan said:

i'm afraid, thats not correct:

qi'ras trigger is "while you perform attacks", which can never happen, when sitting on an asteroid.

Qi'ra by being an upgrade card with conditions, overrules the "no attacks on Asteroids" rule, as long as she is locking it.

Remember, cards can overrule the RRG at any time.

People are seriously overthinking something that has already been addressed by FFG.

If you are arguing against Qi'ra using the offensive aspect of her card ability, do you also claim the ship she is on should roll for damage/skip action step during the Activation Phase too?

Quite simply, FFG has ruled that she does work as specified, a ship carrying her, while locking the object she's on, can attack, as she ignores that obstacle's effects.

Show me the paragraph that says upgrades can't overrule the RRG.

The engagement rule specifie the timing

Engagement -> can you attack ?

Y -> you perform your attack

N if you land on an asteroid -> you cannot attack

Qi'ra text is clear : it happen when you're performing an attack, not when you engage.

Collision detector specifye you ignore the obstacle until the end of the round, so you also ignore it when you engage, so you can shoot.

If you wanna shoot shoot, with qi'ra or not while you land on an asteroid, there is the Outer Rim Pioneer pilot of the escape craft that wan also allow you to do it

33 minutes ago, Damo1701 said:

Remember, cards can overrule the RRG at any time. 

yeah i know that. in this case there is no overruling. see above.

Sorry, but this is incredibly funny.

Pay for an upgrade, then under your assertations, take other things, to allow you to do something that the original upgrade allows you to do.

Read the card again.

While you move AND perform attacks. Therefore, when it's your turn to attack, you are at 'While' for checking eligibility. If you are on the Asteroid you have locked, you may, ergo pick a weapon and attack.

1 minute ago, Damo1701 said:

when it's your turn to attack, you are at 'While' for checking eligibility.

no, you are not. when you engage you "may perform an attack". but you suffer the effect of the asteroid (because you are not moving or attacking, you are just engaging) so cannot perform the attack.

if you were not on an asteroid, you could attack and then trigger qi'ra to ignore the obstacle to deny the defender the extra green die.

Dudes, the rules have change since V1 reread them There is no "Attacking phase" anymore, but "engagement phase"

Engagement =/= attack

You first engage, that's the moment you check if your able to attack.

If you want to shoot each time with Qi'ra, take the Outer Rim Pionner pilot of the Escape Craft, he exist forthis purpose

I think if Qi'ra did allow attacking while overlapping an asteroid, it would be worded something like:

"You ignore obstacles that you are locking."

or

"While you move and engage, you ignore obstacles that you are locking."

or

"While you move, overlap, and perform attacks, you ignore obstacles that you are locking."

However, Qi'ra does not allow ignoring obstacles while at range 0 of them, which makes attacking impossible.

The entry in the Rules Reference for obstacles clarifies this:

Quote the RRG all you like, while ignoring the fact the RRG tells you, straight up, that cards can provide exceptions.

Qi'ra allows you to ignore the effects of the Asteroid you are locking. Simple, effective, and balanced.

What are the effects of Asteroids? Rolling for damage, skipping action step, and not being allowed to attack.

You are claiming the card only partially does this?

You don't require XYZ cards to do the job the upgrade card says you can do.

14 minutes ago, Damo1701 said:

QQi'ra allows you to ignore the effects of the Asteroid you are locking.

OK, 100% on this

When does Qi'ra ignore them ?

While moving -> it's in the activation phase.

While attacking -> it's in the engagement phase

What happen when you engage ? you check if you can attack.

When can't you attack : when you land on an asteroid.

Are you "while attacking" at when your ship engage ? nope you only engaging (that also the trugger for Han gunner btw)

There is a timing I thinks you still don't understand, cause it wasn't there in V1, where there was an "attack phase" that doesn't exist anymore,

Engagement > check if you can attack > attack or not

Qi'ra is active in the "attack or not" subphase of the engagement phase.

If you still don't understand, I don't know what we can do to explainthis to you

53 minutes ago, Grendelator said:

If you still don't understand, I don't know what we can do to explain this to you

I understand what the card allows you to do.

When you become the active ship in the Engagement phase, you check to see whether you can attack, which means you are attacking. Therefore, Qi'ra allows you to ignore the asteroid effects you may be in Range 0 of.

It's not like you are rerolling a reroll is it? Also, the question around ignoring obstacles but not ignoring obstacles has been answered by FFG. Until they change it, that's what to use.

Happy to repeat this to you as often as you want. Until FFG change their mind on that particular thing, Qi'ra works exactly the way her card says.

