7 minutes ago, Pheylan said:

You're definitely right. My Dr will hit harder and more consistently with TWC. There is a good chance that I'll be able to one shot some things now without using Harm. I was looking for a more thematic/narrative way of bringing out his latent force powers and the instability of his emotional state in the context of one of his obligations.

It might be better if I just take @SanguineAngel and @whafrog 's suggestion to just use advantages for more strain damage and then narratively describe them as being the effect of him leeching energy using the darkside.

It's a thematic concept outside the rules which can be ok, and anytime it's actually a crummier mechanical option than just following RAW, that for my part is an easy 'yes' for a GM.

1 hour ago, 2P51 said:

It's a thematic concept outside the rules which can be ok, and anytime it's actually a crummier mechanical option than just following RAW, that for my part is an easy 'yes' for a GM.

Except that it opens the door to related options that are not "crummier" and can be abused.

30 minutes ago, HappyDaze said:

Except that it opens the door to related options that are not "crummier" and can be abused.

As I said before, I'm limiting my decision to this OPs suggestion in regards to this specific application with my rationale being it is actually a poorer option than what's available RAW via simply Brawl. So bearing that adjudication yardstick in mind it doesn't actually open any OP issues if it's my metric.

2 minutes ago, 2P51 said:

As I said before, I'm limiting my decision to this OPs suggestion in regards to this specific application with my rationale being it is actually a poorer option than what's available RAW via simply Brawl. So bearing that adjudication yardstick in mind it doesn't actually open any OP issues if it's my metric.

So you wouldn't allow a Saber Throw attack while using Unleash to lash out with lightning on the same turn?

Probably not.

21 minutes ago, HappyDaze said:

So you wouldn't allow a Saber Throw attack while using Unleash to lash out with lightning on the same turn?

I'm not sure how you're equating my OP to this example and some of the others you've postulated in this thread. My question was about activating a touch based force power during a touch based attack. Those are two things that are closely associated conceptually and narratively.

Imagine, if you will, a character throwing a single punch, and having a darkness coruscating up and down his arm as his out of control connection to force uses the channel of his rage and hatred to leech the very life from the body of his enemy.

I was seeking to see if there was a way to mechanically implement my narrative goal. I am a narrative/expression player, not a challenge one ( https://gnomestew.com/general/the-eight-types-of-fun/ or https://theangrygm.com/gaming-for-fun-part-1-eight-kinds-of-fun/ ). I am not seeking a way to game the system or even to min/max. I am sure there are players that would take a mile if given an inch, but that was not where I was going with this question. I apologize if my statements came across that way.

Just now, Pheylan said:

I'm not sure how you're equating my OP to this example and some of the others you've postulated in this thread. My question was about activating a touch based force power during a touch based attack. Those are two things that are closely associated conceptually and narratively.

Imagine, if you will, a character throwing a single punch, and having a darkness coruscating up and down his arm as his out of control connection to force uses the channel of his rage and hatred to leech the very life from the body of his enemy.

I was seeking to see if there was a way to mechanically implement my narrative goal. I am a narrative/expression player, not a challenge one ( https://gnomestew.com/general/the-eight-types-of-fun/ or https://theangrygm.com/gaming-for-fun-part-1-eight-kinds-of-fun/ ). I am not seeking a way to game the system or even to min/max. I am sure there are players that would take a mile if given an inch, but that was not where I was going with this question. I apologize if my statements came across that way.

That said, I think I am going to just go with the suggestion to use advantages to deal strain and add the narrative description instead of trying to leverage a mechanic in an out of band way.

1 hour ago, Pheylan said:

I'm not sure how you're equating my OP to this example and some of the others you've postulated in this thread. My question was about activating a touch based force power during a touch based attack. Those are two things that are closely associated conceptually and narratively.

Imagine, if you will, a character throwing a single punch, and having a darkness coruscating up and down his arm as his out of control connection to force uses the channel of his rage and hatred to leech the very life from the body of his enemy.

You suggested using a touch-based offensive Force power along with a touch-based attack.

I suggest using a ranged offensive Force power along with a ranged attack.

Imagine, if you will, a character hurling a lightsaber while his rage surrounds the blade with crackling Force lightning.

Narrative/expression can be used for both examples. Both examples should be worrisome to GMs concerned with game balance.

