8 minutes ago, ficklegreendice said:

so, in order to enable low initiative ordnance, I need to take a dedicated support ship?

As long as Tracers don't come back, yep. There's a price for 4 dice double-modded attacks, isn't it nice? Coordinated assault FTW.
Plus, I don't see the need of turning an ordnance platform into yet another 3-attack-dice jouster. I don't see how brainless jousting could be called "good fun design".

24 minutes ago, Giledhil said:

When you get to move first, having to use your action for focusing hardly is a disadvantage, since you won't use BR (unless you're blocking and not firing anyway) or TL (as it's better not to telegraph your desired target).
And focus combines perfectly with the infamous Jonus' ability (on this one we can agree, he's stupidly effective for his cost).
Plus the fact that bombers get a really nice ability to bomb the field after the initial pass.

As for the use of classic ordnance with low initiative, maybe I could introduce you to Colonel Jendon, or the Coordinate action, or maybe that Moff with a heavy english accent and carpet slippers?

I think you're missing the part where you must take an action (and spend pts) to get that 3 die primary...

45 minutes ago, Giledhil said:

As long as Tracers don't come back, yep. There's a price for 4 dice double-modded attacks, isn't it nice? Coordinated assault FTW.
Plus, I don't see the need of turning an ordnance platform into yet another 3-attack-dice jouster. I don't see how brainless jousting could be called "good fun design".

So...needing to focus is "mindless jousting" , but already having a TL isn't?

I guess the shuttle jump-starts your iq something fierce, huh?

Anyway, no. Variety is good. Removing variety because of "reasons" is wasteful

3 minutes ago, ficklegreendice said:

So...needing to focus is "mindless jousting" , but already having a TL isn't?

Anyway, no. Variety is good. Removing variety because of "reasons" is wasteful

Most low Init jousters will move and focus, even without barrage rockets. So yeah, mindless basic jousting.
Already having a TL means you're telling your opponent what your target is, at least one turn in advance; that changes the approach game a lot over straight jousting.
Making the TIE bomber one more variation of 3-dice-jouster isn't what I call variety. Having them use TL-based ordnance, on the other hand, is a move towards variety of tactics (which may be even more important than variety of ships).

5 hours ago, Giledhil said:

3-dice-jouster

Except when it k-turns, is blocked, is jammed, has to br to get arc, has to spend the focus on defense, etc.

4 hours ago, hawk32 said:

Except when it k-turns, is blocked, is jammed, has to br to get arc, has to spend the focus on defense, etc.

We're talking about low initiative ships. So you don't BR to get an arc, if you do, it's definitely for blocking, not firing.
You only get blocked by lower initiative ships (so mostly TIE swarms or Phoenix A-wings), and if you do, they just end up in a cloud of proton bombs on the next turn.

But I admit Barrage are a nice crutch for beginers wanting to field the TIE Bomber.

5 hours ago, Giledhil said:

We're talking about low initiative ships. So you don't BR to get an arc, if you do, it's definitely for blocking, not firing.
You only get blocked by lower initiative ships (so mostly TIE swarms or Phoenix A-wings), and if you do, they just end up in a cloud of proton bombs on the next turn.

But I admit Barrage are a nice crutch for beginers wanting to field the TIE Bomber.

Would you say the Striker is undercosted? For the same cost as a Barrage Scimitar you get a vastly more maneuverable ship with a 3-dice attack that does not require a token, and never runs out of ammo.

6 hours ago, Giledhil said:

But I admit Barrage are a nice crutch for beginers wanting to field the TIE Bomber.

Bless.

6 hours ago, Giledhil said:

You only get blocked by lower initiative ships

Wrong.

barrage rockets are not undercosted. Like Fickle said, its Jonus giving them mad rerolls thats the issue.

6pts for a 3die attack that has no bonus perk, when all except Proton Torps are the same cost WITH some other effect, its only real difference being focus instead of lock. Nothing wrong with that.
Suddenly they get 2 rerolls because its a missile? Ok, thats kinda bonkers.

Low init ships not getting a lock has virtually nothing to do with YOU playing with "half a brain" - its almost completely on your opponent being dumb as heck and not controlling range properly. Bombers are only so fast, aim to be just out of R3 and you will almost always end up in R1 next round against them.

45 minutes ago, Okapi said:

Would you say the Striker is undercosted? For the same cost as a Barrage Scimitar you get a vastly more maneuverable ship with a 3-dice attack that does not require a token, and never runs out of ammo.

Striker suffers heavily on having low survivability. 2 less HP makes it way less interesting in jousting situations. You're comparing two ships that don't have the same role.

8 minutes ago, Vineheart01 said:

barrage rockets are not undercosted. Like Fickle said, its Jonus giving them mad rerolls thats the issue.

6pts for a 3die attack that has no bonus perk, when all except Proton Torps are the same cost WITH some other effect, its only real difference being focus instead of lock. Nothing wrong with that.
Suddenly they get 2 rerolls because its a missile? Ok, thats kinda bonkers.

Low init ships not getting a lock has virtually nothing to do with YOU playing with "half a brain" - its almost completely on your opponent being dumb as heck and not controlling range properly. Bombers are only so fast, aim to be just out of R3 and you will almost always end up in R1 next round against them.