It's not even like I play Scum. But, I do face them.

54 minutes ago, Damo1701 said:

When you become the active ship in the Engagement phase, you check to see whether you can attack, which means you are attacking.

This is a good point to bring up. A ship does not become an attacker (or attacking) until it performs an attack. Therefore, checking to see whether you can attack does not mean you are attacking.

1 hour ago, Damo1701 said:

When you become the active ship in the Engagement phase, you check to see whether you can attack, which means you are attacking.

That's exactly where you're wrong

You can "perform an attack" (test on the card) only if you're able to attack, you MUST check before.

from the rule reference :

Engagement : When a ship engages, it may perform an attack.

Obstacle : Asteroid: The ship cannot perform attacks.

Attack : If a ship performs an attack, it becomes the attacker

That's the step you MUST follow

Not : Engagement -> Attack -> Obstacle

13 minutes ago, Hobologist said:

This is a good point to bring up. A ship does not become an attacker (or attacking) until it performs an attack. Therefore, checking to see whether you can attack does not mean you are attacking.

Which it can do while using Qi'ra's ability...

Because, you ignore the effects of the Asteroid, allowing you to roll the dice.

2 minutes ago, Damo1701 said:

Which it can do while using Qi'ra's ability...

Because, you ignore the effects of the Asteroid, allowing you to roll the dice.

Qi'ra's ability only works during two timing windows: moving and performing attacks.

Qi'ra is not able to ignore the asteroid after engaging but before attacking (when determining if an attack is possible) because the ability is not active at that time.

Hamper yourself that way, fine.

Don't try to hamper your opponents.

Fairly simple there.

If you can't see why it doesn't work, please explain to use your real mind of with the rules evidences.

My point is : When you engage, you check if you land on an asteroid, if so you can't perform an attack. Qi'Ra says when you "perform an attack ignore obstacles". Since you engage BEFORE being able to attack, you MUST check asteroid BEFORE Qi'Ra is active.

If your point is : When i'm engaging I'm performing an attack !

Or : when I moved trough an asteroid, I ignore the effect, so I ignore "Asteroid: The ship cannot perform attacks." effect.

For the first point, sorry to retell you this but you misread the engagement timing. This timing wasn't event in question in the Qi'Ra FAQ, cause there was no need, it's perfectly clear for everybody.

For the second point : it's not an effect of moving trough an asteroid (when Qi'Ra is active) but an effect of being at RO of it.

Engagement (that's when your ship become active) -> check for asteroid (that's when the rules says you can't perform an attack) -> perform an attack (that's when Qi'Ra is active).

If you really wan't to shoot when landed on an asteroid, it'll cost you 24 points

The effects of Qi'Ra are:

1 in the activation phase : you can move through an asteroid, don't roll a die and still be able to do your action

2 in the engagement phase : denie the obstruction extra die for you opponent, but still get yours from Trick shot or Solo

Which is still strong for a 2 point card. For this cost you're waiting for a PowerDash from V1 ? when you see other less usefull card a lot more expensive ?

Listen up boyz, if the lady in question were to grand you shots from asteroids, her wording would've been reduced to "you ignore obstacles that you are locking".

Between moving, engaging at R0 and rolling appropriate amount of dice during the attack, there are no more interactions between a ship and an obstacle. Obstacles are irrelevant during system and end phase. During activation they only interfere with you if you move over them. During engagement, they can only prevent you from attacking and/or generate additional dice for either side (obstruction/trick shot). That's all they've got for you.

So again, if Q'ira was not supposed to miss out on ANY of these interactions, she wouldn't have had available timings specified. We're **** sure she's not missing out when you skim over them, neither when your enemy is about to get that additional green.

By elimination, there's one thing left she has to miss out on.

Also, just like with the golden community rule "do what the cards say, don't do what the cards don't say" we should "read what's written in FAQ, don't read what's not written in FAQ". We've got one solving the dilemma - if I attack through a rock I ignore, do I miss out on my trickshot? And does my opponent get his extra green? And FFG explained: no and no. Which was stupid BTW IMHO, because from an interesting plus-and-minus effect "I'll be able to move through that rock, but then I won't be able to proc my ability, hmmm" we got a powerhouse combo. Still, that's what the FAQ was about.

Still, this same FAQ said you don't bypass the check-if-present rules and effects and preventing a ship from attacking is one of these effects, so why is this discussion actually going on?

Also, please take a look at the Poe vs. Debris Gambit thread where, after 6 pages, we have concluded that a "while you XYZ" timing cannot trigger before XYZ actually happens. You cannot be in the process of attacking without attacking, simple as that.