25 minutes ago, Kieransi said:

Ok. Extended.

I played a game where I flew TIE Punishers against E-Wings and A-Wings. Both lists were built as well as possible, my opponent, also a podcaster, played very well, and I tabled him.

I played two games where my opponent flew Boba Fett with 0-0-0, Fenn, and some of the other cheap filler ships not available to scum in extended. Lost badly both times.

I badly tabled double YT-2400s.

I badly tabled Han/B-Wings with a Z-95 swarm.

I haven't played or seen a single game of extended (over 20 games) that was actually that balanced.

Meanwhile, in limited format, I lost to TIE Swarm, and lost once playing it myself. It's not that scary really. All my games of 2.0-only (around 20) have been really fun and balanced.

Wait, so you're bashing jank lists together and thats made you think the format isn't balanced?

That's just silly.

If you judge 2nd editition extended just because you think tabling two yt2400s is some kind of feat, you're painting a very inaccurate picture

I could also run nonsense in standard with an overloaded Vader or Luke and then I could lose horribly and claim the format is broken. But it's too limited a sample size and too silly a list selection to take seriously

Just now, Embir82 said:

Nice strawman.

Now show me cards in extended version that are such a shining example of bad design like TLT, Miranda Doni or Sabine crew card were 1.0.

Genius (high-information autodamage)

Trajectory Simulator (bombs that are difficult to avoid without tremendous board position cost)

Homing Missiles (autodamage, situational card that works best only in certain matchups, therefore leads to rock-paper-scissors and games lost or won due to lucky/unlucky matchups)

Just to name a few...

1 minute ago, Kieransi said:

Homing Missiles (autodamage, situational card that works best only in certain matchups, therefore leads to rock-paper-scissors and games lost or won due to lucky/unlucky matchups)

If you seriously think that Homing Missiless are design on the level of Sabine crew card or TLT then it comes as no suprise why your ideas how tournament scene should look are ridiculous.

Just now, ficklegreendice said:

Wait, so you're bashing jank lists together and thats made you think the format isn't balanced?

That's just silly.

If you judge 2nd editition extended just because you think tabling two yt2400s is some kind of feat, you're painting a very inaccurate picture

I could also run nonsense in standard with an overloaded Vader or Luke and then I could lose horribly and claim the format is broken. But it's too limited a sample size and too silly a list selection to take seriously

I don't see why what I'm doing is different than what all of you are doing.

I've said from the start that I don't want to use curcumstantial evidence, and yet since then three different people asked for my evidence/experience, so I provided it.

What is your evidence or support for extended being balanced? What is your evidence for second Edition only not being balanced? How many games have you played of either?

What is anyone's evidence for the claims they are making about new players' lists being "balanced" in the extended format?

The people on your side of the debate who have already said "yeah, new players' lists will be worse but it doesn't matter because they're bad at the game anyway" seem to have undermined your point here.

Just now, Embir82 said:

If you seriously think that Homing Missiless are design on the level of Sabine crew card or TLT then it comes as no suprise why your ideas how tournament scene should look are ridiculous.

You didn't ask for examples of things on par with Sabine or TLT. You asked for "shining examples of bad game design".

Homing Missiles are bad game design.

1 minute ago, Kieransi said:

What is your evidence or support for extended being balanced? What is your evidence for second Edition only not being balanced? How many games have you played of either?

OK, if you don't want to use anecdotal evidence maybe wait until the first round of Hyperspace Trials have taken place and we have some actual, physical, useful data on 2nd edition OP events.

Because until then all you're doing is shouting into a void and daring people to disagree with you.

Ancedotal evidence here is FAR more games with far greater list variety and outcomes

If you actually try to build to a ship's strengths rather than fielding overloaded craft, you can do well with a LOT of ship selections

Just have to realize that things actually die in second edition, so being silly about overloading upgrades on very few ships is not something you want to do unless you're an absolute wizard with them

****, I just ran into the supposedly "broken" traj simulator. I ate FIVE damage from bombs. Still won, because I know how fragile the Punisher/SCURRG are and how quickly they fold to even a little bit of concetrated firepower

happily traded my 46 point kimoglia for that Punisher

1 minute ago, FTS Gecko said:

OK, if you don't want to use anecdotal evidence maybe wait until the first round of Hyperspace Trials have taken place and we have some actual, physical, useful data on 2nd edition OP events.

