The card reads "Before you engage, roll 1 attack die. On a hit result, suffer 1 hit damage. Action: Repair this card."

If a ship has one hull left, rolls for this crit, and takes the final point of damage, does it still get to shoot? It came up in a game today where we both had Init 5 ships. Opponent had console fire from the last turn. I had initiative. I activated and reduced him to one hull point. As per the card, before he activated, he rolled (came up blank) and proceeded to kill my last ship. I congratulated him on his win and pointed out he was lucky that didn't kill him, because that crit applies damage before you activate, meaning it would have killed him before he activated. He insists simultaneous fire rule would over ride that. I argue that the wording is very specific that that last damage would take out a ship before it activates and gets to fire, just as it would had he took the last hit before activating in any other situation.

I agree thematically it should work that way because my damage from shots came at the same time his shots would have, but rules don't care about themes. If they did, crits received from simultaneous fire wouldn't take effect until after you both fire, but they do.

I was about to say:
I agree with your interpretation. The effect happens before you engage.
The ship dies before it gets to shoot. Being in a Simultaneous Fire situation does not prevent that.

Just looking at the rules, however, there does indeed seem to be a slight problem:

• "After all ships of a given initiative have engaged, all destroyed ships are removed." does indeed say that ships get removed after they engaged. (Engagement Phase)
• "If a ship is destroyed during the Engagement Phase, it is removed after all ships that have the same initiative as the currently engaged ship have engaged." (Destroying Ships)
• "To represent that ships with the same initiative are essentially attacking at the same time, if a ship is destroyed during the Engagement Phase, it is removed after all ships that have the same initiative as the currently engaged ship have engaged." (Simultaneous Fire)

Note that nowhere in there is a statement that a ship that gets damaged by an effect before it engages gets destroyed immediatly. So as baffling as it is - looking at the rules, your opponent seems to be right. This doesn't even have to do anything with simultanous fire - if the ship is destroyed immediatly before it engages not all ships with the same initiative have engaged yet (because the ship itself hasn't engaged yet), so it gets to fire.

Another rule I chalk up to "There is no way this is intentional"...off to the rules question submission form!

11 minutes ago, GermanBlackbot said:

I was about to say:
I agree with your interpretation. The effect happens before you engage.
The ship dies before it gets to shoot. Being in a Simultaneous Fire situation does not prevent that.

Just looking at the rules, however, there does indeed seem to be a slight problem:

• "After all ships of a given initiative have engaged, all destroyed ships are removed." does indeed say that ships get removed after they engaged. (Engagement Phase)
• "If a ship is destroyed during the Engagement Phase, it is removed after all ships that have the same initiative as the currently engaged ship have engaged." (Destroying Ships)
• "To represent that ships with the same initiative are essentially attacking at the same time, if a ship is destroyed during the Engagement Phase, it is removed after all ships that have the same initiative as the currently engaged ship have engaged." (Simultaneous Fire)

Note that nowhere in there is a statement that a ship that gets damaged by an effect before it engages gets destroyed immediatly. So as baffling as it is - looking at the rules, your opponent seems to be right. This doesn't even have to do anything with simultanous fire - if the ship is destroyed immediatly before it engages not all ships with the same initiative have engaged yet (because the ship itself hasn't engaged yet), so it gets to fire.

Another rule I chalk up to "There is no way this is intentional"...off to the rules question submission form!

Why is this not intentional?

Makes sense to me, the console fire happens in the engagement phase so its going off as your ship is shooting hence your ship still would get the shot off even if the fire were to burn it out. Just like simultaneous fire rules.

Just because you don't like it does not make it not "intentional".

The rules are written out extremely clear for this situation as you quoted them.

The reason I'm not sure that this is intentional is that this is extremly counter intuitive.
Most people would assume that you get destroyed before you get to shoot. This is such a weird corner case that I would've expected the rules to point out what happens in this case one way or the other. The way it's described it's counter intuitive (You get destroyed by your own damage but still get to shoot) and if something gets this against what "feels" most rules I know point out such a case.

