Dooku is one of my favorite villains in Star Wars, but he suffers from the fact that the story has Palpatine as being near-perfect in his planning. What if that were not the case? What if Palpatine were more fallible and Dooku was more clever (and less loyal) than portrayed? How could Dooku have made a play to actually win the Clone Wars? How would this have ended (a Separatist victory, a stalemate, something close to canon, or even evil vs evil lets the Jedi win)?

I have some ideas of my own, but I'm looking for some open brainstorming on this one.

First step would involve him successfully taking out palpatine or rendering him a non-entity in the scheme of things. Because any plan he has going is going to have to deal with him if it's going to have any hope of succeeding.

In a way, Dooku DID play to win... and though he didn't live to see it he did. The whole of the Clone Wars was orchestrated to eliminate the Jedi Order and conquer the Republic. Dooku and Palpatine subverted the Republic from within and used the Republic to destroy the Jedi. Dooku's problem was that he didn't anticipate that Palpatine would sacrifice him to do so, or that Anakin would be a possible replacement for him.

Now, if Dooku was trying to win via conquering the galaxy the old fashioned way, there's at least a couple things off the top of my head I think he could've done.

-Since Dooku was responsible for arranging the Clone Troopers be made, he could easily have subverted them to his purposes if he had wanted to. For instance, he could've put in an Order 67 or whatever that let him take over the Clones, drag the war along for a little while, and wait until the Clones were sufficiently entrenched in positions and planets all over the galaxy. Then all he'd have to do is execute that Order while simultaneously attacking as many major planets across the galaxy as he could all at the same time, Coruscant likely chief among them. Now he's got a virtually helpless Republic being attacked by two armies one of which they expected to defend them. The Republic would likely fall pretty quickly after that.

-Dooku could merely improve the battle droids, especially the B1s. The B1s are actually a very versatile design capable of doing anything a normal human could do and would be very effective if they weren't so stupid. The B1s just needed better logic and memory cores so they could be smarter and better able to hit their targets and they would eventually take the Republic down by sheer numbers alone. For space superiority really all the Seps would need is to change is the propulsion system on the Vulture Droids so they were much more fuel efficient. This would allow the Vultures to be distributed all at once rather than in waves which negated the advantage of their numbers. Numbers are the Seps game, but they are pretty bad at making any real use out of it.

The problem with supposing Dooku's war effort would have gone any differently had Palpatine's manipulation of the war not occurred or been generally ineffectual is that the Separatist war effort benefited from Palpatine's manipulations as much as it was harmed. The Separatists would have lost as much as they had gained if Palpatine didn't have his hand in both sides of the whole war effort. It makes it difficult to determine exactly how much of a difference it would have made in the end.

Hmmm....

Dooku contacts the Jedi Council. “I left the Order and chose to lead the Separatists because I came to believe the Republic has become corrupt. I still believe so. The corruption begins at the highest level: Chancellor Palapatine is the Sith Lord manipulating this conflict. Take him out...leave us be.”

Go from there.

2 hours ago, Nytwyng said:

Hmmm....

Dooku contacts the Jedi Council. “I left the Order and chose to lead the Separatists because I came to believe the Republic has become corrupt. I still believe so. The corruption begins at the highest level: Chancellor Palapatine is the Sith Lord manipulating this conflict. Take him out...leave us be.”

Go from there.

Would they leave him alone though? They know he's a Sith as early as Geonosis. Would his plan be to get Palpatine to pop O66 early and take advantage of the Republic's leadership gap (assuming the Jedi are still caught with their pants down)?

2 hours ago, immortalfrieza said:

In a way, Dooku DID play to win... and though he didn't live to see it he did. The whole of the Clone Wars was orchestrated to eliminate the Jedi Order and conquer the Republic. Dooku and Palpatine subverted the Republic from within and used the Republic to destroy the Jedi. Dooku's problem was that he didn't anticipate that Palpatine would sacrifice him to do so, or that Anakin would be a possible replacement for him.

Now, if Dooku was trying to win via conquering the galaxy the old fashioned way, there's at least a couple things off the top of my head I think he could've done.

-Since Dooku was responsible for arranging the Clone Troopers be made, he could easily have subverted them to his purposes if he had wanted to. For instance, he could've put in an Order 67 or whatever that let him take over the Clones, drag the war along for a little while, and wait until the Clones were sufficiently entrenched in positions and planets all over the galaxy. Then all he'd have to do is execute that Order while simultaneously attacking as many major planets across the galaxy as he could all at the same time, Coruscant likely chief among them. Now he's got a virtually helpless Republic being attacked by two armies one of which they expected to defend them. The Republic would likely fall pretty quickly after that.

-Dooku could merely improve the battle droids, especially the B1s. The B1s are actually a very versatile design capable of doing anything a normal human could do and would be very effective if they weren't so stupid. The B1s just needed better logic and memory cores so they could be smarter and better able to hit their targets and they would eventually take the Republic down by sheer numbers alone. For space superiority really all the Seps would need is to change is the propulsion system on the Vulture Droids so they were much more fuel efficient. This would allow the Vultures to be distributed all at once rather than in waves which negated the advantage of their numbers. Numbers are the Seps game, but they are pretty bad at making any real use out of it.