Because until then all you're doing is shouting into a void and daring people to disagree with you.

I would like to, but as you've seen already in this thread, people are bad at listening, and we don't have ListJuggler anymore so "data" is hard to find.

We could look at the Gold Squadron Classic, going on right now, and ask ourselves what the disparity of lists is there, and if a new player could actually build any of the winning lists

1 minute ago, Kieransi said:

You didn't ask for examples of things on par with Sabine or TLT. You asked for "shining examples of bad game design".

Homing Missiles are bad game design.

No, I exactly asked about bad design on the level of TLT or Sabine, here is my original question:

12 minutes ago, Embir82 said:

Now show me cards in extended version that are such a shining example of bad design like TLT, Miranda Doni or Sabine crew card were in 1.0.

Also, Homing Missiles are completely fine design - it is useful tool for 2 dice attack ships that can make them relevant against high agility, token stacking ships. In no way it warps meta or makes certain ships or strategies obsolete. Saying that Homing Missiles are bad design only shows how shortsighted is your view when it comes to X-Wing 2.0.

2 minutes ago, ficklegreendice said:

Ancedotal evidence here is FAR more games with far greater list variety and outcomes

If you actually try to build to a ship's strengths rather than fielding overloaded craft, you can do well with a LOT of ship selections

Just have to realize that things actually die in second edition, so being silly about overloading upgrades on very few ships is not something you want to do unless you're an absolute wizard with them

****, I just ran into the supposedly "broken" traj simulator. I ate FIVE damage from bombs. Still won, because I know how fragile the Punisher/SCURRG are and how quickly they fold to even a little bit of concetrated firepower

happily traded my 46 point kimoglia for that Punisher

I will say now what I've said several times in this thread.

Evidence that extended format is better than 1.0 is not evidence that it's perfect.

5 minutes ago, FTS Gecko said:

OK, if you don't want to use anecdotal evidence maybe wait until the first round of Hyperspace Trials have taken place and we have some actual, physical, useful data on 2nd edition OP events.

Because until then all you're doing is shouting into a void and daring people to disagree with you.

Sure.

What did you have for breakfast?

Just now, Embir82 said:

No, I exactly asked about bad design on the level of TLT or Sabine, here is my original question:

Also, Homing Missiles are completely fine design - it is useful tool for 2 dice attack ships that can make them relevant against high agility, token stacking ships. In no way it warps meta or makes certain ships or strategies obsolete. Saying that Homing Missiles are bad design only shows how shortsighted is your view when it comes to X-Wing 2.0.

Like =/= "on the same power level as", but moving past the language misunderstanding...

Homing Missiles are a problem for exactly the reason you just said. They target a specific type of enemy and therefore are not relevant in all matchups. Rock-paper-scissors is bad. We DO NOT want a game lost in the listbuilding phase.

I also find your opinions and tone in this thread highly hostile and uninformed. Just because you disagree with me doesn't mean that I don't understand the game. I've been playing 2.0 now for about two months, via various proxy games and stuff picked up at GenCon. I'm trying to share what I've noticed over that time, through conversations with various podcasters and other "X-Wing famous people".

4 minutes ago, Kieransi said:

I would like to, but as you've seen already in this thread, people are bad at listening

Mmm-hmm. "It can't be ME that's doing it wrong, it must be EVERYBODY ELSE.".

5 minutes ago, Kieransi said:

we don't have ListJuggler anymore so "data" is hard to find.

When 2nd Edition is barely one week old and there haven't been any official OP events yet, then yes, anything other than anecdotal data is going to be VERY hard to find. Hence why I suggested waiting until the first round of OP events is under the belt before attempting to assess/review the situation.

This isn't a conversation that's going to reflect anything other than personal opinion any time soon.

3 minutes ago, Do I need a Username said:

What did you have for breakfast?

Huevos Rancheros. The breakfast of (Mexican) champions.

Just now, FTS Gecko said:

Mmm-hmm. "It can't be ME that's doing it wrong, it must be EVERYBODY ELSE.".

When 2nd Edition is barely one week old and there haven't been any official OP events yet, then yes, anything other than anecdotal data is going to be VERY hard to find. Hence why I suggested waiting until the first round of OP events is under the belt before attempting to assess/review the situation.