But you're right, it might actually be intentional! I might have let my feeling of how it should work color my comment. And it has something bitter sweet for a ship to go out fighting. "My console fire might engulf me, but I'm taking you with me!"

One way or the other, I've fired of a rules question and if I get an answer in the next weeks I'll report back.

I don't think it's unintentional, or at least not out of line with the general idea behind simultaneous fire. The game seems to want to treat all engagements at the same Initiative as happening at the same time so allowing ships destroyed by a Console Fire to still fire is in keeping with that idea. It's a little odd, but not really counterintuitive when considered along with the rest of the rules for simultaneous fire.

Probably still worth an e-mail to the rules team, if only because it's the sort of thing it's good to have 100% clarity on when explaining to people who aren't aware of the rule.

The reason, to me, that it is ambiguous, is that "before" part. If they didn't intend for it to occur before your engagement occurs, why not just say "when you engage"? "Before you engage" makes it sound like it takes place at the very last moment before your initiative starts engaging.

It gets to shoot, for my money. In 2e dead ships are not removed until ALL ships with their initiative have shot that round.

It gets a little floopy if it's the only ship of its initiative value, perhaps, but I doubt that's intentional.

27 minutes ago, Thra11 said:

The reason, to me, that it is ambiguous, is that "before" part. If they didn't intend for it to occur before your engagement occurs, why not just say "when you engage"? "Before you engage" makes it sound like it takes place at the very last moment before your initiative starts engaging. 

I think because they removed "when" from their vocab.
Quick search in the database gave 0 results for "when", but lots for "before" and "after".
"Before" basically means "Your engagement starts, but before you do ANYTHING else, start with this."

Think of it another way. Compare these two situations:

1. You kill him exactly with Direct Hit damage. We all know he gets to fire.
2. You leave him at one and apply a Console Fire. He engages and rolls a hit and takes a damage.

In both situations, he's taking an extra damage as a result of the incoming shot, but he's shooting simultaneously, so he gets to shoot.

The only difference with your situation is that the fire existed before the turn. He's still taking the damage at the exact same time. I don't think there's a way to allow him to shoot in situation 2 (where he should obviously be allowed to) and not allow him to shoot if he burns up from a previous-turn's Console Fire (except to leave the roll at the start of combat, which they obviously did not want to do).

5 hours ago, GermanBlackbot said:

I think because they removed "when" from their vocab.
Quick search in the database gave 0 results for "when", but lots for "before" and "after".
"Before" basically means "Your engagement starts, but before you do ANYTHING else, start with this."

Yup. There's also " while ," which handles effects that might happen in the middle of a particular event (like Predator : " While you perform a primary attack...")

The should be a clarification that all ships of a given initiative 'engage' at the same time. Then they attack on priority order.

Another question though.... If you're on an asteroid, do you still 'engage' even if you don't fire?

Just now, TwisteDmAGPIe said:

The should be a clarification that all ships of a given initiative 'engage' at the same time. Then they attack on priority order.

Another question though.... If you're on an asteroid, do you still 'engage' even if you don't fire?

Yes.

5 hours ago, TwisteDmAGPIe said:

The should be a clarification that all ships of a given initiative 'engage  ' at the same time. Then they attack on priority order  .

That wouldn't be a clarification, but a rule change.

The RR explicitly states that the ships of the player with initiative engage first, then the other players ships do. Changing the wording to all of them engaging at once and then attacking opens a whole other can of worms, namely buffing Han (Crew) and nerfing Feedback Array.

Can the ship suffering Console Fire choose not to engage?

therefore not have to roll

3 minutes ago, Khsofsso said:

Can the ship suffering Console Fire choose not to engage?

No, you have to engage. Nothing in the entry states it's optional. On the contrary, even disarmed ships have to engage ("Disarmed ships still engage even though they cannot perform attacks.").

