Let's say I'm flying Kavil.
-I have a Dorsal Turret equipped.
-My turret arc is pointed to the front.
-I have a ship in my front arc and I fire at it with my turret.

Do I roll 3 dice (2 from the turret, 1 from Range 1)
or
4 dice (2 from turret, 1 from Range 1, 1 from Kavil's ability)?

14 minutes ago, mightyspacepope said:

Let's say I'm flying Kavil.
-I have a Dorsal Turret equipped.
-My turret arc is pointed to the front.
-I have a ship in my front arc and I fire at it with my turret.

Do I roll 3 dice (2 from the turret, 1 from Range 1)
or
4 dice (2 from turret, 1 from Range 1, 1 from Kavil's ability)?

3. Front arc is the Y-Wing's primary arc and Kavil's ability explicitly excludes that arc.

Edit: He excludes the front standard arc. Sorry. Front arc just happens to be the Y-Wing's primary arc. Still only 3 at range 1 with dorsal out the front arc.

Yup. Kavil's extra attack die only comes when you're attacking from a side or back arc - his front arc doesn't allow the extra damage die.

Edit: Turns out I was wrong, and Kavil always gets an extra attack die on turret attacks...!

You roll 4 dice.

As per the latest faq,

ARCS: Can ships that only use (Turret) or (Fronthalf) attacks use effects that require the ship to perform a (V) attack? (i.e. Fearless, Outmaneuver)

A: No. Note the differences between the requirement of Fearless: “While you perform a (V) primary attack…” and Punishing One: “While you perform a primary attack, if the defender is in your (V) ” A (V) attack uses the (V) icon above the attack value as shown on its ship card. This is different from an attack that is performed against a ship in it’s (V).

As I understand it, a (V) attack is different to a (Turret Arc) attack, even if the turret is pointed forwards.

It works if overlaid. A turret arc is not a V arc even if it's in the same place. Kavil's ability only fails with his primary weapon and ordnance.

8 hours ago, emeraldbeacon said:

Yup. Kavil's extra attack die only comes when you're attacking from a side or back arc - his front arc doesn't allow the extra damage die.

Just to be clear, your interpretation is not correct based on the most recent FAQ. It’s weird, I know, but it looks like turret facing forward is good (but potentially not torpedoes.)

25 minutes ago, dsul413 said:

Just to be clear, your interpretation is not correct based on the most recent FAQ. It’s weird, I know, but it looks like turret facing forward is good (but potentially not torpedoes.)

Torpedoes are pretty clearly "front V" arc weapons, so will not trigger Kavil's ability. Scope the symbol next to 4.

It is theoretically possible some future Torpedo is not a front arc weapon, but that does not describe any current Torpedo.

Kavil's ability is 360 now, which is sorta bonkers but atleast theres no TLT anymore.

Turrets, even when facing the same way, are not a [front arc]

I understand the interpretation that he'd get the 4th die. However, if that was the design intent, why not just have his ability say something like:

"When attacking with a turret, you may roll 1 additional die."

26 minutes ago, mightyspacepope said:

I understand the interpretation that he'd get the 4th die. However, if that was the design intent, why not just have his ability say something like:

"When attacking with a turret, you may roll 1 additional die."

In the future, there may be other none primary arc attacks that can benefit from his ability. Think of 1.0 there were things like Hot shot blaster that were not a turret but did not use the primary arc.

You do get the dice.

For example.. look at the rules reference.

A (V) attack uses the (V) icon above the attack value as shown on its ship card. This is different from an attack that is performed against a ship in it’s (V).

Kavils card says.... a non-(V) attack.... and a turret is a "non-(V) attack"

Kavils card DOES NOT say an attack out of your front facing arc (V).

28 minutes ago, shaunmerritt said:

You do get the dice.

For example.. look at the rules reference.

A (V) attack uses the (V) icon above the attack value as shown on its ship card. This is different from an attack that is performed against a ship in it’s (V).

Kavils card says.... a non-(V) attack.... and a turret is a "non-(V) attack"

Kavils card DOES NOT say an attack out of your front facing arc (V).

And that's how I was mis-reading the card. The old way he was written, in first edition, Kavil got his extra attack die as long as the enemy wasn't in his front arc. Now, gets his extra die any time he uses an attack that isn't defined as a front-arc attack. That includes his primary attack, and all current torpedoes (if he could equip missiles, then he'd get an extra attack die for proton rockets - ouch!). So, if he's using a turret to attack, he's using a turret arc, which (even if pointed forward) is never defined as a front-arc attack.

