Vernacular from other CCGs - Definitions for those of us unfamiliar with them.

By Wytefang, in Warhammer: Invasion The Card Game

Bountyhunter said:

Certainly I think any new card game is going to have, at this point in the life-cycle of mass produced CCG's, a lot of word-baggage which is taken from game to game. I also play MMO's and certainly when I've played Warhammer, Conan, Star Trek Online and even City of Heroes/Villians I found a lot of the World of Warcraft terms were used in common parlance. I just think it's basic human nature to relate to things you already know and understand when faced with similar concepts, and while WH:I is a different game there are game mechanics which are both similar and in some cases identical. You might see a card which returns a target unit to someones hand, a MTG player see's boomer-rang, you might see Troll Vomit, a MTG player see's Wrath of God.

While I can see why this might be slightly dis-concerting to people who don't understand that words usage or the reference, I think to declare that the way other people view the world is something you dislike isn't particularly going to get you anywhere, particularly on a medium such as the internet where persuading someone about your point of view is like trying to catch air with your bare hands. I've played Magic, Shadowrun and the Raw Deal CCG over the years and certainly I relate to cards and see cards, though the lens of both this experience and the terminology used by these games. When I see Defend Tor Aendris, I see a potential soft-lock strategy. even though the words Soft-lock probably has little meaning to those people who haven't played Raw Deal.

One of the comments that I just let pass a few days back on these boards was someones stated "hatred" of the word Metagame. Which I thought was both un-informed and slightly narrow as the person clearly didn't understand the root of the word. The Meta-prefix (which roughly translates from Latin as: for beyond the) on the word game has a long background and was applied to a number of different environments before CCG's came along. The game beyond the game has applications to chess (where is you can predict an opponents strategy you can play accordingly from the start), poker, politics and military strategy. Indeed, the root of the entire field of mathematical Game Theory is trying to understand what happens when actors with different levels of knowledge about the "playing environment" interact.

As for words I commonly use from other CCG's (I won't go over ones people have already mentioned)

Soft-Lock: A strategy where a combination of cards means that while the opponent can act, there actions are pointless and futile. Think the already mentioned Defend Tor Aendris, with a Dragonmage on it, who has toughness and cannot be corrupted. If you have the cards to prevent unit removal as well, you effectively have a soft lock on the opponent. He can attack, flail against you, but ultimately it's pointless. The same with the Wake the Dragon+Gifts of Aenarion infinate combo.

Hard-Lock: This is were you literally counter every single action an opponent does. Everything. They try and play a card, you counter it, if they get it on the table, you kill it, or boomerrang it back to their hands. This strategy requires a lot of reversals in the game, which WH:I doesn't have at the moment, though Raw Deal Players will recognise this as Kane/Dude Love and MTG players will recognise this as a standard white/blue deck.

Switch: A deck which has a change point in it, at which point it will usually unleash it's kill mechanism. Lots of combinations here Step Up Switch is usually a stall deck which gets to a certain key number/resource point etc and then unleashes death. In WH:I the High Elf Stall/Repeater Bolter deck is an example of this. Step Down Switch is when you, at some point, turn on the gas of a more grinding strategy like inflitrate (millstone/dingus egg etc for those MTG players).

Goldfishing: Testing your deck against an imaginary non-responsive opponent to calculate kill times etc. You might practice the opening few turns on your Orc Speed deck for example and work on optimising that deck so that it can kill a goldfish in the first 3 turns of any game. Usually it's the first layer of testing you do before even thinking of showing the deck to your friends or going to a tournament. Unfortunately also a useless test for control/denial decks though you can modify the goldfish to be more responsive.

I could write more, but I'll just finish by re-iterating my point that "hating" the use of Magic terms is a pointless excerise in futility, especially on an internet messageboard. That said, that hasn't stopped many a message board trying in the past! gui%C3%B1o.gif

Also trying to get somone to stop viewing the world in a particular way due to their experirence isn't a great way to encourage new players, who may play other card games currently, to start playing WH:I. A FFG marketing slogan of "hey come play WH:I, it's great, but don't you dare utter your heathen MTG words dumbass!" isn't exactly what I can imagine a successful marketing campaign is built upon. To grow the game I would suggest acceptance and inclusive-ness or a variety of approaches rather than trying to define the language rigidly is a better goal.

