On 10/3/2018 at 7:13 AM, sndwurks said:

Personally?

I hope that they keep the Shadow Dragon.

Not "oh, redo the events that led to the Shadow Dragon." No. KEEP THE SHADOW DRAGON. The Lying Darkness in this version of Rokugan has always BEEN the Shadow Dragon, working in secret to undo its mistake of allowing existence to happen. The Shadow Dragon was always a much more compelling villain (and setting appropriate) than the strange, nameless, formless Nothing.

It makes an existential threat to the setting other than the vague Shadowlands big bad (Fu Leng and Iuchiban), and serves as a fun easter egg for players from the original game.

^^This. I always ran the Shadow as the Shadow Dragon. It was an often complicating force that impacted the players plans, and tempted a few into power (shadow marks). The subtle poison, as opposed to Fu Leng's hammer.

8 hours ago, Hida Jitenno said:

Generally, you needed 4+ Shadowlands cards in your deck to qualify as "Corrupted." Otherwise, there could be a slight Taint-y influence for 1-3, but wouldn't necessarily be a boon to the Shadowlands as well.

I took advantage of that to run 3 Ogre Bushi in my Crab deck. I bought into their backstory of "Actually really hate Fu Leng and would love to fight against him and his legions." Once Dawn of the Empire dropped, I added Muhumono (spelling may be wrong) into my deck as well. I was pretty bummed when the storyline went to Crab rejecting the Ogres, so the Ogres turned around a swore their service to Fu Leng by choice.

That was a little hurtful.

Yes but when all decks were tainted in very quick succession, it became obvious what it would do to the storyline. Tainted was pretty much the same as Corrupted for it's affects on the story. And it became "Oh look more Shadowlands creatures" because Every damned faction was using them for a time. They might as well have made A Thousand Years of Darkness start around that time. It got dull honestly and alienated quite a few players. And I'd prefer that not start up again..

14 hours ago, TheWanderingJewels said:

Yes but when all decks were tainted in very quick succession, it became obvious what it would do to the storyline. Tainted was pretty much the same as Corrupted for it's affects on the story. And it became "Oh look more Shadowlands creatures" because Every damned faction was using them for a time. They might as well have made A Thousand Years of Darkness start around that time. It got dull honestly and alienated quite a few players. And I'd prefer that not start up again..

I agree with the "prefer that not start up again," but if people are using Shadowlands cards in tournaments that affect the storyline, there should be storyline consequences for that. I'd prefer people with Pure decks win the story prizes, thereby removing the Shadowlands benefit, but if people are embracing corruption to win, that it what it is.

I disagree regarding the "Tainted" and "Corrupted" having the same effect. For one, Yoritomo Kumiko was only slightly Tainted, rather than falling to the Shadowlands, but neither was she Pure. The Heir of Yoritomo's soul was at stake there, and it would have been a very different result had she been corrupted.

Likewise, Lotus v Dark Lotus, where the Tainted deck that won still gave us Lotus, whereas if it had been Corrupted, we would have had a vastly different story under Dark Lotus.

Short verison: I'd rather not see Shadowlands-corrupted victories, but if people are using its power to win, the story should reflect that.

I sincerely hope things don't get to silly as the different decks roll through. I know those of us over here on the RPG side are fully capable of building our own Rokugan, but I like using the card game story for background events. The meta fiction gives my courtly players a rich sense of what they're hearing when an ability claims "you know the political state of Rokugan".

Personally, I don't disagree with Hida Jitenno's side of things, but I really don't want to suddenly pick up some meta fiction only to find out Hida Kisada abandoned the Wall because his new best friend is a maho-tsukai with convenient strategic abilities, and the Kuni are just cool with it.

1 hour ago, Hida Jitenno said:

Likewise, Lotus v Dark Lotus, where the Tainted deck that won still gave us Lotus, whereas if it had been Corrupted, we would have had a vastly different story under Dark Lotus.

Supposedly.

Again, as has been confirmed in some places by some people (yes, I am being vague because there are people on this board who are former brand managers, former story writers, and former designers of L5R and I prefer to protect people when I can), the amount that the story of Old5R was truly interactive / dependent on player action is questionable. Certain things (like the Shadow Dragon and the corruption of Kuni Renyu's dog) were absolutely the result of player action. Other things (like the possibility of Dark Lotus, Seiken inheriting the throne, if anyone OTHER than Toturi or Hoturi was going to become Emperor) was questionable at best. This includes the impact of "Deck Corruption" on the storyline. Like, what made the Phoenix Clan corrupt? Oh. Their STRONGHOLD (the only non-optional card they had).

I think Nu5R will keep to the limited story interaction, in clearly outlined areas, which will grow over time and probably have a peak about 4 years out from now (at the end of the first major story arc).

