55 minutes ago, Geressen said:

but does he... have a bad feeling about this ?

I would!

This is a terrible idea.

One of Star Wars' greatest strengths, I think, is that it's held to a clear division between GOOD vs EVIL, with emphasis on resisting temptation and redemption. While this can feel a bit simplistic, it's actually pretty refreshing in entertainment given that since the 90s pretty much all tv and film has gone for the gritty, morally-gray, ethically ambiguous sort of moral relativism where the heroes are flawed ("live long enough to see yourself become the villain") and the the villains are sympathetic and relatable. Let Star Wars remain high fantasy with clear divisions between good and bad, as that actually allows it to tell the sort of high-fantasy kind of tales that really no one else wants to tell anymore. Being a gritty "mirror for reality" was never one of Star Wars' strengths or goals anyways, leave that to every other show and film. Frankly, I think TLJ already introduced enough of this moral ambiguity into the franchise, frankly.

Besides, we already have enough real world neo-Nazis and authoritarians cropping up across Western societies at the moment. Do we really want a film that goes "Oh hey, remember those authoritative facist space Nazis that were the paradigmatic example of "faceless evil?".... well turns out they had a lot of good ideas and they're actually pretty sympathetic and some of their ideas and motives make sense and a lot of them are good people and maybe there's good reasons to think aliens are inferior to humans. I mean, these alien planets aren't sending their best... they're sending their alien rapists and murders and thieves... we have to protect the galaxy! Humans first!"

I'd be for a film that explores the Empire, but only if it really hones in on the terrible horrors they leveled upon the Galaxy and reminded us all they were so terrible and why so many planets were willing to resist and form the Alliance. And that would be an odd sort of film, especially for a Franchise that is ultimately marketed toward children and oriented around selling kids' merchandise...

13 minutes ago, AllWingsStandyingBy said:

This is a terrible idea.

One of Star Wars' greatest strengths, I think, is that it's held to a clear division between GOOD vs EVIL, with emphasis on resisting temptation and redemption. While this can feel a bit simplistic, it's actually pretty refreshing in entertainment given that since the 90s pretty much all tv and film has gone for the gritty, morally-gray, ethically ambiguous sort of moral relativism where the heroes are flawed ("live long enough to see yourself become the villain") and the the villains are sympathetic and relatable. Let Star Wars remain high fantasy with clear divisions between good and bad, as that actually allows it to tell the sort of high-fantasy kind of tales that really no one else wants to tell anymore. Being a gritty "mirror for reality" was never one of Star Wars' strengths or goals anyways, leave that to every other show and film. Frankly, I think TLJ already introduced enough of this moral ambiguity into the franchise, frankly.

Besides, we already have enough real world neo-Nazis and authoritarians cropping up across Western societies at the moment. Do we really want a film that goes "Oh hey, remember those authoritative facist space Nazis that were the paradigmatic example of "faceless evil?".... well turns out they had a lot of good ideas and they're actually pretty sympathetic and some of their ideas and motives make sense and a lot of them are good people and maybe there's good reasons to think aliens are inferior to humans. I mean, these alien planets aren't sending their best... they're sending their alien rapists and murders and thieves... we have to protect the galaxy! Humans first!" 

I'd be for a film that explores the Empire, but only if it really hones in on the terrible horrors they leveled upon the Galaxy and reminded us all they were so terrible and why so many planets were willing to resist and form the Alliance. And that would be an odd sort of film, especially for a Franchise that is ultimately marketed toward children and oriented around selling kids' merchandise...

Well Rogue One has introduced the idea that not all of the Rebels were good people, so an Imperial film would be a counterpoint that not all Imperials were moustache twirling villains. Again the Emperor is an evil space wizard, but that doesn't mean that everyone is evil under his rule. In fact implying that every Imperial is evil paints a very poor portrait of the galaxy, considering the billions who serve the Empire voluntarily.

4 hours ago, Stasy said:

I'd rather talk about my daughter's bowl movements than politics.

15 minutes ago, Snipafist said:

so cute

/thread

22 minutes ago, Snipafist said:

I can't tell if that's a living teddy bear or a dog...