This topic is all over the place where Xwing rules are discussed. (Facebook thread)

My final take on that, until a proper FAQ is that the roll for the Console Fire crit happens BEFORE the ship engage (exactly as written on the card).

Therefore all the rules related to the Engagement phase are irrelevant since the ship is not even engaging.. the ship got its last damage before it can engage.

On 9/23/2018 at 2:48 PM, GermanBlackbot said:

No, you have to engage. Nothing in the entry states it's optional. On the contrary, even disarmed ships have to engage ("Disarmed ships still engage even though they cannot perform attacks.").

Is there a rules reference for having to engage? Does that mean that I cannot decline to shoot a target? That was one of my favorite ways for dealing with Quickdraw if I had a bad shot

19 minutes ago, AngryAlbatross said:

Is there a rules reference for having to engage? Does that mean that I cannot decline to shoot a target? That was one of my favorite ways for dealing with Quickdraw if I had a bad shot

You have to engage. You don't have to attack.

34 minutes ago, AngryAlbatross said:

Is there a rules reference for having to engage? Does that mean that I cannot decline to shoot a target? That was one of my favorite ways for dealing with Quickdraw if I had a bad shot

Per the rules, you engage then you may perform an attack.

Engaging is "activating in the Engagement Phase" basically. Its not actually attacking.

2 hours ago, Zircon said:

This topic is all over the place where Xwing rules are discussed. (Facebook thread)

My final take on that, until a proper FAQ is that the roll for the Console Fire crit happens BEFORE the ship engage (exactly as written on the card).

Therefore all the rules related to the Engagement phase are irrelevant since the ship is not even engaging.. the ship got its last damage before it can engage.

I would agree with this interpretation. The key parts of the relevant rules are:

Quote

"To represent that ships with the same initiative are essentially attacking at the same time, if a ship is destroyed during the Engagement Phase, it is removed after all ships that have the same initiative as the currently engaged ship have engaged."

" Before you engage , roll 1 attack die. On a hit result, suffer 1 hit damage. Action: Repair this card."

Since the effect takes place before you engage, there is no "currently engaged ship". Therefore simultaneous fire doesn't apply, and the ship would be removed before it gets to attack (technically before it gets to "engage", actually).

22 minutes ago, nashjaee said:

Since the effect takes place before you engage, there is no "currently engaged ship". Therefore simultaneous fire doesn't apply, and the ship would be removed before it gets to attack (technically before it gets to "engage", actually).

However, for the ship to even get to the "before you engage" step, you need to get to that ship's engagement initiative... meaning that you can't remove that ship until the end of that initiative bracket.

Say that I and my opponent both have a Initiative 4 ship with only 1 hull remaining, and we each have Console Fire. I have initiative. My ship checks for console fire, and rolls a blank. I then engage and open fire - a miss. His ship checks for console fire and rolls a hit, for one damage. Does he remove his ship, because he hasn't actually begin engaging yet, or does he attack?

Frankly, "before you engage" needs to be defined precisely in the Rules Reference Guide. I believe their intention is for the phrase to mean "As you begin your ship's engagement, before you do anything else,..." but that's just speculation on my part. And of course, we know that, usually, RAW =/= RAI .

26 minutes ago, emeraldbeacon said:

However, for the ship to even get to the "before you engage" step, you need to get to that ship's engagement initiative... meaning that you can't remove that ship until the end of that initiative bracket.

But you're not applying the Simultaneous Fire rule correctly in that case. If nothing is currently engaging, there is no simultaneous fire. I think you're applying a layer of abstraction that isn't there: there are no initiative brackets, although it can be helpful to think of it that way as a shorthand. Ships engage one at a time, where first player does all their I6 ships, then the other player does all their I6's. Then first player does all their I5's, etc., etc. The check for the Simultaneous Fire rule happens during each of these individual engagements.

Console Fire gets applied in between individual engagements.