Hello there!

Actually, I was making reseach about this problem and that's how I got here.

But I still don't really understand why Kavil gets his additional die, when he's firing a turret to the front.

Is it, because the firing arc is per definition now just a turret arc, which is coincidentally pointing forward, and doesn't quality to be the 45 degree primary arc anymore in that case?

10 minutes ago, Schu81 said:

Hello there!

Actually, I was making reseach about this problem and that's how I got here.

But I still don't really understand why Kavil gets his additional die, when he's firing a turret to the front.

Is it, because the firing arc is per definition now just a turret arc, which is coincidentally pointing forward, and doesn't quality to be the 45 degree primary arc anymore in that case?

Because his V primary arc and his [turret] are not the same thing just because they're pointing in the same direction.

6 minutes ago, Schu81 said:

Hello there!

Actually, I was making reseach about this problem and that's how I got here.

But I still don't really understand why Kavil gets his additional die, when he's firing a turret to the front.

Is it, because the firing arc is per definition now just a turret arc, which is coincidentally pointing forward, and doesn't quality to be the 45 degree primary arc anymore in that case?

turrets only ever use the (turret arc), no matter which way they are pointing. it's printed on the upgrade cards for turrets that it uses the turret arc, as opposed to something like a torpedo or missile that uses the (front arc) and has that arc printed on the upgrade cards. there is another relevant arc in the game already as well - the bullseye (heavy laser cannon, proton rockets).

i was really confused by how turret arcs work initially as well, because how they were described in the rules reference.

if you look at an upgrade like outmaneuver that triggers when you perform a (front arc) attack, turrets and bullseye special attacks can never trigger the effect, even if the target is in your (front arc), the weapon used and therefore also the attack being performed is not a (front arc) attack.

this means kavils ability would also apply to proton rockets and heavy laser cannon, if he could equip them. kavil rolls three dice at range two with a dorsal turret attack - and four dice at range one, no matter which way his turret arc indicator is pointing.

Couldn't they just have written "if you are using a turret weapon, you may roll one additional die" ?

28 minutes ago, Schu81 said:

Couldn't they just have written "if you are using a turret weapon, you may roll one additional die" ?

They could have.

They didn't, presumably in case future non-turret weapons can shoot from arcs other than the V arc, such as future Torps, or, potentially weapons in other slots like Hot Shot Blaster.

Ok I’ve read this post twice now and think I understand,I flew Kavil a lot on 1.0 , but haven’t done so in the 2.0 edition and all the comments have been really helpfully . As I understand then no matter which way the turret faces he always gets the additional die , and if flown well you’d never really need to use his 2 die primary attack ?

Unless the target was at r3. Or you were using an ion cannon turret and needed 2 eng to make the kill. Or vtg. There are a bunch of reasons you might use your primary.

Yes but apart from those things ?

I think that it excludes the front arc, because in the v1.0.2 rules on Arcs:

Quote

The standard arc that the turret arc indicator is pointing toward is a (turret symbol) in addition to still being a standard arc

I originally thought that the (turret) and the (V) symbols meant weapons, but they are arcs. The (V) is referring to the standard front arc. The key wording in the rules above is "in addition to still being a standard arc". So the front arc is a (V) and a (turret) arc, so it cannot be used for Kavil's ability.

2 hours ago, Mikethetike said:

I think that it excludes the front arc, because in the v1.0.2 rules on Arcs:

I originally thought that the (turret) and the (V) symbols meant weapons, but they are arcs. The (V) is referring to the standard front arc. The key wording in the rules above is "in addition to still being a standard arc". So the front arc is a (V) and a (turret) arc, so it cannot be used for Kavil's ability.

Its been confirmed by FFG to work in the official ruling thread.

8 hours ago, Mikethetike said:

I originally thought that the (turret) and the (V) symbols meant weapons, but they are arcs.

That's the crux of a lot of issues... the (V) symbol can represent a firing arc, AND a weapon. The fact that the same symbol is used for both leads to a lot of confusion... you have to really read into the context of its use on the given card, to see what it's actually talking about.

If only FFG had the foresight to make the icons for firing arc locations (i.e. front, back, etc) different from the icons for actual weapons (like standard primary weapon, ordnance, etc).