The problem with supposing Dooku's war effort would have gone any differently had Palpatine's manipulation of the war not occurred or been generally ineffectual is that the Separatist war effort benefited from Palpatine's manipulations as much as it was harmed. The Separatists would have lost as much as they had gained if Palpatine didn't have his hand in both sides of the whole war effort. It makes it difficult to determine exactly how much of a difference it would have made in the end.

I don't think the contingency orders of the clones (like O66) could be activated by someone lacking legitimate authority, so Dooku--an enemy of the Republic--was not really able to trip that switch even if he had it added.

2 hours ago, ExileofEnya said:

First step would involve him successfully taking out palpatine or rendering him a non-entity in the scheme of things. Because any plan he has going is going to have to deal with him if it's going to have any hope of succeeding.

IOW, follow the guidelines of the Rule of Two and realize that one of you has to go.

43 minutes ago, HappyDaze said:

Would they leave him alone though? They know he's a Sith as early as Geonosis. Would his plan be to get Palpatine to pop O66 early and take advantage of the Republic's leadership gap (assuming the Jedi are still caught with their pants down)?

All of that is up to the GM/player’s, and how events begin to play out after that moment (not to mention when, exactly, that moment takes place).

6 hours ago, HappyDaze said:

Would they leave him alone though? They know he's a Sith as early as Geonosis. Would his plan be to get Palpatine to pop O66 early and take advantage of the Republic's leadership gap (assuming the Jedi are still caught with their pants down)?

Kinda depends on how much the Emperor compartmentalizes. The best time for Dooku to go rogue is pre-Geonosis. Without the war and without the clone troopers Palpatine wouldnt be able to wipe out the Jedi, and done right Palpatine could lose his position as chancellor when the war breaks out. Heck, if Dooku knew about the clone troopers, he could probably move to take control of them and it would be a very short war, what with him having two armies and the republic zero. ****, if he doesnt blather on to a jedi that he is a bad guy he could be the hero of the piece Saving the galaxy from a massive war and bringing back peace and harmony to the galaxy. Or if he knows about order 66 he could trip it early and make the republic think that its clone armies are unreliable. Maybe make it the droid wars instead of Xeroxed Jango War

15 hours ago, Nytwyng said:

All of that is up to the GM/player’s, and how events begin to play out after that moment (not to mention when, exactly, that moment takes place).

I'm still going under the assumption that Dooku wants to fulfill the two Sith objectives: 1) destroy the Jedi, and 2) control all of the galaxy (not just Separatist systems, or even the Republic, but all of the galaxy).

But should that be the assumption? Goal 1 is a definite, but goal 2 is more of a Palpatine thing. Dooku seemed to genuinely want to purify the Republic and was happy to use conflict to bring about that purification. So, without Palpatine, what route would be best for Dooku to take to come out as an accepted leader of a reformed Republic (call it an Empire if you wish)? Would military conquest be the only way forward for him?

I've long read Dooku as always playing to win, just not being able to.

Here's how I've always interpreted his character: he's not a believer in the Sith, he's a believer in the Separatist cause. Leaving the Jedi Order was entirely legitimate on his part. After the death of Qui-Gon Jinn, he saw the Republic as irredeemably corrupt and the Jedi as stagnant. He probably fully intended to create a rival order, one that was more focused on using the Force for action rather than contemplation.

Canon says that Dooku was approached during this time by Darth Sidious, which may still be true, but I like to think he was already becoming a leader within the growing Separatist movement. He's level-headed enough that I don't think he was swayed by a simple offer of power. Instead, he probably saw becoming a Sith as a means to an end, fulfilling his dream of creating a new galactic government where individual worlds would have more power. That's why he accepted.

It's also why he was more cavalier with the Rule of Two than Sidious probably would have liked. He trained Ventress, then Savage as if they were proper apprentices. Despite not being Force sensitive, he trained General Grievous to be a fearsome combatant. He devoted considerable energies to being a political leader, and engaged the greedy and corrupt forces of the galaxy with every intent of betraying them later—all for the cause of independence.

He does all of this knowing full well that Darth Sidious is also Chancellor Palpatine, and that his goal is to crush the Republic and the Jedi. But maybe he doesn't know that his ultimate plan is to undermine both sides and create a new Sith Empire. Maybe, instead, Dooku believes that creating a Separatist state is part of the final outcome, along with a weakened Republic and a destroyed Jedi Order. Then the two Sith will rule the galaxy and maintain control with the constant threat of war.

