Rokugan is not The West, and is flawed, much like most societies. Rokugan has always been rough for the other than samurai (and low ranking samurai for that matter) when push comes to shove. 4th edition gave a version of the The Sengoku Jidai (Age of Warring States), a snake pit by anyones standards, as a possible setting. And that along with other issues have been present within the Game since 1st Edition. The module Void In The Heavens was pretty blunt on the subject of Eta and Samurai (and peasant) reaction to even Looking at one, and the Scorpions (and other clan samurais) attempted subversion of Heavens Will. The City of lies boxed set had passing mention of one of the NPC's being gay, which didn't really register overly much in that it was more of a concern how it might affect the NPC's duties.

As a long running GM, I've pointed out some of these things in passing mention during the years I've run the game. And my players have sometimes winced, but understand it's a feudal society. And those are inherently unfair.

They've even put down a peasant rebellion during the campaign, because the end result would have been worse for all around. It's not fair, and damned cruel.

But so what? We're not commenting on the real world here. we are playing a game to escape mundane reality and all of it's nonsense. Not to do social commentary

@Shosur0 Because representation matters. Because people want to see and play as characters who reflect who they are. Women don't generally want to play characters that are unequal to men, and LGBT+ persons don't generally want to play in a world where they are treated as inferior. They have to put up with enough of that in the real world, why would they want to have to stress about that in their fantasy game?

Rokugan can still be an awful place, where people are treated inferior because of the circumstances of their birth, but sex, identity, orientation, and complexion don't need to factor into that.

2 hours ago, Shosur0 said:

But then... Why stop there? Heimin are less than samurai just because of birthright.

Well, heimin are less than samurai because they are really less than samurai. Or at least should be, according to the in-setting logic, but I give that one to you, things tend to be strangely inconsistent around here.

Well. That the Divine Order lays out the right and true great chain of being between divine-blooded samurai and people-shaped animals is certainly a thing people believe. Just look at all of those wise quotations of Shinsei!

And disregard the monks tempting you with claims of deeper wisdom found in Shinsei. They’re just rabble-rousers.

And disregard the extremely uncomfortable questions the Togashi keep bringing up. They’re just trying to throw you off your game.

(I wish I knew where it would be, but I could swear I remember reading a bit in the Fourth Edition books about how shugengerey requires divine heritage and so heimin and eta cannot be shugenja; in all cases where it appeared a peasant could hear the Kami, the nearest shugenja family had a look into it and quickly found documentation showing them to be a lost scion of the Clan.)

28 minutes ago, Lindhrive said:

That the Divine Order lays out the right and true great chain of being between divine-blooded samurai and people-shaped animals is certainly a thing people believe.

To be honest, it is not something people believe. It is something the power who created the universe can tell you if you are ballsy enough to have a talk with it. Or you can literally travel to the not!Underworld and have the God of Death explain it to you personally - you can even see the whole system in work there. Then, of course, if you still decide to not believe in it then evil spirits will come for you and eat your soul for realsies, so there is that.

3 minutes ago, AtoMaki said:

To be honest, it is not something people believe. It is something the power who created the universe can tell you if you are ballsy enough to have a talk with it. Or you can literally travel to the not!Underworld and have the God of Death explain it to you personally - you can even see the whole system in work there.

Sure. If you trust them to tell you the truth.

25 minutes ago, Lindhrive said:

Sure. If you trust them to tell you the truth.

Aaaaand this is why Bloodspeakers are a thing.

3 hours ago, Lindhrive said:

Sure. If you trust them to tell you the truth.

3 hours ago, AtoMaki said:

Aaaaand this is why Bloodspeakers are a thing.

Not to mention the Kolat. And the Perfect Land sect.

9 hours ago, Tonbo Karasu said:

Not to mention the Kolat. And the Perfect Land sect.

The Kolat are technically right about the Kami doing a mess. The Perfect Land Sect is similarly right about the whole thing being vastly overblown.

The Celestial Order exists, it is as tangible and undeniable in Rokugan as gravity. However, the way it was applied has much to be desired.

On ‎9‎/‎28‎/‎2018 at 3:42 PM, Vutall said:

I have a feeling the Spider Mon will be used to represent the Lost and tainted samurai who ally with them. A clan so to speak, but nothing official or governed by the Empire. A mockery of it instead, as the Shadowlands, Jigoku, and Fu Leng tend to enjoy perverting the Empires ways.