20 minutes ago, Piratical Moustache said:

Well Rogue One has introduced the idea that not all of the Rebels were good people, so an Imperial film would be a counterpoint that not all Imperials were moustache twirling villains. Again the Emperor is an evil space wizard, but that doesn't mean that everyone is evil under his rule. In fact implying that every Imperial is evil paints a very poor portrait of the galaxy, considering the billions who serve the Empire voluntarily.

Rogue One didn't introduce the idea that not all Rebels were good people. It leaned into it big time, but didn't introduce it. It's been a part of Star Wars since Ep4. Han is not a Rebel. He's a pirate, a smuggler, the guy that shoots first. He's not a hero, he's a rogue out for his own interests. Lando is also not a Rebel, he's a gambling business/con man, also out for himself.

It opens up difficult conversations though. Imperial human privilege. Accepting of slavery. Accepting of racism. If you make a heroic character that is part of the Empire, and remains a part of the empire, even if you don't touch on slavery/racism, you have that underlying theme in place. This is tricky. Hey look, this guy is super cool, and he's a bit of a rogue as he objects to Imperial ways on certain subjects....although he still does fully support them, remains a part of them, fights against the rebels, and doesn't outwardly oppose the slavery/racism that is part of the Empire in the SW universe.

The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing. The billions that serve or live in the Empire voluntarily are doing so out of privilege. Their lives benefit because other lives suffer...and they are willing to accept this as it brings privilege to their lives. Are they good people? They don't actively hate aliens themselves. They don't kill aliens, or use alien slaves directly. They just live their lives in the core worlds, free of crime, hunger, suffering, bigotry, etc... Maybe they aren't all moustache twirling villains, but if they are prospering because their government is actively oppressing, killing, and enslaving anyone not like them...are they not also evil? This is what I'm getting at. Once you start taking a look at the Imperial side of things, a lot of deep questions get brought to the surface, and Disney doesn't like deep questions.

And if you think that this sort of stuff wouldn't come up...lets go back to Ep7 and the outrage that happened because of a black stormtrooper, or a female main character. How about all the white washing in various movies. People get worked up about the content of blockbuster movies. They don't just view it as pure entertainment. They try to interpret it. They dive for deeper meaning. They speculate at the intentions of the director or writers. They look at 10 year old twitter content to suss out political leanings of people. An Imperial focused movie that isn't straight up evil vs evil is a non-starter for Disney.

The only way to even approach an Imperial focused movie would be evil vs evil. But you would have to do so in a way that doesn't allow anyone to look like a hero. True evil fighting true evil. Vader hunting down and killing corrupt Imperial Moffs. Imperial Admirals attempting to backstab one another, or set each other up for failure so that Vader force chokes them to death for their incompetence. But this concept becomes so dark and dreary that I don't know if it works for Disney either.

Again, GREAT storytelling potential here, but not as a SW blockbuster film. SW movies are clear heroes and villains. Black and White. They will never portray any part of the Empire in a positive light as it muddies the waters. It also opens up the floodgates of public opinion in a way that could turn negative, which Disney won't let happen to their properties.

There are other ways to explore those stories though, and ways that aren't hindered by public opinion. Novels, comics, RPGs, video games.

37 minutes ago, Snipafist said:

...I'm just going to give up today. ??‍♂️

wow yah the first order beig one dimensional EVIL screeching fanatics wasn't a problem in TFA & TLJ.

*eyeroll*

6 minutes ago, kmanweiss said:

Rogue One didn't introduce the idea that not all Rebels were good people. It leaned into it big time, but didn't introduce it. It's been a part of Star Wars since Ep4. Han is not a Rebel. He's a pirate, a smuggler, the guy that shoots first. He's not a hero, he's a rogue out for his own interests. Lando is also not a Rebel, he's a gambling business/con man, also out for himself.

It opens up difficult conversations though. Imperial human privilege. Accepting of slavery. Accepting of racism. If you make a heroic character that is part of the Empire, and remains a part of the empire, even if you don't touch on slavery/racism, you have that underlying theme in place. This is tricky. Hey look, this guy is super cool, and he's a bit of a rogue as he objects to Imperial ways on certain subjects....although he still does fully support them, remains a part of them, fights against the rebels, and doesn't outwardly oppose the slavery/racism that is part of the Empire in the SW universe.