You raise some excellent points but in fairness to many of us here who do (admittedly) dislike the other card terminology "baggage" (so to speak), no one here is saying that anyone cannot use the terms. Just be aware that among many of the seminal W:I players here, it's disliked (to some extent - I don't speak for everyone of course). There's nothing wrong with showcasing a loyalty and interest in W:I developing its own vernacular. In fact, I feel that it's a bit lazy to attempt to use old terms rather than coming up with some fun, creative new terms for this great game that we all love. :)

I'm pretty sure that most of us are more than happy to encourage new Magic players into the fold but it's a time-honored tradition that when you join a unique or new social grouping (such as this game's community) that you realize the need to adjust to THAT game's idiosyncrasies rather than the other way around. ;) I shouldn't have to adjust my vernacular usage to conform to a game that I have little interest in nor ever plan to play and I don't think it's fair to ask anyone else to do the same. What happens here is that previous Magic users come in (take F7Eleven, for example, not to pick on him as he's come around in a big way as of late...) and bring with them a bit of arrogance about playing Magic - as if that alone should make them more informed or better players or more clever CCG gamers due to their mere involvement with M:TG. That's uncool in my book and always will be. :(

If stressing the need for the development of our own special vernacular, one that is more suited to our particular game's theme and gameplay feel means that we have less of the cocky types of players here, I'm fine with that. I'd rather have the game fail earlier due to a lack of players than have to deal with a fanbase full of jerks (luckily I've not seen too many here of that ilk so far) and have a game with a longer life. Granted that's a hypothetical perspective but one that concerns me (and I know a few others here who definitely feel the same way).

Hopefully that makes sense...

darkdeal said:

Hard-Lock is a lock on the game that cannot be gotten around. There are currently no hard-lock strategies in W:I to my knowledge. For M:tG players, this is like Painter's Servant + Iona. Basically makes it so your opponent can't play any cards for the rest of the game.

Ugh. Sounds dreadful. Hopefully we never have something like that show up in W:I. Sounds utterly broken.

What is a sideboard? I have heard this term used and seen cards included in decks for a sideboard, but I'm not sure I really get it's purpose or where it comes from.

Atretes said:

What is a sideboard? I have heard this term used and seen cards included in decks for a sideboard, but I'm not sure I really get it's purpose or where it comes from.

It is a set number of cards that you can have off to the side when you construct a deck. In a match play system (best of 3 or 5 or whatever), after game 1, you can substitute cards in your main deck for some of the cards in the sideboard to give you a better chance of winning games 2 or 3. It makes it so that exceedingly narrow cards can actually see play and therefore it opens up more design space for cards to be made. They can't really make a card that says deal 3 damage to a chaos unit and expect it to see any play whatsoever unless they introduce a sideboard option.

Specifics, sideboards are always the same number of cards for everyone, 15 cards in the case of M:tG. You can not side in cards in game 1 even if you happen to know what the opponent is playing and you have to put your deck back to its original state at the start of each new match.

Wytefang said:

darkdeal said:

Hard-Lock is a lock on the game that cannot be gotten around. There are currently no hard-lock strategies in W:I to my knowledge. For M:tG players, this is like Painter's Servant + Iona. Basically makes it so your opponent can't play any cards for the rest of the game.

Ugh. Sounds dreadful. Hopefully we never have something like that show up in W:I. Sounds utterly broken.

Wytefang said:

darkdeal said:

Hard-Lock is a lock on the game that cannot be gotten around. There are currently no hard-lock strategies in W:I to my knowledge. For M:tG players, this is like Painter's Servant + Iona. Basically makes it so your opponent can't play any cards for the rest of the game.

Ugh. Sounds dreadful. Hopefully we never have something like that show up in W:I. Sounds utterly broken.

Thankfully these ocurrences don't happen very often, since those hard-locks almost always need a deck built around them, and they have to draw and actually play the combo pieces. In the above example both cards could be dealt with before your opponent plays the other one... also cards already in play may broke the lock.

Other "dreadfull" thing in magic is the possibility of infinite game winning combos. I really dislike those aspect, and I hope that will never happen in WH:I ...

Hovewer...

I also hoped, that since this is a game about two armies facing another unitless combodecks won't appear... and I already seen some. I also hoped for no hard counters in the game, and we have High Elf's Disdain. So now nothing is sure my friends. gui%C3%B1o.gif

Wytefang said:

Bountyhunter said:

Certainly I think any new card game is going to have, at this point in the life-cycle of mass produced CCG's, a lot of word-baggage which is taken from game to game. I also play MMO's and certainly when I've played Warhammer, Conan, Star Trek Online and even City of Heroes/Villians I found a lot of the World of Warcraft terms were used in common parlance. I just think it's basic human nature to relate to things you already know and understand when faced with similar concepts, and while WH:I is a different game there are game mechanics which are both similar and in some cases identical. You might see a card which returns a target unit to someones hand, a MTG player see's boomer-rang, you might see Troll Vomit, a MTG player see's Wrath of God.

While I can see why this might be slightly dis-concerting to people who don't understand that words usage or the reference, I think to declare that the way other people view the world is something you dislike isn't particularly going to get you anywhere, particularly on a medium such as the internet where persuading someone about your point of view is like trying to catch air with your bare hands. I've played Magic, Shadowrun and the Raw Deal CCG over the years and certainly I relate to cards and see cards, though the lens of both this experience and the terminology used by these games. When I see Defend Tor Aendris, I see a potential soft-lock strategy. even though the words Soft-lock probably has little meaning to those people who haven't played Raw Deal.