This. Even the Beta RPG's limited adventure had Moto Morikazu, one of the 'Dark Moto'. Oni and monsters are all well and good, but sometimes it's nice to put a human face on the enemy.

Whether the shadowlanders are ever a playable faction in the LCG is a different matter, but they definitely exist and the Spider Clan is as good a label for them as any.

I would welcome the Spider Clan as a label for fallen samurai united against the empire. That'd be great awesome. I just can't get behind them as a great clan with the imperial family's seal of approval.

I'd fully support a story line in which the Scorpion clan must begin taking credit for Spider activity in order to maintain their image as Rokugan's villains, and their struggle to suppress knowledge of taint spreading in the empire lest they also be seen as corrupted.

23 hours ago, Shosur0 said:

But then... Why stop there? Heimin are less than samurai just because of birthright.

Personally, I think the caste conflict is highlighted once you equalize the other social aspects. If it wasn't such a brutally oppressive system, the Kolat conspiracy wouldn't mean as much.

17 hours ago, ExplodingJoe said:

I would welcome the Spider Clan as a label for fallen samurai united against the empire. That'd be great awesome. I just can't get behind them as a great clan with the imperial family's seal of approval.

This. It's the same as my view of the Kolat. Using it as almost a 'franchise' label for "groups rebels and ne'er-do-wells" who want to overturn the celestial order is fine. They exist (much as the Emerald Magistrates are trying to do something about that) and you've therefore got to call them something. Some of them might be interconnected cells, others might just be followers of Tora's philosophy (which may or may not also be tied to the more pacifist but arguably equally heretical Perfect Land sect) and may not be actively tied to 'other' Kolat.

By comparison, making them a single SPECTRE-esque hidden society which absolutely no-one suspects even exists and which has had people controlling everything since ever but which after a thousand years somehow still hasn't done what it was supposed to feels like bad bond villains.

On ‎9‎/‎30‎/‎2018 at 7:40 PM, AtoMaki said:

To be honest, it is not something people believe. It is something the power who created the universe can tell you if you are ballsy enough to have a talk with it. Or you can literally travel to the not!Underworld and have the God of Death explain it to you personally - you can even see the whole system in work there. Then, of course, if you still decide to not believe in it then evil spirits will come for you and eat your soul for realsies, so there is that.

This. It's a big element in fantastic settings; whether you agree with the gods or not, going around not believing in them doesn't achieve much because they believe very strongly in themselves.

6 hours ago, Magnus Grendel said:

By comparison, making them a single SPECTRE-esque hidden society which absolutely no-one suspects even exists and which has had people controlling everything since ever but which after a thousand years somehow still hasn't done what it was supposed to feels like bad bond villains.

If we get the Shadow Dragon back, we'll have our bad bond villain.

1 hour ago, ExplodingJoe said:

If we get the Shadow Dragon back, we'll have our bad bond villain.

Well, we're still a ways away from the March to Volturnum and the Battle of Oblivion's Gate, if FFG even goes that direction with the story.

At this point, it doesn't even appear that there's going to be a Scorpion Clan Coup, unless Shoju just decides not to had the Throne over to Daigotsu Daisetsu when he takes his gempukku. Has there been any indication of Shoju considering the "Last Hantei and Fu Leng's Return" prophecy, or him interacting with the Bloodsword Ambition at all?

59 minutes ago, Hida Jitenno said:

Well, we're still a ways away from the March to Volturnum and the Battle of Oblivion's Gate, if FFG even goes that direction with the story.

At this point, it doesn't even appear that there's going to be a Scorpion Clan Coup, unless Shoju just decides not to had the Throne over to Daigotsu Daisetsu when he takes his gempukku. Has there been any indication of Shoju considering the "Last Hantei and Fu Leng's Return" prophecy, or him interacting with the Bloodsword Ambition at all?

I don’t think so.

And to tell you the truth I am in no hurry for the Coup, I am enjoying this version with these little mini plots. Some are old with a new twist some are new, but overall I am enjoying the ride.

30 minutes ago, Nheko said:

I don’t think so.

And to tell you the truth I am in no hurry for the Coup, I am enjoying this version with these little mini plots. Some are old with a new twist some are new, but overall I am enjoying the ride.

Indeed. If they basically rehash the entire plot, it becomes far less engaging to me. I'm happy not knowing what's going to happen - especially with Tiger Stalks His Prey and it's potential implications being a real "oh, bugger!" moment purely in the form of clan politics rather than a massive supernatural threat (tm)

1 hour ago, Nheko said:

I don’t think so.