The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing. The billions that serve or live in the Empire voluntarily are doing so out of privilege. Their lives benefit because other lives suffer...and they are willing to accept this as it brings privilege to their lives. Are they good people? They don't actively hate aliens themselves. They don't kill aliens, or use alien slaves directly. They just live their lives in the core worlds, free of crime, hunger, suffering, bigotry, etc... Maybe they aren't all moustache twirling villains, but if they are prospering because their government is actively oppressing, killing, and enslaving anyone not like them...are they not also evil? This is what I'm getting at. Once you start taking a look at the Imperial side of things, a lot of deep questions get brought to the surface, and Disney doesn't like deep questions.

And if you think that this sort of stuff wouldn't come up...lets go back to Ep7 and the outrage that happened because of a black stormtrooper, or a female main character. How about all the white washing in various movies. People get worked up about the content of blockbuster movies. They don't just view it as pure entertainment. They try to interpret it. They dive for deeper meaning. They speculate at the intentions of the director or writers. They look at 10 year old twitter content to suss out political leanings of people. An Imperial focused movie that isn't straight up evil vs evil is a non-starter for Disney.

The only way to even approach an Imperial focused movie would be evil vs evil. But you would have to do so in a way that doesn't allow anyone to look like a hero. True evil fighting true evil. Vader hunting down and killing corrupt Imperial Moffs. Imperial Admirals attempting to backstab one another, or set each other up for failure so that Vader force chokes them to death for their incompetence. But this concept becomes so dark and dreary that I don't know if it works for Disney either.

Again, GREAT storytelling potential here, but not as a SW blockbuster film. SW movies are clear heroes and villains. Black and White. They will never portray any part of the Empire in a positive light as it muddies the waters. It also opens up the floodgates of public opinion in a way that could turn negative, which Disney won't let happen to their properties.

There are other ways to explore those stories though, and ways that aren't hindered by public opinion. Novels, comics, RPGs, video games.

I don't agree with the Empire is rascist, only speciest. Characters like Sloane prove that human skin color doesn't matter to the Empire, the largely white cast of the OT is a consequence of the times it was filmed, notice how the Rebels are mostly white as well.

I can't see the Empire as irredeemably evil, because the parallels between the Empire and the USA are too strong for me to think in those absolute terms. Think of all the truly monstrous things our government has done throughout history, and compare that to the Empire's approach to aliens and to the Rebels. Does that mean that American citizens and soldiers are all monsters by association? No I don't believe that it does, and neither does it condemn all Imperials either.

No one can seem to come together in today's world, your alternative beliefs/views are an attack/insult to my beliefs/views, and the political center has been ripped apart by the Left and the Right. Honestly I feel isolated politically speaking for holding conservative and liberal views at the same time, as opposed to being exclusively on one side.

11 minutes ago, Piratical Moustache said:

I don't agree with the Empire is rascist, only speciest. Characters like Sloane prove that human skin color doesn't matter to the Empire, the largely white cast of the OT is a consequence of the times it was filmed, notice how the Rebels are mostly white as well.

I can't see the Empire as irredeemably evil, because the parallels between the Empire and the USA are too strong for me to think in those absolute terms. Think of all the truly monstrous things our government has done throughout history, and compare that to the Empire's approach to aliens and to the Rebels. Does that mean that American citizens and soldiers are all monsters by association? No I don't believe that it does, and neither does it condemn all Imperials either.

No one can seem to come together in today's world, your alternative beliefs/views are an attack/insult to my beliefs/views, and the political center has been ripped apart by the Left and the Right. Honestly I feel isolated politically speaking for holding conservative and liberal views at the same time, as opposed to being exclusively on one side.

Cool, both the Empire and Rebellion are right, from a certain point of view!

2 hours ago, AllWingsStandyingBy said:

I'd be for a film that explores the Empire, but only if it really hones in on the terrible horrors they leveled upon the Galaxy and reminded us all they were so terrible and why so many planets were willing to resist and form the Alliance.