One of the comments that I just let pass a few days back on these boards was someones stated "hatred" of the word Metagame. Which I thought was both un-informed and slightly narrow as the person clearly didn't understand the root of the word. The Meta-prefix (which roughly translates from Latin as: for beyond the) on the word game has a long background and was applied to a number of different environments before CCG's came along. The game beyond the game has applications to chess (where is you can predict an opponents strategy you can play accordingly from the start), poker, politics and military strategy. Indeed, the root of the entire field of mathematical Game Theory is trying to understand what happens when actors with different levels of knowledge about the "playing environment" interact.

As for words I commonly use from other CCG's (I won't go over ones people have already mentioned)

Soft-Lock: A strategy where a combination of cards means that while the opponent can act, there actions are pointless and futile. Think the already mentioned Defend Tor Aendris, with a Dragonmage on it, who has toughness and cannot be corrupted. If you have the cards to prevent unit removal as well, you effectively have a soft lock on the opponent. He can attack, flail against you, but ultimately it's pointless. The same with the Wake the Dragon+Gifts of Aenarion infinate combo.

Hard-Lock: This is were you literally counter every single action an opponent does. Everything. They try and play a card, you counter it, if they get it on the table, you kill it, or boomerrang it back to their hands. This strategy requires a lot of reversals in the game, which WH:I doesn't have at the moment, though Raw Deal Players will recognise this as Kane/Dude Love and MTG players will recognise this as a standard white/blue deck.

Switch: A deck which has a change point in it, at which point it will usually unleash it's kill mechanism. Lots of combinations here Step Up Switch is usually a stall deck which gets to a certain key number/resource point etc and then unleashes death. In WH:I the High Elf Stall/Repeater Bolter deck is an example of this. Step Down Switch is when you, at some point, turn on the gas of a more grinding strategy like inflitrate (millstone/dingus egg etc for those MTG players).

Goldfishing: Testing your deck against an imaginary non-responsive opponent to calculate kill times etc. You might practice the opening few turns on your Orc Speed deck for example and work on optimising that deck so that it can kill a goldfish in the first 3 turns of any game. Usually it's the first layer of testing you do before even thinking of showing the deck to your friends or going to a tournament. Unfortunately also a useless test for control/denial decks though you can modify the goldfish to be more responsive.

I could write more, but I'll just finish by re-iterating my point that "hating" the use of Magic terms is a pointless excerise in futility, especially on an internet messageboard. That said, that hasn't stopped many a message board trying in the past! gui%C3%B1o.gif

Also trying to get somone to stop viewing the world in a particular way due to their experirence isn't a great way to encourage new players, who may play other card games currently, to start playing WH:I. A FFG marketing slogan of "hey come play WH:I, it's great, but don't you dare utter your heathen MTG words dumbass!" isn't exactly what I can imagine a successful marketing campaign is built upon. To grow the game I would suggest acceptance and inclusive-ness or a variety of approaches rather than trying to define the language rigidly is a better goal.

You raise some excellent points but in fairness to many of us here who do (admittedly) dislike the other card terminology "baggage" (so to speak), no one here is saying that anyone cannot use the terms. Just be aware that among many of the seminal W:I players here, it's disliked (to some extent - I don't speak for everyone of course). There's nothing wrong with showcasing a loyalty and interest in W:I developing its own vernacular. In fact, I feel that it's a bit lazy to attempt to use old terms rather than coming up with some fun, creative new terms for this great game that we all love. :)

I'm pretty sure that most of us are more than happy to encourage new Magic players into the fold but it's a time-honored tradition that when you join a unique or new social grouping (such as this game's community) that you realize the need to adjust to THAT game's idiosyncrasies rather than the other way around. ;) I shouldn't have to adjust my vernacular usage to conform to a game that I have little interest in nor ever plan to play and I don't think it's fair to ask anyone else to do the same. What happens here is that previous Magic users come in (take F7Eleven, for example, not to pick on him as he's come around in a big way as of late...) and bring with them a bit of arrogance about playing Magic - as if that alone should make them more informed or better players or more clever CCG gamers due to their mere involvement with M:TG. That's uncool in my book and always will be. :(

If stressing the need for the development of our own special vernacular, one that is more suited to our particular game's theme and gameplay feel means that we have less of the cocky types of players here, I'm fine with that. I'd rather have the game fail earlier due to a lack of players than have to deal with a fanbase full of jerks (luckily I've not seen too many here of that ilk so far) and have a game with a longer life. Granted that's a hypothetical perspective but one that concerns me (and I know a few others here who definitely feel the same way).

