Counter vs Whisper ability

After a squadrons performs a non-counter attack against you vs after defending against an attack

Are they the same timing? are they different? which one would go first?

It would matter just in some very niche situations but it may happens

ex no1

Whisper is engaged with Rudor and someone else, she is also boosted with Dengar's bubble. Rudor attack her and she want to counter but she cannot. If the timing is the same I could move with Whisper to avoid that "someone else" and attack Rudor back.

ex no2

Whisper under Dengar´s bubble is attacked. She is within a jamming field effect so she want to move out of its effect in order to counter with her die.

You can do the same hide within an obstacle or using any kind of obstrution. I doubt it would work to get benefit from Dengar when you didn't started under it.

Does counter require distance 1 or could I perform that counter attack even from far away?

Good question. To me it seems like the same timing so you choose in which order you resolve them.

17 minutes ago, ovinomanc3r said:

Does counter require distance 1 or could I perform that counter attack even from far away?

Regarding this, there is no entry in the rules for Counter that it's restricted to distance 1 (in fact they could have added an errata on this when they released Snipe, but they chose to make Snipe ignore Counter instead), so by RAW I'd say that you could perform that counter even if you are beyond distance 1.

3 minutes ago, Lemmiwinks86 said:

Good question. To me it seems like the same timing so you choose in which order you resolve them.

Regarding this, there is no entry in the rules for Counter that it's restricted to distance 1 (in fact they could have added an errata on this when they released Snipe, but they chose to make Snipe ignore Counter instead), so by RAW I'd say that you could perform that counter even if you are beyond distance 1.

Lol,

Whisper all like "oh no you didn't just shoot me" then scurries away slapping the not so innocent rudor from the other side of a gozanti

1 minute ago, clontroper5 said:

Lol,

Whisper all like "oh no you didn't just shoot me" then scurries away slapping the not so innocent rudor from the other side of a gozanti

obstruction still exist son unless Goran is inside that Gozanti or near somehow Rudor won't notice.

Can you try to break this down a little?

Whisper has Counter 1 (Dengar) and is attacked by Valen.

Whisper is also engaged with another squadron.

Hence she cannot counter.

But she could move (her special).

Where lies the problem?

And if it was any other squad attacking, she could counter, then move.

I'm afraid I don't understand the question properly.

Now I see...

U want to move away from the OTHER squad, so u could counter back Valen.

That's possible. Both have the same timing. Move, then counter. Not a problem.

You do not perform a Counter attack, until the attacking squadron has resolved its attack step completely.

Which I'd say meets the criteria for the "After" on both abilities, immediately after the attacker completes attack step.

3 hours ago, Green Knight said:

U want to move away from the OTHER squad, so u could counter back Valen.

That's possible. Both have the same timing. Move, then counter. Not a problem.

I guess it ends being the same timing but it is not exactly hence the question.

I was just figuring out if there is a true difference between them.

Counter X:
After a squadron performs a non-counter attack against you, you may attack that squadron with an anti-squadron armament of blue dice equal to X, even if you are destroyed.

Whisper:
After defending against an attack, if you spend a defense token, you may move up to distance 1, even if you are engaged.

They are not the same timing, because they decide to use two different wordings for it. But there is no rule at what time each of this steps happens (or ends).
From (MY!) understanding, you are first stopping to be a defender and after this the attack is over. But this is really on the edge of being pettifogging.
On the other hand, you are playing Whisper. In this case your opponent is always right (for not further mentioned reasons...)
But if they happen both at the same time, what i expect they planed, you can decide in what order to do it.
In worst case i would just roll a die, before you start a fight at the table over a fight on the table

The problem is:

Either they are the same timing, or we need to be able to tell what the timing is because it is different.

If we are unable to tell which is first, then their timing is PROBABLY the same.

In which case, resolve 1st player 1st.

Even assuming that they are the same timing, I don't think that would let you make a counter attack from beyond range 1, just in case someone thinks they're being especially clever with this.

35 minutes ago, rasproteus said:

Even assuming that they are the same timing, I don't think that would let you make a counter attack from beyond range 1, just in case someone thinks they're being especially clever with this.

Technically counter has no range/distance limit. Otherwise snipe wording would be senseless.

1 hour ago, ovinomanc3r said:

Technically counter has no range/distance limit. Otherwise snipe wording would be senseless.

I think you're reading into it too much. Just because it explicitly states that snipe ignores counter does not imply that counter has no range limit.

The rules reference states:

"If the attacker is a squadron, the defending squadron or hull zone must be at distance 1."

Since a counter attack is still an attack, there's no expectation that it would break that generic rule.

7 minutes ago, rasproteus said:

I think you're reading into it too much. Just because it explicitly states that snipe ignores counter does not imply that counter has no range limit.

The rules reference states:

"If the attacker is a squadron, the defending squadron or hull zone must be at distance 1."

Since a counter attack is still an attack, there's no expectation that it would break that generic rule.

Why that wording then? Snipe CANNOT be at distance 1 and counter must be at distance 1. It is redundant.

I would say that was answered before but I didn't check it on the ffg response thread so who knows.

However the question about the timing still matters, against Rudor for example.

19 minutes ago, ovinomanc3r said:

Why that wording then? Snipe CANNOT be at distance 1 and counter must be at distance 1. It is redundant.

I would say that was answered before but I didn't check it on the ffg response thread so who knows.

However the question about the timing still matters, against Rudor for example.

So what if it's redundant? Explicitly saying that it can't be countered means you don't have to refer to the RRG to determine that it can't.

5 hours ago, ovinomanc3r said:

Technically counter has no range/distance limit. Otherwise snipe wording  would be senseless.

Rasp has it right. The FAQ explicitly states that a COUNTER attack functions exactly like a normal attack except for what determines the number of dice you get. Normal attacks have a range of 1.

Im interested to hear about the timing. It definitely looks like overlapping windows.

11 minutes ago, Astrodar said:

Rasp has it right. The FAQ explicitly states that a COUNTER attack functions exactly like a normal attack except for what determines the number of dice you get. Normal attacks have a range of 1.

Im interested to hear about the timing. It definitely looks like overlapping windows.

Lol I didn't thought to check the FAQ. I asked ffg anyway so I'll let you know on 2041

Redundancy is still a stupid thing though. As best it is confusing.

I feel the wording was put into place to stop this:

"I snipe."

"I counter."

"You can't. Attacks are inherently range 1 and counter is an attack. There's nothing that says you can do that."

"The rules tell me to make an attack, so I **** well make the attack . I mean, I can't normally attack as its not my turn, right? Counter is granting that, why doesn't it grant anything else to make the attack work?"

But the argument is only tangentially related - timing is the part that needs to be resolved. If you believe it needs to be resolved.