Mate.

The Empire isn’t real.

It’s a movie.

Stop talking about us like we want to reimagine the life of Jospeh Goebbels as a misunderstood tragic hero.

Do you really think people like horror movies because they are in favour of IRL violence?

I don’t play WW2 war games at the Nazis because I really wish they’d won. I do it because moving a tiny tiger tank across a table and then rolling a dice and forcing my opponent to remove his inferior Sherman tanks is fun.

3 minutes ago, geek19 said:

Cool, both the Empire and Rebellion are right, from a certain point of view!

I know that this is sarcasm, but yes there are heroes and villains on both sides of any conflict.

It is a mark of weakness not strength to be unwilling to hear an opposing viewpoint, something neither Democrats or Republicans understand.

4 minutes ago, Piratical Moustache said:

I know that this is sarcasm, but yes there are heroes and villains on both sides of any conflict.

It is a mark of weakness not strength to be unwilling to hear an opposing viewpoint, something neither Democrats or Republicans understand.

You know what film was great for that? Hero starting Jet Li. You had the “Emperor” vs the Rebels and both were simultaneously right and wrong, and the whole time the rest of China was like “seriously, can you all just stop pursuing your philosophical disagreements through military ends and let me raise my g**d**m chickens in peace”.

Thats how I think a large majority of the Star Wars universe views the whole Empire vs Rebels thing.

And the hilarious thing considering how much I hate TLJ is that I sort of almost agree with Rose/Luke - screw sacrificing yourself in a never ending war between two ideologies. Look out for your own and as far as possible do no harm and leave the place slightly better or at least not worse than you found it.

Okay I've been thinking about this. How about a movie about Kyle Katarn while he was in Imperial service...it would end with him letting or helping Jan Ors escape. You get a familiar character back into canon, you get an imperial point of view, you get to see not all Imperials are bad.

43 minutes ago, Bakura83 said:

Thats how I think a large majority of the Star Wars universe views the whole Empire vs Rebels thing.

Totally!

Well... except for all the Wookiees and other species that are enslaved and forced into labor by the Empire. And the moisture farmers that get burned alive after being interrogated. And the owners of legetimate businesses who have their entire colonies taken from them when the Empire occupies. Or the Corellians, who had their means of production entirely repurposed to produce Imperial vessels, sending many of its citizens into living in the underground fighting for scraps. To say nothing of how the Alderannians...


But yea, you're right, the Empire and the Rebels are both sort of good and sort of bad and really what's the difference between 'em??? ?

41 minutes ago, SnowWulf said:

... you get to see not all Imperials are bad.

I thought that during the Tribunals after WWII we all sort of agreed that "I was just following orders!" wasn't a moral excuse.

I mean, how many moisture farmers does a grunt have to execute if he's just following orders? How many wookies does somebody need to drive to the forced labor camp? How many planets do you have to hear about being turned to space-dust by your organization? We're talking about an organization that overtly does these sorts of things and believes that Fear and Force are legitimate operational procedures. We're talking about an organization that name their own stuff things like "DEATH STAR" and "EXECUTOR" and "TYRANT" and "DEATH TROOPERS" and eventually "STARKILLER."

People might join the Empire out of coercion, fear, or lack of options... but to be a complacent cog in such an overtly oppressive and violent organization is to be morally complicit in its actions, and that makes you to some degree bad. Now, there might be a few outliers who sabotage from within, like Kallus or Erso, but they aren't really Imperials as they are constantly trying to undermine its platform.

3 minutes ago, AllWingsStandyingBy said:

I thought that during the Tribunals after WWII we all sort of agreed that "I was just following orders!" wasn't a moral excuse.

I mean, how many moisture farmers does a grunt have to execute if he's just following orders? How many wookies does somebody need to drive to the forced labor camp? How many planets do you have to hear about being turned to space-dust by your organization? We're talking about an organization that overtly does these sorts of things and believes that Fear and Force are legitimate operational procedures. We're talking about an organization that names their stuff things like "DEATH STARS" and "EXECUTOR" and "

Did you know the United States invented nuclear weapons? That we provided safe haven for Nazi rocket scientists and Japanese chemical weapons designers? That we support Saudi Arabia in it's war of genocide against the Yemeni people? That the US wiped out the Native Americans in the name of manifest destiny?