Hopefully that makes sense...

@Bountyhunter

Excellent post! You echo exactly how I feel about this issue. It is encouraging to know that mature players are into this game.

I’ve played Magic since its start. Now my playgroup and I are heavily into W:I and we have effectively stopped playing Magic.

@Wytefang

“seminal W:I players” are you kidding me? Have you appointed yourself to the Great Seer Council, Protecting All Things Warhammer: Invasion? I for one am glad you have no influence over this game. What is lazy is not understanding the origins of terms, and blaming everything on “cocky” Magic players.

“time-honored tradition” are you kidding me, again? I bet there are far more former Magic players then not. Why should they conform to how you see things? Again, you are not the W:I Standards Police, no one appointed you so stop acting like it.

“I’d rather have the game fail earlier due to a lack of players than have to deal with a fanbase full of jerks”. Are you kidding me, for a third time? Congratulations, you have just become what you most hate! I entirely disagree with your statement. For W:I to succeed it needs one thing: sales. The largest market for W:I is former Magic players. Every time you alienate Magic players you are directly hurting this game. Stop it! Actually everyone I’ve met that plays W:I, started with Magic.

Wow, could you miss my points much more badly than you did?

No one is appointing anyone as anything - however no one enjoys having new customers show up to an online forum and game community and act like they own or run the place simply because they played some other long-running card game - specifically referring to vernacular and attitudes (again see Curator's thread on this same page with F7eleven's comments for reference).

Scarow also said, "“time-honored tradition” are you kidding me, again? I bet there are far more former Magic players then not. Why should they conform to how you see things? Again, you are not the W:I Standards Police, no one appointed you so stop acting like it."

I'm not speaking for any W:I standards police, I'm speaking as my own player and I would wager for quite a few W:I gamers here (certainly not all of them - never made that claim so feel free to stop putting words in my mouth).

Why should we care how many former Magic players show up here? Should that give you some unearned "clout" that you can toss about around here? Certainly not. Why should we conform to how they see things or to the vernacular they've developed? We shouldn't have to, either.

Get off your high-horse, actually read what is being written and make a modicum of effort to make yourself welcome to a community before acting like you're acting already. Good grief. :(

Scarow said:

@Bountyhunter

Excellent post! You echo exactly how I feel about this issue. It is encouraging to know that mature players are into this game.

I’ve played Magic since its start. Now my playgroup and I are heavily into W:I and we have effectively stopped playing Magic.

@Wytefang

“seminal W:I players” are you kidding me? Have you appointed yourself to the Great Seer Council, Protecting All Things Warhammer: Invasion? I for one am glad you have no influence over this game. What is lazy is not understanding the origins of terms, and blaming everything on “cocky” Magic players.

“time-honored tradition” are you kidding me, again? I bet there are far more former Magic players then not. Why should they conform to how you see things? Again, you are not the W:I Standards Police, no one appointed you so stop acting like it.

“I’d rather have the game fail earlier due to a lack of players than have to deal with a fanbase full of jerks”. Are you kidding me, for a third time? Congratulations, you have just become what you most hate! I entirely disagree with your statement. For W:I to succeed it needs one thing: sales. The largest market for W:I is former Magic players. Every time you alienate Magic players you are directly hurting this game. Stop it! Actually everyone I’ve met that plays W:I, started with Magic.

LOL. Word!!

Him and that Dormouse guy go around acting like they own this place. At least the dormouse guy tries to answer rules questions.

people have also missed time walk and fog.

time walk was a card that gave you a extra turn, so anything that effectivly gives you anthoer turn (like turn 1 lobber crew when they have made a only 1 guy) is a time walk.

fog is when you prevent all damage this turn like the dwarf and h elf one.

agg said:

people have also missed time walk and fog.

time walk was a card that gave you a extra turn, so anything that effectivly gives you anthoer turn (like turn 1 lobber crew when they have made a only 1 guy) is a time walk.

fog is when you prevent all damage this turn like the dwarf and h elf one.

Now those I have not heard. Thanks for posting them. :)

f7eleven said:

Scarow said:

@Bountyhunter

Excellent post! You echo exactly how I feel about this issue. It is encouraging to know that mature players are into this game.

I’ve played Magic since its start. Now my playgroup and I are heavily into W:I and we have effectively stopped playing Magic.

@Wytefang

“seminal W:I players” are you kidding me? Have you appointed yourself to the Great Seer Council, Protecting All Things Warhammer: Invasion? I for one am glad you have no influence over this game. What is lazy is not understanding the origins of terms, and blaming everything on “cocky” Magic players.

“time-honored tradition” are you kidding me, again? I bet there are far more former Magic players then not. Why should they conform to how you see things? Again, you are not the W:I Standards Police, no one appointed you so stop acting like it.