And to tell you the truth I am in no hurry for the Coup, I am enjoying this version with these little mini plots. Some are old with a new twist some are new, but overall I am enjoying the ride.

I'm with you on that. While I would love to see a Second Day of Thunder, the getting there, and even who the Thunders are, can be totally different and I would love it.

9 hours ago, ExplodingJoe said:

If we get the Shadow Dragon back, we'll have our bad bond villain.

Well, that was the result of a specific player's specific deck winning a specific tournament. I have no idea whether he's even playing this iteration.

(Nice guy, got some good Phoenix off him one tournament, but I was never enamoured of the corrupt the Air Dragon thing.)

13 hours ago, Tonbo Karasu said:

Well, that was the result of a specific player's specific deck winning a specific tournament. I have no idea whether he's even playing this iteration.

That was one thing I really enjoyed AEG doing, even if I hated some of the results. Your deck choice influenced your story choice. Oh, the Phoenix Master of Fire defeats Goju Adorai, but the winning Phoenix deck used the Air Dragon and Shadowlands/Lying Darkness stuff, so... *bam* Shadow Dragon.

37 minutes ago, Hida Jitenno said:

That was one thing I really enjoyed AEG doing, even if I hated some of the results. Your deck choice influenced your story choice. Oh, the Phoenix Master of Fire defeats Goju Adorai, but the winning Phoenix deck used the Air Dragon and Shadowlands/Lying Darkness stuff, so... *bam* Shadow Dragon.

Personally?

I hope that they keep the Shadow Dragon.

Not "oh, redo the events that led to the Shadow Dragon." No. KEEP THE SHADOW DRAGON. The Lying Darkness in this version of Rokugan has always BEEN the Shadow Dragon, working in secret to undo its mistake of allowing existence to happen. The Shadow Dragon was always a much more compelling villain (and setting appropriate) than the strange, nameless, formless Nothing.

It makes an existential threat to the setting other than the vague Shadowlands big bad (Fu Leng and Iuchiban), and serves as a fun easter egg for players from the original game.

21 minutes ago, sndwurks said:

Personally?

I hope that they keep the Shadow Dragon.

Not "oh, redo the events that led to the Shadow Dragon." No. KEEP THE SHADOW DRAGON. The Lying Darkness in this version of Rokugan has always BEEN the Shadow Dragon, working in secret to undo its mistake of allowing existence to happen. The Shadow Dragon was always a much more compelling villain (and setting appropriate) than the strange, nameless, formless Nothing.

It makes an existential threat to the setting other than the vague Shadowlands big bad (Fu Leng and Iuchiban), and serves as a fun easter egg for players from the original game.

If you want to do that, possibly make it not the air dragon, though. The idea that 'one of the elemental dragons has become corrupted' is a different thing to "we're exactly redoing the old shadow dragon fluff".

And people wonder why I had to Scorpion Clan Coup go off. And the Scorpion Won. It allowed me to ignore a lot of the card game silliness. And making the Shadowlands a player faction wasa horrible idea. It allowed "All Edge, no point" types to screw every other faction with a single tainted card in a deck. that caused so much of a damned mess

I wouldn't mind seeing the Spider again, detached from the Shadowlands and the taint. The Order of the Spider, Shourido, I like these concepts better for the storyline and game than a pseudo-Shadowlands faction.

8 hours ago, TheWanderingJewels said:

And people wonder why I had to Scorpion Clan Coup go off. And the Scorpion Won. It allowed me to ignore a lot of the card game silliness. And making the Shadowlands a player faction wasa horrible idea. It allowed "All Edge, no point" types to screw every other faction with a single tainted card in a deck. that caused so much of a damned mess

Generally, you needed 4+ Shadowlands cards in your deck to qualify as "Corrupted." Otherwise, there could be a slight Taint-y influence for 1-3, but wouldn't necessarily be a boon to the Shadowlands as well.

I took advantage of that to run 3 Ogre Bushi in my Crab deck. I bought into their backstory of "Actually really hate Fu Leng and would love to fight against him and his legions." Once Dawn of the Empire dropped, I added Muhumono (spelling may be wrong) into my deck as well. I was pretty bummed when the storyline went to Crab rejecting the Ogres, so the Ogres turned around a swore their service to Fu Leng by choice.

That was a little hurtful.