4 hours ago, TheShard said:

You can certainly dual wield your fists.

Obviously not reading everything

23 hours ago, Malashim said:

Forget what i said about that unarmed are not "weapons" - i stand corrected there was some DEV answer that you surely can TWC (two weapon combat) unarmed.

1 hour ago, Pheylan said:

Imagine, if you will, a character throwing a single punch, and having a darkness coruscating up and down his arm as his out of control connection to force uses the channel of his rage and hatred to leech the very life from the body of his enemy.

I totally don't want to imply anything but it is a bit suspicious when you search for a narrative way to depict something by asking for ways that break a part of the rules system and, depending on the way this is resolved then, opening up a path to a lot of maybe OP options.

What stops you from using a brawl attack in the first round and then the above as the narrative way for the forcepower-attack in the second round?

Or maybe even from the start... as the system is build around the idea that one round is quite long compared to other systems and one die roll is not only one strike -> he throws a few jabs to open his opponent up for the big hits but drives himself in such a rage while doing this that he unleashes his force power when he just grabs his opponent by the arm to hold him, wanting to punch his face but misses the head as some unseen force drives intense pain through the enemy, twitching to the side and refreshing the Dr. at the same time...

I mean if this is only about the narrative solution to depict the Dr. the way you want, why are we talking about game mechanics to add up possibly more damage into one attack?

1 hour ago, Malashim said:

I totally don't want to imply anything but it is a bit suspicious when you search for a narrative way to depict something by asking for ways that break a part of the rules system and, depending on the way this is resolved then, opening up a path to a lot of maybe OP options.

What stops you from using a brawl attack in the first round and then the above as the narrative way for the forcepower-attack in the second round?

Or maybe even from the start... as the system is build around the idea that one round is quite long compared to other systems and one die roll is not only one strike -> he throws a few jabs to open his opponent up for the big hits but drives himself in such a rage while doing this that he unleashes his force power when he just grabs his opponent by the arm to hold him, wanting to punch his face but misses the head as some unseen force drives intense pain through the enemy, twitching to the side and refreshing the Dr. at the same time...

I mean if this is only about the narrative solution to depict the Dr. the way you want, why are we talking about game mechanics to add up possibly more damage into one attack?

For not wanting to imply you certainly are.

Just because I want a narrative outcome doesn't mean that I want to spend XP and get no effect other than a purely narrative one. Cool stories only get you so far if can't beat the BBEG.

It sounds like you missed the part where I said I was choosing the non Harm path for a narrative one involving strain damage from advantages. You also appear to be missing the fact that I am actually reducing my damage if I were to use Harm instead of a TWC activation. My Dr will do significantly more damage with TWC and his talents than he would with Harm providing the second source of damage (and no TWC, which is what I was suggesting in my OP).

Your narrative suggestion is a good one. I might use something like it in the future. However, my thought, and what brought me here looking for some quality input, was that since Harm is a touch delivered attack and so is Brawl that linking the two in one attack made sense both mechanically and narratively. I realize this isn't RAW. I was interested in input as to whether or not it might be game breaking with solid, non-hyperbolic answers. Stating simply that it violates RAW is not really helpful.

I am pushing the envelope here in the pursuit of something that I find fun, but I don't want to ruin the fun of everyone else in my group just for a cool effect.

On 9/20/2018 at 3:02 PM, Pheylan said:

I'm not sure I'm following you all the way. It sounds like you're saying that because of the economy of actions that both would not be possible. Is that correct? Again, I'm wanting to discuss this from more than just a RAW perspective. Why would an angry emergent not accidentally leech the lifeforce out of his opponent when he hits him? At the same time I have no interest in power gaming this to make my character the most awesomest ever. It makes sense to me narratively, but I don't want to break the game (too much)

Well the reason would be game balance. Force powers also generally require some concentration to use. IE: You deliberately do X so your Y power happens.

Its probably not helpful that Harm is waaaaaaaaayyyyy generic of an offensive direct damage force power, covering everything from Force Choke to Force Lightning.

Generally when we have seen Force powers that "drain the life out of the opponent" its something that is done while you are not doing something else. Example being the drain life power in KOTOR. Force powers can be attacks, but they're not weapons. They're force powers. Their own category of stuff.