“I’d rather have the game fail earlier due to a lack of players than have to deal with a fanbase full of jerks”. Are you kidding me, for a third time? Congratulations, you have just become what you most hate! I entirely disagree with your statement. For W:I to succeed it needs one thing: sales. The largest market for W:I is former Magic players. Every time you alienate Magic players you are directly hurting this game. Stop it! Actually everyone I’ve met that plays W:I, started with Magic.

LOL. Word!!

Him and that Dormouse guy go around acting like they own this place. At least the dormouse guy tries to answer rules questions.

You already showed your true colors in that other thread when you insulted the entire site - not too many of us are likely to listen too terribly closely to your remarks at this point. But you have proved my points rather well, ironically. ;)

Don't feed the trolls Wytefang.

I have never heard anyone refer to an effect in W:I as a fog or timewalk. I honestly think that if people are playing W:I with that much focus on M:tG, then they probably aren't really that serious about playing W:I to the point of buying their own stuff. I have a friend like that and I am to the point where I am just going to cut him off because I don't want to support him in this game. Realistically, if a player were even remotely serious about playing this game they would take the time to learn the language of W:I and not just compare everything to M:tG or some other game. Corruption vs Tap for example, there is absolutely no reason to ever say "tap" in W:I.

There's nothing wrong with showcasing a loyalty and interest in W:I developing its own vernacular. In fact, I feel that it's a bit lazy to attempt to use old terms rather than coming up with some fun, creative new terms for this great game that we all love. :)

I can't fault you for enthusiam at the very least. You clearly are very into the WH:I game, and by the sheer volume of postings you've made on these boards clearly you're at the very least a vocal advocate of the game, which, as someone who also enjoys the game, makes it difficult for me to fault that. While enthusiasm and creativity is a worthy goal, I feel the development of a good community of players isn't about rigid definitions of what is acceptable language, it's about a wider acceptance, and creating a friendly place which open debate is welcomed and about creating a forum were users feel able to express their views without fear of getting shouted down.

it's a time-honored tradition that when you join a unique or new social grouping (such as this game's community) that you realize the need to adjust to THAT game's idiosyncrasies rather than the other way around. ;)

The last time honoured tradition I was a part of was in my Uni days and that nearly led to me in hospital getting my stomach pumped. I hope the WH:I community forum can come to a less painful initiation.gui%C3%B1o.gifMore seroiusly, while I see the point you are trying to make, I feel that the only social grouping that people actually want to be a part of is a good social grouping.

darkdeal said:

It is a set number of cards that you can have off to the side when you construct a deck. In a match play system (best of 3 or 5 or whatever), after game 1, you can substitute cards in your main deck for some of the cards in the sideboard to give you a better chance of winning games 2 or 3. It makes it so that exceedingly narrow cards can actually see play and therefore it opens up more design space for cards to be made. They can't really make a card that says deal 3 damage to a chaos unit and expect it to see any play whatsoever unless they introduce a sideboard option.

A sideboard may very well chase me away from this game. It may "open up more design space" but it is lazy design space full of silver bullet cards. It producers players and decks with an extremely narrow focus trusting the sideboard to give flexibility and to solve bad match-ups because of lack of diversity, strategic planning, and tactical adaption.

I'd rather good general cards, and when something starts accruing a lot of victories to produce cards that mitigate it rather than cards which act as hard counters to it. 3 Damage to a Chaos unit would be a terrible way to solve a bad match up of an extremely limited deck. Better ways would be to produce cards which limit the Chaos players ability to run over them. Something that did not allow attachments, or could be uncorrupted for two resources, etc.

Building a deck that is well rounded is not THAT hard, it just requires that you build with diversity in mind and that you play with a better eye towards tactical precision rather than assuming that a loss now can be solved by turning to cards that probably should have been in your deck to begin with.

I agree that sideboards are probably a bad idea in W:I

and because of a lack of sideboards, I would prefer a tournament layout with 1 game matches, but you play more matches in a tourney. It puts a focus on deckbuilders to build a more consistent deck rather than a less consistent one that can just blow someone out randomly.

I don't act like I own the place f7eleven, I act like I've been here since before the game was generally available... and I have been, but I'm not the only one so it doesn't make me that special. I do try and answer rules questions, my track record is pretty decent. Just because I called you on the carpet for your past statements does not mean I see myself in a position of power or ownership above or beyond of every other member. Nor does it mean I treat you any differently than anyone else once the moment/thread is over.

I don't hate on M:tG, I hate on people with over developed sense of competition formed by an under-developed sense of worth. I have met more than my fair share of people like that in my Magic Days, between them and kids whose decks cost as much as my rent, I just stopped having fun with it. There are still a lot of things about the game I enjoy but I won't ever play it seriously again.