Every nation is guilty of some form of evil at some point in their history. I don't see why the Empire being protrayed as something less than the blackest evil is considered obscene.

18 minutes ago, Piratical Moustache said:

Did you know the United States invented nuclear weapons? That we provided safe haven for Nazi rocket scientists and Japanese chemical weapons designers? That we support Saudi Arabia in it's war of genocide against the Yemeni people? That the US wiped out the Native Americans in the name of manifest destiny?

Every nation is guilty of some form of evil at some point in their history. I don't see why the Empire being protrayed as something less than the blackest evil is considered obscene.

Because no one wants to see Space Nuremberg Trials: the movie?

2 hours ago, Piratical Moustache said:

I don't agree with the Empire is racist, only speciest.

You are quibbling over definitions in a way that makes it abundantly clear you don't understand why the definitions matter. Either is a form of bigotry, a fundamental form of dehumanization (de-sentientization I suppose for the aliens). Both are a form of evil. Also learn to spell.

1 hour ago, Piratical Moustache said:

I know that this is sarcasm, but yes there are heroes and villains on both sides of any conflict.

It is a mark of weakness not strength to be unwilling to hear an opposing viewpoint, something neither Democrats or Republicans understand.

Both of these sentences are correct, yet it remains clear you have no idea what you are talking about. "Hearing an opposing point of view" has got as little to do with not disagreeing with, not having heard it before and already reached a conclusion, or after having heard it not feeling it necessary or appropriate to grant that view the respect accorded to moral, sensible, or otherwise upstanding ideas in the course of discourse as tasting a meal and enjoying said meal do. Let me say that again, I can hear you, process your point, and reply in the negative, and you cannot assume the first two steps did not happen because the third did.

34 minutes ago, Piratical Moustache said:

Did you know the United States invented nuclear weapons? That we provided safe haven for Nazi rocket scientists and Japanese chemical weapons designers? That we support Saudi Arabia in its war of genocide against the Yemeni people? That the US wiped out the Native Americans in the name of manifest destiny?

Every nation is guilty of some form of evil at some point in their history. I don't see why the Empire being protrayed as something less than the blackest evil is considered obscene.

First off, you wanted "its" there, not "it's". Second, all four of those points are common knowledge. No one else has brought up the United States Government as some all-good entity overseeing the betterment of mankind. I'm pretty sure most of the posters in this thread have not even identified their nationality to you. And the fourth is a matter of some debate in any case. American west-ward expansion did not help the surviving Native American populations they encountered. Many of the casualties were the result of the (generally unintentional but occasionally intentional) introduction of European diseases to a continent that had no defense against it. The US Army did a lot of killing and forced relocations, but let's paint the whole picture here.

@ffgjosh Lock this thread please.

This thread was a mistake, I didn't want or expect a political fight. I just wanted to talk about ideas for a movie.

2 minutes ago, Piratical Moustache said:

This thread was a mistake, I didn't want or expect a political fight. I just wanted to talk about ideas for a movie.

But you continued it, and engaged in assumptions about the nature and character of your opponents. My sympathy is non-existent.

Just now, GiledPallaeon said:

But you continued it, and engaged in assumptions about the nature and character of your opponents. My sympathy is non-existent.

I didn't assume anything about anybody, my point was evil acts have been committed by every nation. I didn't resort to profanity, intellectual insults or anything else of that nature, unlike you.

6 minutes ago, Piratical Moustache said:

I didn't assume anything about anybody, my point was evil acts have been committed by every nation. I didn't resort to profanity, intellectual insults or anything else of that nature, unlike you.

Neither did I. I directly refuted your points, without pretense as to why I believe they were/are misguided. I did not question your intelligence, nor imply that you were inferior to me. If you can't handle this kind of debate, where the other person does not feel it necessary to give your opinions the time of day because of their opinion on those matters, don't bring them up. Go re-read my second reply in my first post on this page, it must not have been clear the first time.

3 hours ago, Snipafist said:

I want to make clear that this was not quoted enough.