Now your GM might maybe allow you to do both a Force Power and a normal melee attack in the same turn. Let you use a Maneuver to cast your power and an action to punch the enemy in the face, narrative illustrated as your punches draining them of life. But that would require a change to the basic rules.

Maybe you could treat it as a new slot on your Specialization tree that allows you to cast Heal/Harm as a Maneuver that costs 20-25 XP.

2 hours ago, BadMotivator said:

Well the reason would be game balance. Force powers also generally require some concentration to use. IE: You deliberately do X so your Y power happens.

Its probably not helpful that Harm is waaaaaaaaayyyyy generic of an offensive direct damage force power, covering everything from Force Choke to Force Lightning.

Generally when we have seen Force powers that "drain the life out of the opponent" its something that is done while you are not doing something else. Example being the drain life power in KOTOR. Force powers can be attacks, but they're not weapons. They're force powers. Their own category of stuff.

Now your GM might maybe allow you to do both a Force Power and a normal melee attack in the same turn. Let you use a Maneuver to cast your power and an action to punch the enemy in the face, narrative illustrated as your punches draining them of life. But that would require a change to the basic rules.

Maybe you could treat it as a new slot on your Specialization tree that allows you to cast Heal/Harm as a Maneuver that costs 20-25 XP.

Actually, it’s not as “generic as you said. Also, it does not Force Drain include Force Choke nor Force Lightning . The former is the Dark Side use of the basic Bind power, whereas the latter is the Mastery upgrade of Unleash . Harm is basically draining the life essence from your victim, like a “vampiric touch”. It’s based upon a D6 Power called Force Drain originally published in the Dark Empire Sourcebook . it also appears in the new canon in Aftermath . As the name suggests, it drains the Force energy, and thus the very life from its target.

9 hours ago, Pheylan said:

For not wanting to imply you certainly are.

Just because I want a narrative outcome doesn't mean that I want to spend XP and get no effect other than a purely narrative one. Cool stories only get you so far if can't beat the BBEG.

It sounds like you missed the part where I said I was choosing the non Harm path for a narrative one involving strain damage from advantages. You also appear to be missing the fact that I am actually reducing my damage if I were to use Harm instead of a TWC activation. My Dr will do significantly more damage with TWC and his talents than he would with Harm providing the second source of damage (and no TWC, which is what I was suggesting in my OP).

Your narrative suggestion is a good one. I might use something like it in the future. However, my thought, and what brought me here looking for some quality input, was that since Harm is a touch delivered attack and so is Brawl that linking the two in one attack made sense both mechanically and narratively. I realize this isn't RAW. I was interested in input as to whether or not it might be game breaking with solid, non-hyperbolic answers. Stating simply that it violates RAW is not really helpful.

I am pushing the envelope here in the pursuit of something that I find fun, but I don't want to ruin the fun of everyone else in my group just for a cool effect.

Actually i can't miss the point how much damage which option would mean as i don't know your char, talents and stats as well as the over all power level of play in your group. But the way this discussion turned out so far i can only speak from experience with players i encountered over the last 18 years that such attempts almost never came only from the narrative place.

Overall i think most things have been said right now, as the only logical solution is to leave it your GM to decide what he will do with this.

On 9/20/2018 at 5:49 PM, Malashim said:

As far as my knowledge goes fists without a brawl weapon won't work with dual wielding as you need an actual (brawl)weapon for it. As the book states very explicitly weapons for "Two Weapon Combat"

So from that point of view a touch attack including the Harm power also won't qualify as a weapon and though won't work at all.

I allow two weapon fighting with unarmed brawl attacks. I think saying that can't be done is overly following the wording. Putting brass knuckles in my hands doesnt mean I can suddenly make 2 attacks anymore than if I punch with 2 fists. If a player wanted two weapon fighting with a punch followed by a kick is extremely realistic in martial arts. In fact of trained its easier than attacking with two swords or two guns.

27 minutes ago, Kilcannon said:

I allow two weapon fighting with unarmed brawl attacks. I think saying that can't be done is overly following the wording. Putting brass knuckles in my hands doesnt mean I can suddenly make 2 attacks anymore than if I punch with 2 fists. If a player wanted two weapon fighting with a punch followed by a kick is extremely realistic in martial arts. In fact of trained its easier than attacking with two swords or two guns.

Reading at least half of the first page and not only the first 4 postings would have spared you some typing, but don't worry you are not the first ? .

This was already taken care of.