Of course I've run across those same kinds of people in Martial Arts, Law School, the Marines, and very nearly every other bar here in Dallas. There is no shortage of people who feel that knocking someone down and putting their boot on that poor souls neck is the way to prove themselves, so it certainly is not unique to Magic players, nor do I feel they have significantly more representation of that type than the other things I listed. Amongst the Magic players I've met is my current roommate a former big money tourney player, and an incredibly nice guy, and dozens of amazing, genuine, caring, and funny men and women, and some really squared away and respectful kids.

I don't cringe or rant when someone uses a Magic term, or one from an outside game (I do it too), though if there is an in game term, or one which is popolar in the other LCGs, I'll opt for it, or gently suggest that term as a replacement. The reason is different than Wytefang's though it has been touched on here, language has the ability to color our experience, create expectation, and crystallize thought patterns. The more a player tries to force W:I into their notions of what M:tG is the more they artificially limit themselves, and set themselves up for failed expectations. It is incredibly interesting stuff though probably a little esoteric to discuss in this specific thread. I can suggest some really interesting books if anyone is interested in neuro-linguistic programming.

Bountyhunter said:

There's nothing wrong with showcasing a loyalty and interest in W:I developing its own vernacular. In fact, I feel that it's a bit lazy to attempt to use old terms rather than coming up with some fun, creative new terms for this great game that we all love. :)

I can't fault you for enthusiam at the very least. You clearly are very into the WH:I game, and by the sheer volume of postings you've made on these boards clearly you're at the very least a vocal advocate of the game, which, as someone who also enjoys the game, makes it difficult for me to fault that. While enthusiasm and creativity is a worthy goal, I feel the development of a good community of players isn't about rigid definitions of what is acceptable language, it's about a wider acceptance, and creating a friendly place which open debate is welcomed and about creating a forum were users feel able to express their views without fear of getting shouted down.

it's a time-honored tradition that when you join a unique or new social grouping (such as this game's community) that you realize the need to adjust to THAT game's idiosyncrasies rather than the other way around. ;)

The last time honoured tradition I was a part of was in my Uni days and that nearly led to me in hospital getting my stomach pumped. I hope the WH:I community forum can come to a less painful initiation.gui%C3%B1o.gifMore seroiusly, while I see the point you are trying to make, I feel that the only social grouping that people actually want to be a part of is a good social grouping.


Agreed. Once again your enjoyable sense of humor and great attitude go a long way towards making your point. Thank you. :)


Also, Dormouse's eloquent post sums things up perfectly, as usual. In the immortal words of those great and most noble of men, Bill and Ted, "Be excellent to one another." ::: bow ::::

Overseer Lazarus said:

Well said. In my local store, in particular, nearly everyone I teach this game to is a Magic player, so it comes up all the time. The really good news is that all 6 people that I've taught in the last week are either playing now or are buying stuff on their next paycheck. So, clearly, this li'l game's got sick game, son!

Hey Laz

How many people do you have playing? Is there a particular weeknight when the Warhammer crowd games? I usually play at Cool Stuff on Wednesday nights but our meta is kind of small (3 regular players and 2-3 semi regular). Wouldn't mind playing some new decks.

Wytefang said:

Wow, could you miss my points much more badly than you did?

No one is appointing anyone as anything - however no one enjoys having new customers show up to an online forum and game community and act like they own or run the place simply because they played some other long-running card game - specifically referring to vernacular and attitudes (again see Curator's thread on this same page with F7eleven's comments for reference).

Scarow also said, "“time-honored tradition” are you kidding me, again? I bet there are far more former Magic players then not. Why should they conform to how you see things? Again, you are not the W:I Standards Police, no one appointed you so stop acting like it."

I'm not speaking for any W:I standards police, I'm speaking as my own player and I would wager for quite a few W:I gamers here (certainly not all of them - never made that claim so feel free to stop putting words in my mouth).

Why should we care how many former Magic players show up here? Should that give you some unearned "clout" that you can toss about around here? Certainly not. Why should we conform to how they see things or to the vernacular they've developed? We shouldn't have to, either.

Get off your high-horse, actually read what is being written and make a modicum of effort to make yourself welcome to a community before acting like you're acting already. Good grief. :(

Wytefang said:

Wow, could you miss my points much more badly than you did?

No one is appointing anyone as anything - however no one enjoys having new customers show up to an online forum and game community and act like they own or run the place simply because they played some other long-running card game - specifically referring to vernacular and attitudes (again see Curator's thread on this same page with F7eleven's comments for reference).

Scarow also said, "“time-honored tradition” are you kidding me, again? I bet there are far more former Magic players then not. Why should they conform to how you see things? Again, you are not the W:I Standards Police, no one appointed you so stop acting like it."

I'm not speaking for any W:I standards police, I'm speaking as my own player and I would wager for quite a few W:I gamers here (certainly not all of them - never made that claim so feel free to stop putting words in my mouth).