Of course that's the combination of Barrage and Jonus making this **** insane. But I still think Barrage are a bit too cheap (in cost and in design).
Yeah, hurry at R1, those things have proton bombs, you know? (and a nice ability to make use of it right)

I don't get the push to range 1 (unless your a fang)

Instead of an average of 2.8 hits it drops to 2.25 hits.

Sure it is less, but it isn't like they just hit you with a wet noodle at range 1

17 minutes ago, Roundy1161 said:

I don't get the push to range 1 (unless your a fang)

Instead of an average of 2.8 hits it drops to 2.25 hits.

Sure it is less, but it isn't like they just hit you with a wet noodle at range 1

At the same time you increase your damage by quite a bit, making it more likely to remove a Bomber, thereby creating space for you to maneuver.

So here is my 2 cents:

> A Scimitar with Barrage and Proton Bombs is only 39 points. It can shoot 3 dice with a focus that denies R3 bonus and gets full mods in bullseye, and though it drops to 2 red dice on a K-Turn, it can still fling bombs straight, left or right. And it has 6 HP with 2 green dice.

> A PS 2 X-Wing is 41 points, and with S-Foils gets a focus to boost (but only 2 attack). It still can keep 3 red dice while stressed (though targets will get a r3 bonus on defense), and has a talon roll. It has 6 HP with 2 green dice.

> So, to me, the Scimitar that can drop bombs and potentially get full mods by only taking one action (focus) should be equal in cost to the X-Wing. Granted, it does need a focus to shoot, but don't forget about the bombs and that sweet ship ability. It is a balancing act. No shields, must have focus, but had better offense and bombs. The X-Wing can't bomb, has shields, but gets a native 3 dice, and can't get full mods from one action.

To me then, the generic bombers only need a 2-3 point increase.

Or drop X-Wings to 40/39 points base Jk

The xwing also has a better dial, an open action, and throws four dice at range one.

1v1 I think the xwing has it unless he insists on kturning into both proton bombs.

13 minutes ago, HanScottFirst said:

Or drop X-Wings to 40/39 points base Jk

I think they are deliberately costed at 41 pts to avoid people flying 5 of them at 200pts.

2 minutes ago, Giledhil said:

I think they are deliberately costed at 41 pts to avoid people flying 5 of them at 200pts.

1 hour ago, Vineheart01 said:

its only real difference being focus instead of lock. Nothing wrong with that.

I think you're massively undervaluing what a huge difference that is.

Focus as a requirement instead of target lock is massive on low Int ships with limited repositioning. It makes them so much easier to use.

Barrage Rockets should not be the same cost as Concussion Missiles, IMO. They do the same damage, and have the same range but the rockets are so much easier to shoot on all platforms. A focus doesn't care which ship you get in arc. A focus doesn't care where the enemy ship is during your activation. The double slot is not a balancing element here, it just limits which ships can take it. On every ship that can take it, Barrage is absolutely better than concussion for the cost.

Barrage only needing a focus means its value absolutely scales with the amount you can fit in a list. The more Barrage arcs you can put out there, the more of the board you control. This is not true for lock ordnance, which will only ever worry the specific ship it has locked.

Proton Rockets are 7 points despite being a one charge bullseye attack. The five dice is definitely part of it, but I absolutely think it's also down to the focus requirement making them easier to shoot.

I don't think that Barrage Rockets are crazily undercosted or anything like that, but I do think they're a point undercosted. They should be more expensive than concussion missiles.

Yeah, theXwing kinda smacks the bomber around as long as you're not derp enough to sit in front if a barrage clump at range 3

One thing I see people fail constantly at is forgetting that Servomotors exist. Servomotors literally define the Xwing

The ability to boost pre-engagement to set up great approaches is huge, as is the ability to safely disengage rather than maintain a foolhardy joust

Finally, if you joust past proton bomb bombers, youve only yourself to blame

Here what you do:

1.) Realize they have bombs

2.) Realize they're GARBAGE without rockets, which means they're garbage on the round they Kturn

3.) Move so you don't hit the bombs like a derp

For xwings, this means close foils and GTFO outta there

Edit: concussion milles being trash DOES NOT mean barrage is undercosted

It means concussion missiles are trash and can be reduced in cost

concs are trash by design, even if they were 2-3pts you wouldnt see them.

They require damage to already exist on not just one ship but EVERY SHIP in its aoe.

I'd rather have homers than concs. No debate on that one.

2 minutes ago, Vineheart01 said:

concs are trash by design, even if they were 2-3pts you wouldnt see them.

They require damage to already exist on not just one ship but EVERY SHIP in its aoe.

I'd rather have homers than concs. No debate on that one.

It seems to be a design decision to keep 4 dice ordnance to torpedo slot only and for 3 dice missile concussion is way overpriced. If the cost is less (lets say 2 pts) I can see people starting to use them primarily to deny r3 bonus die.

its trash because its 6pts for a 3die attack with 0 added benefit unless you somehow also had damage cards already there on nearby ships.

Ordnance are wanted for alpha strikes, not last minute finishes.

People use Clusters, which are 5pts and lack R3 but still a 3die attack. Its got 4 charges and can multi-fire if the situation arises.

Also Prockets are 5die missiles. At 7pts. Havnt seen those used just because bullseye is hard to line w/o burning actions to get it.

Agreed that barrage rockets should cost more than conc missiles. They should really drop the price of conc missiles by two or three points if they ever want them to be playable.