27 minutes ago, emeraldbeacon said:

Say that I and my opponent both have a Initiative 4 ship with only 1 hull remaining, and we each have Console Fire. I have initiative. My ship checks for console fire, and rolls a blank. I then engage and open fire - a miss. His ship checks for console fire and rolls a hit, for one damage. Does he remove his ship, because he hasn't actually begin engaging yet, or does he attack?

He removes his ship because "[his ship] is removed after all ships that have the same initiative as the currently engaged ship have engaged." Since there is no currently engaged ship, it's removed immediately.

Is there a window where no one is engaged in the Engagement Phase? In other words, at most, wouldn't 'before one ship engages' just be while the previous one technically still is?

The rules reference says:
"...if a ship is destroyed during the Engagement Phase, it is removed after all ships that have the same initiative as the currently engaged ship have engaged."

It doesn't care where the damage comes from or which of the ships of the same Initiative is engaged. I'd say that if both ships are of the same Initiative, Console Fire waits to kill it.

On the other hand, I think it gets more complicated if we're talking about different Initiatives. Let's say an Initiative 5 pilot has a Console Fire and is at one Hull. Now, all of the Initiative 6 pilots engage and resolve. Now the Initiative 5 pilot with the Console Fire is about to engage. Is it still technically the Initiative 6 pilot's engagement? If so, then the Initiative 5 pilot should die immediately, because the damage was part of the Initiative 6 engagement, not their own. If "before you engage" means "you've engaged, but before you do anything else" then the pilot should survive for the rest of the Initiative 5 engagement.

I'd personally lean toward the latter, for one reason. Imagine that said Initiative 5 pilot did not have to be the first Initiative 5 pilot to engage (either because the other player had initiative or because this player had another Initiative 5 pilot). I think it would be an unintended edge case that picking that pilot first would immediately destroy them, but picking them later would save them until the end of that Initiative.

3 hours ago, nashjaee said:

But you're not applying the Simultaneous Fire rule correctly in that case. If nothing is currently engaging, there is no simultaneous fire. I think you're applying a layer of abstraction that isn't there: there are no initiative brackets, although it can be helpful to think of it that way as a shorthand. Ships engage one at a time, where first player does all their I6 ships, then the other player does all their I6's. Then first player does all their I5's, etc., etc. The check for the Simultaneous Fire rule happens during each of these individual engagements.

Console Fire gets applied in between individual engagements.

He removes his ship because "[his ship] is removed after all ships that have the same initiative as the currently engaged ship have engaged." Since there is no currently engaged ship, it's removed immediately.

Below is from the rules:

" If a ship is destroyed during the Engagement Phase, it is removed after
all ships that have the same initiative as the currently engaged ship have
engaged, which is called simultaneous fire" - page 9 of the rules reference.

"After a ship is destroyed in a phase other than the Engagement Phase, it
is removed from the game." Page 9 of the rules reference.

By your broken logic a ship destroyed by a Consol fire is then never removed from the game as per the second rule I quoted? It's the engagement phase so not removed and since you claim it does not follow the first section as it's not engaging then it can never be removed?

No it's removed after all ships that have the same initiative as it have engaged.

3 hours ago, Icelom said:

Below is from the rules:

" If a ship is destroyed during the Engagement Phase, it is removed after
all ships that have the same initiative as the currently engaged ship have
engaged, which is called simultaneous fire" - page 9 of the rules reference.

"After a ship is destroyed in a phase other than the Engagement Phase, it
is removed from the game." Page 9 of the rules reference.

By your broken logic a ship destroyed by a Consol fire is then never removed from the game as per the second rule I quoted? It's the engagement phase so not removed and since you claim it does not follow the first section as it's not engaging then it can never be removed?

No it's removed after all ships that have the same initiative as it have engaged.

Well, I’ve submitted a query. We’ll see what they say.

For what it’s worth: neither interpretation is perfect, really. It’s not the most clearly-written interaction. You’re right to point out that a literal reading might say that the ship is never removed (as silly as that reading is). But the other interpretation is checking for a condition that isn’t currently happening (an “engaging” ship). One of these lines needs to be reworded either way.