So this suggests, to me, a couple possibilities for Infinity scenarios:

• What if Dooku successfully created an offshoot Jedi Order? He took a few students with him when he left and then found more, creating a new order on Serenno. Doing so would probably make him an undesirable apprentice to Sidious, which could delay the start of the war and torpedo Sidious's attempt to gain emergency powers to extend his term. It also means that Dooku probably wouldn't become the political head of the Separatist cause, but rather lead a group of Separatist-aligned Jedi. That could be an interesting role for PCs. In addition, the process of secession could be far more political, being more spy-versus-spy and proxy conflicts rather than outright warfare.
• What if Dooku became aware of the real plan? In this interpretation, he would likely be opposed to just being used as a tool to create a Sith Empire, since he believes whole-heartedly in the cause of the Confederacy. He might then start considering the next part of the Rule of Two: offing your master to gain all the power. There are a few ways he could pull this off, including maybe alerting the Jedi Order to Palpatine's true identity—which maybe he does by putting the seed of doubt in Anakin Skywalker's mind. The death or exile of Palpatine would probably leave the Republic in a state of crisis, which would lead to it hemorrhaging worlds that might join the Separatists or might become independent. In any case, job done.

Having just finished my third (fourth?) rewatch of The Clone Wars , I think this interpretation holds water. The details of what Dooku knew as Darth Tyranus and how Sidious made his offer of apprenticeship is still mostly unknown, described in vague terms in Attack of the Clones and never elaborated anywhere else.

9 hours ago, korjik said:

Kinda depends on how much the Emperor compartmentalizes. The best time for Dooku to go rogue is pre-Geonosis. Without the war and without the clone troopers Palpatine wouldnt be able to wipe out the Jedi, and done right Palpatine could lose his position as chancellor when the war breaks out. Heck, if Dooku knew about the clone troopers, he could probably move to take control of them and it would be a very short war, what with him having two armies and the republic zero. ****, if he doesnt blather on to a jedi that he is a bad guy he could be the hero of the piece Saving the galaxy from a massive war and bringing back peace and harmony to the galaxy. Or if he knows about order 66 he could trip it early and make the republic think that its clone armies are unreliable. Maybe make it the droid wars instead of Xeroxed Jango War

Interesting. The amount of play Dooku could have on the clones is a tough question as these were definitely pieces that Palpatine kept his hands--and finances--on (even if he had Dooku recruit Fett).

Another question is whether the "kill signal" that hit the droid army is something that Palpatine could have accessed.

Also, how much knowledge did the Separatist Council (the Banking Clan, Commerce Guild, Techno Union, Trade Federation, and the rest) have of Sidious? Did they know that Dooku had a boss, or did thye think he was the real brains of the operation? Same questions for the SDA generals and other officers.

A few quick thoughts:

1) A lot depends on WHEN Dooku goes rogue.

2) I've always had a theory that that librarian Jocasta Nu was Dooku's lover and secret spy within the Jedi. Although later appearances run counter to this, there's some implication during the Episode 2 era that he has a spy, and I believe the novelization refers to her viewing him somewhat positively.

3) Another theory: In the old Saga RPG, they imply that Dooku's motivation for dabbling in the dark side is that he simply cannot believe that Anakin would be the Chosen One, and he sets out to prove that HE is the Chosen one instead, and will do so by mastering both the Light and Dark sides of the Force, which some silly child simply can't be capable of. Could provide an interesting angle that differs from Sidious's motives.

4) The Clone Wars series provides a ton of depth to Dooku's scheming and also to the idea of a three-sided war, once Maul gains power on his own. I would think that without Sidious to reign on Maul, a three-way war might be very interesting.

I can probably throw out more ideas, but I need to go to lunch...

6 minutes ago, CaptainRaspberry said:

Here's how I've always interpreted his character: he's not a believer in the Sith, he's a believer in the Separatist cause.

I wish that were true, but the Clone Wars series makes it fairly obvious that he sees the CIS as nothing but puppets. He has utter disregard for their Senate and civilians, and his methods of control are very Sith-y.

Now, an alternate Dooku that has him as a tragic true believer in the Separatist cause would be very awesome in my eyes. It would make far more sense for why he embraced the power of the Sith.

9 hours ago, HappyDaze said:

Interesting. The amount of play Dooku could have on the clones is a tough question as these were definitely pieces that Palpatine kept his hands--and finances--on (even if he had Dooku recruit Fett).

Another question is whether the "kill signal" that hit the droid army is something that Palpatine could have accessed.

Also, how much knowledge did the Separatist Council (the Banking Clan, Commerce Guild, Techno Union, Trade Federation, and the rest) have of Sidious? Did they know that Dooku had a boss, or did thye think he was the real brains of the operation? Same questions for the SDA generals and other officers.

They had to have known that Dooku was second. They were talking to Sidious in Phantom Menace.

I do think Dooku would know quite a bit about the Emperors plans. Unlike the apprentice before or after, he isnt an idiot. Well, supposed to not be.

Tho if you are planning to change up the clone wars by having Dooku go rogue, I would not be too beholden to the canon. If you think a change fits better but blows a whole movie out of the water go with the change.