Why should we care how many former Magic players show up here? Should that give you some unearned "clout" that you can toss about around here? Certainly not. Why should we conform to how they see things or to the vernacular they've developed? We shouldn't have to, either.

Get off your high-horse, actually read what is being written and make a modicum of effort to make yourself welcome to a community before acting like you're acting already. Good grief. :(

You said, “I’d rather have the game fail earlier due to a lack of players than have to deal with a fanbase full of jerks” That is high-horsery at its finest! And how is it helpful or welcoming?

The paradox of the proverbial high-horse is to realize you're on it you first have to get off.

Instead of being defensive, perhaps you should reread your own post.

In the early to mid nineties, while in high school, I picked up Magic and quickly fell in love with the game. I began with Revised and pretty much was washed out by the end of Ice Age / beginning of Mirage. Every once and a while I would walk into my FLGS and check out the new Magic set and look through a binder of the singles to get an idea of the new cards, and to see if I was interested in getting back into it. I would listen to the hard core magic players, who must have been living in the store, talk about Denial, Aggro, Tempo, etc. not to mention the whole type 1 / type 2 / block constructed lingo that I had very little understanding of. Occasionally I would hear a card title that I remembered and could sort of piece out a bit of the conversation but in the end I walked out of the store without getting back into it, part of it the cost aspect but part also because of the incredibly cryptic speak of "those in the know" when they talk about the game.

Bringing the discussion back to Warhammer Invasion, I completely understand the tendency to use terms to describe common deck themes or achetypes but when those terms are ripped straight from cards from another game, or in the case of the Sligh deck a player of that game, it definitely brings an elitism into this game that can scare off new or potential players unfamiliar with the terms that have nothing to do with Warhammer Invasion.

From the Merriam-Webster website: community 1 : a unified body of individuals; e : a group linked by a common policy f : a body of persons or nations having a common history or common social, economic, and political interests (I removed the definitions referring to groups of people living in close proximity to each other since they clearly don't apply here).

Exactly how is the muted flame-war going on here even remotely indicative of a community? We bandy that term about loosely, but too often misapply it. I've just "listened" ever since my lighthearted post on tapping and it's million synonyms, and this has devolved (as gamer forums are wont to do) into a dramatic reenactment of The Star-Bellied Sneetches (read your Seuss!cool.gif). I'm not gonna start singin' Kumbaya or anything, believe that. But whoever calls this a community would do well to contribute to its vitality. Working for WotC, I learned really quickly that the nature of gamers as a whole is one of severe passive-aggressiveness. We love to belong to something, to be in on things. But then we'll cannibalize each other at the of a hat because someone else isn't "different" in the way that we are. For Pete's sake, why hang our expectations on others? I suppose I could fire off into some diatribe about pride and insecurity, but the fact of the matter is, competitive people sometimes like to compete in any area they can, including gratuitious argument. And I suppose to admonish someone about berating people for not behaving as they do would be a mite hypocritical of me, eh? Still, I think it would be appropriate to remember that this game (and its attendant "community") is still maturing, and lots of new and potential players may be impacted by the environment on these boards. Just something to consider.

All right, I'm done. Where's the food?

eh.

this thread is turning into another fiasco much like the one that happened with that bullhalin (spelling) guy.

Scarow said:

Wytefang said:

Wow, could you miss my points much more badly than you did?

No one is appointing anyone as anything - however no one enjoys having new customers show up to an online forum and game community and act like they own or run the place simply because they played some other long-running card game - specifically referring to vernacular and attitudes (again see Curator's thread on this same page with F7eleven's comments for reference).

Scarow also said, "“time-honored tradition” are you kidding me, again? I bet there are far more former Magic players then not. Why should they conform to how you see things? Again, you are not the W:I Standards Police, no one appointed you so stop acting like it."

I'm not speaking for any W:I standards police, I'm speaking as my own player and I would wager for quite a few W:I gamers here (certainly not all of them - never made that claim so feel free to stop putting words in my mouth).

Why should we care how many former Magic players show up here? Should that give you some unearned "clout" that you can toss about around here? Certainly not. Why should we conform to how they see things or to the vernacular they've developed? We shouldn't have to, either.

Get off your high-horse, actually read what is being written and make a modicum of effort to make yourself welcome to a community before acting like you're acting already. Good grief. :(

Wytefang said:

Wow, could you miss my points much more badly than you did?

No one is appointing anyone as anything - however no one enjoys having new customers show up to an online forum and game community and act like they own or run the place simply because they played some other long-running card game - specifically referring to vernacular and attitudes (again see Curator's thread on this same page with F7eleven's comments for reference).

Scarow also said, "“time-honored tradition” are you kidding me, again? I bet there are far more former Magic players then not. Why should they conform to how you see things? Again, you are not the W:I Standards Police, no one appointed you so stop acting like it."