1 minute ago, ExplodingJoe said:

Personally, I don't disagree with Hida Jitenno's side of things, but I really don't want to suddenly pick up some meta fiction only to find out Hida Kisada abandoned the Wall because his new best friend is a maho-tsukai with convenient strategic abilities, and the Kuni are just cool with it.

...

You mean, like Hida Kisada did in the original timeline?

1 minute ago, sndwurks said:

You mean, like Hida Kisada did in the original timeline?

Yes. I remember my players banding together to ensure I never added that as part of my meta. Dark times for my Crab fan.

5 minutes ago, ExplodingJoe said:

Personally, I don't disagree with Hida Jitenno's side of things, but I really don't want to suddenly pick up some meta fiction only to find out Hida Kisada abandoned the Wall because his new best friend is a maho-tsukai with convenient strategic abilities, and the Kuni are just cool with it.

2 minutes ago, sndwurks said:

...

You mean, like Hida Kisada did in the original timeline?

That didn't happen in the original timeline! Kuni Yori was clearly *already* his best friend. It wasn't a *new* best friend at all.

Um... yeah.

I'm just glad that Kisada didn't seem completely disgusted by the fact that Sukune even exists, so I have hope that his fate, at least, will be different. Sukune is awesome.

1 minute ago, ExplodingJoe said:

Yes. I remember my players banding together to ensure I never added that as part of my meta. Dark times for my Crab fan.

I always left it in, even as a Crab who is ashamed that it happened. It goes to show just how seductive and tempting the Shadowlands can be.

Remember, Hida Osano-Wo made Kenzan, not Kaimetsu-Uo, his heir for one simple reason: It isn't because the Crab never fail, it's because the Crab always have to come back after failure and keep at it.

Kisada's mistake is right along those lines. He failed his duty, he never debated that after the fact. And he managed to recover* the Ancestral Sword of the Hantei from Fu Leng in the process!

* - well... you know.

8 minutes ago, Hida Jitenno said:

I always left it in, even as a Crab who is ashamed that it happened. It goes to show just how seductive and tempting the Shadowlands can be.

Remember, Hida Osano-Wo made Kenzan, not Kaimetsu-Uo, his heir for one simple reason: It isn't because the Crab never fail, it's because the Crab always have to come back after failure and keep at it.

Kisada's mistake is right along those lines. He failed his duty, he never debated that after the fact. And he managed to recover* the Ancestral Sword of the Hantei from Fu Leng in the process!

* - well... you know.

The mountain never moves...

8 minutes ago, Hida Jitenno said:

Remember, Hida Osano-Wo made Kenzan, not Kaimetsu-Uo, his heir for one simple reason: It isn't because the Crab never fail, it's because the Crab always have to come back after failure and keep at it.

I didn't mean to insinuate that the Crab never fail. I just prefer that failure within in the clan is met with swift consequences, and a focus on moving forward. If the Crab never failed, it'd be frustratingly boring to write around them since every plot would be "I stand on the wall and need more supplies" forever.

That has to balance with the fact that if the Crab completely fail, the Empire is doomed. No return. Scorpion and Crane are all that exist on the other side of Crab lands, and neither has an army capable of forming a large defensive line to hold back the hordes. In service to that, I never had the Crab inviting goblins and undead into their army.

5 hours ago, ExplodingJoe said:

I didn't mean to insinuate that the Crab never fail. I just prefer that failure within in the clan is met with swift consequences, and a focus on moving forward. If the Crab never failed, it'd be frustratingly boring to write around them since every plot would be "I stand on the wall and need more supplies" forever.

That has to balance with the fact that if the Crab completely fail, the Empire is doomed. No return. Scorpion and Crane are all that exist on the other side of Crab lands, and neither has an army capable of forming a large defensive line to hold back the hordes. In service to that, I never had the Crab inviting goblins and undead into their army.

Likewise, the Crab have to be practical about how failure is both assessed and punished… even a drunkard has uses. The Crab are noted for frugality and practicality. The dirty but warm kimono is preferable to the fancy but too warm or fancy but too cold one for court. The Tetsubo for smashing oni.

Failures in the Crab wind up in places where said failure can be irrelevant - The coward goes to work for smiths (it's not easy work, but it's terribly simple, to be the guy on the bellows, and not too much harder to be the hammer-man); the insomniac who sleeps all day winds up on night watch; the tainted go to the death legion, rather than seppuku; The ill-spoken courtier gets wall duty or administration tasks.

Even a drunkard can be useful - as an ear in a neighbor's villages. "Loan" him to their daimyō. Let him be your eyes, and let them underestimate you because of him.