This isn't a conversation that's going to reflect anything other than personal opinion any time soon.

This reads like an awful lot of not-breakfast, unless you eat words.

Just now, FTS Gecko said:

Huevos Rancheros. The breakfast of (Mexican) champions.

ignore my previous post, you are good. But Wheaties are the international breakfast of champions, so also wrong.

2 minutes ago, Kieransi said:

Homing Missiles are a problem for exactly the reason you just said. They target a specific type of enemy and therefore are not relevant in all matchups. Rock-paper-scissors is bad. We DO NOT want a game lost in the listbuilding phase.

Explain to me how Homing Missiles are not useful when ship with 2 dice attack wants to shoot at 1 Agi ship with focus, through the rock at range 3?

Just now, Embir82 said:

Explain to me how Homing Missiles are not useful when ship with 2 dice attack wants to shoot at 1 Agi ship with focus, through the rock at range 3?

When that 1 agility ship has like 10 hitpoints left? Homing Missiles can do autodamage but it's most useful against low-hitpoint aces. It doesn't matter. We're getting very tangential here and I'm not sure you're actually listening to me, since I keep making the same points over and over. I think we're done here.

23 minutes ago, Kieransi said:

Genius (high-information autodamage)

Trajectory Simulator (bombs that are difficult to avoid without tremendous board position cost)

Homing Missiles (autodamage, situational card that works best only in certain matchups, therefore leads to rock-paper-scissors and games lost or won due to lucky/unlucky matchups)

Just to name a few...

Supernatural Reflexes

The most busted card in all of 2.0 is in the core set, and available in second edition format. It single-handedly leads to more Rock Paper Scissors matches than anything else in the game.

There's bad design all over the place, not just in the conversion kits.

2 minutes ago, Kieransi said:

When that 1 agility ship has like 10 hitpoints left? Homing Missiles can do autodamage but it's most useful against low-hitpoint aces. It doesn't matter. We're getting very tangential here and I'm not sure you're actually listening to me, since I keep making the same points over and over. I think we're done here.

Against 1 agility ship with 10 hp you just fire your 2 dice primary and be happy.

Against 3 agility Ace your 2 dice primary would be quite useless, but Homing Missile is actually pretty good.

Therefore ships like A-Wings can actually threaten both high and low agility targets, and make so in a more interesting way than just if they would give them 3 dice primary..

3 hours ago, Kieransi said:

We're getting very tangential here and I'm not sure you're actually listening to me, since I keep making the same points over and over.

Yeah you are making the same point over and over and it is wrong over and over.
Saying that Homing Missiles are bad design because they are good only against aces is wrong, because Homing Missiles are actually much more than that.

3 hours ago, Kieransi said:

Homing Missiles can do autodamage but it's most useful against low-hitpoint aces. It doesn't matter.

It doesn't matter? To have 1 guaranteed damage? Man then why Crackshot was such a hot stuff in 1.0?
Also, shooting at range 3 through rocks, against token stacked defender is one of the most common things in X-Wing.

2 minutes ago, Crit Happens said:

Supernatural Reflexes

The most busted card in all of 2.0 is in the core set, and available in second edition format. It single-handedly leads to more Rock Paper Scissors matches than anything else in the game.

There's bad design all over the place, not just in the conversion kits.

I'm inclined to disagree on this one.

The force powers (and force tokens in general) might very well be very powerful abilities, but there's a clear end game there. And that's keeping the iconic Star Wars characters front and centre. Luke, Vader, Rey, Kylo and other force sensitive pilots will most likely be able to hold their own into the foreseeable future as a result of this mechanic. They're essentially future proofed.

12 minutes ago, FTS Gecko said:

Huevos Rancheros. The breakfast of (Mexican) champions.

i agree

2 minutes ago, Mattman7306 said:

i agree

...and now you're both wrong.

Just so y'all know, I'm done here. This thread got way too confrontational for my tastes and I'm out. I still disagree with all of you but I think @FTS Gecko is right that it's just pointless internet screaming until we have some more solid data and evidence, and ultimately it's up to FFG to make these decisions anyway.

All I really wanted was for FFG to see my original post and it's stuck around long enough with enough people agreeing that I consider this a success.

Enjoy X-Wing 2.0, however you're playing it. Later.