I'm not speaking for any W:I standards police, I'm speaking as my own player and I would wager for quite a few W:I gamers here (certainly not all of them - never made that claim so feel free to stop putting words in my mouth).

Why should we care how many former Magic players show up here? Should that give you some unearned "clout" that you can toss about around here? Certainly not. Why should we conform to how they see things or to the vernacular they've developed? We shouldn't have to, either.

Get off your high-horse, actually read what is being written and make a modicum of effort to make yourself welcome to a community before acting like you're acting already. Good grief. :(

You said, “I’d rather have the game fail earlier due to a lack of players than have to deal with a fanbase full of jerks” That is high-horsery at its finest! And how is it helpful or welcoming?

The paradox of the proverbial high-horse is to realize you're on it you first have to get off.

Instead of being defensive, perhaps you should reread your own post.

Actually you came off as a bit more defensive (imho) but I suspect that we're not going to see eye-to-eye on this. That sentence, that you've quoted from me, is meant to illustrate (via some hyperbolic posturing) just how much I suspect that we'd all prefer to avoid this game's community (at least the online one) from being flooded with know-it-all jerkwads. I don't think that's being on a high-horse at all - that's a statement of strong desire, nothing more. Putting a strong statement out in the public eye against something doesn't necessarily mean you're "on a high horse." Not by a long-shot. By that logic, no one could ever take any kind of stand against anything lest they be judged similarly.

The gist of my points is still valid, I feel, and apparently agreed with by some other lurkers here (based on some private messages I've received here) - if you're new, regardless of what other games you come from, be ready to start fresh - to join a new group of diehard fans who are eager to create a new environment both linguistically (to some extent) and creatively. What worked for your other games, probably only partially works here (or perhaps not at all). When you join a new community, either online or in real life, you enter cautiously and politely (at least most people do, thankfully) with respect to those around you. You don't, however, come tromping in and expect the community that you wish to join to adapt to you. That's never going to go over really well. :(

I've said my piece, time to let it lie. Let's move on to discussing the vernacular other games have utilized some more - there's some very interesting usages out there.

Overseer Lazarus said:

From the Merriam-Webster website: community 1 : a unified body of individuals; e : a group linked by a common policy f : a body of persons or nations having a common history or common social, economic, and political interests (I removed the definitions referring to groups of people living in close proximity to each other since they clearly don't apply here).

Exactly how is the muted flame-war going on here even remotely indicative of a community? We bandy that term about loosely, but too often misapply it. I've just "listened" ever since my lighthearted post on tapping and it's million synonyms, and this has devolved (as gamer forums are wont to do) into a dramatic reenactment of The Star-Bellied Sneetches (read your Seuss!cool.gif). I'm not gonna start singin' Kumbaya or anything, believe that. But whoever calls this a community would do well to contribute to its vitality. Working for WotC, I learned really quickly that the nature of gamers as a whole is one of severe passive-aggressiveness. We love to belong to something, to be in on things. But then we'll cannibalize each other at the of a hat because someone else isn't "different" in the way that we are. For Pete's sake, why hang our expectations on others? I suppose I could fire off into some diatribe about pride and insecurity, but the fact of the matter is, competitive people sometimes like to compete in any area they can, including gratuitious argument. And I suppose to admonish someone about berating people for not behaving as they do would be a mite hypocritical of me, eh? Still, I think it would be appropriate to remember that this game (and its attendant "community") is still maturing, and lots of new and potential players may be impacted by the environment on these boards. Just something to consider.

All right, I'm done. Where's the food?

Your post makes me wonder how many other former industry employees we have here? What did you do for WotC? I was a Line Coordinator for FFG back in 2008 and wrote for PC Gamer from 2006-2008. Do we have any other industry types here? (Just curious.)

Excellent points, btw...we probably need to just move on and just work harder to get along. :)

im not sure why using magic terms is a bad thing. ive used magic terms in a lot of games and sometimes it helps when your describing things.

i also dont really play any magic or own any cards for magic so its not like ive come from that background, its just that game came first and so its natural when cards came from that game to describe new cards that do a simular thing. you even see it in magic

" hey whats that new jace do?"

"oh it camn fate seal or brain storm as its forst two options"

here people have described what a new card does very quickly without the need to explain what a lot of cards do with out having to read the card out in full, now im mnot saying thats useful if you dont know what they do or that you have to use it but if its there why not it can save time.

terms like fog, time walk , disruption, tempo, tutor, control, mid range, combo, etc........ all help if both people are assessing a situation, but obv are no good if one or both do not know what they mean.

it seems like learning a new language at times and if you dont want to know, cool dont bother, but some might and thats fine too!

as for side boards i like them because they give you more scope to use narrow cards, also i think the game is so fast at the moment that you might need to replace 'dead' draws from you deck in game 2 and 3 to help you win i dont see the problem with that..