Wondering besides Force Adherant what specializations you would give him? I would say he at least has Sense and possibly enhance force powers

1 minute ago, Kilcannon said:

Wondering besides Force Adherant what specializations you would give him? I would say he at least has Sense and possibly enhance force powers

Not according to LFL.

I was just thinking about this. LFL aside, I'm not fully satisfied with how Chirrut (force adherent) is specked in the book. Personally, I believe that the force is working around him and he is working with the force. Hmmm, sound familiar? Anyways, I don't like that the force isn't involved.

I totally agree that Sense is the most fitting force power for Chirrut. I absolutely believe that he could sense through the force. Not just blaster bolts whizzing past but also how the force moved around certain people. The sense control upgrades that basically serve as a powerful dodge definitely work with his fighting style.

If I was going to play a character like this, I'd probably choose either:

1) Steel hand adept to get a force rating of 1. Then I'd pick up Sense. I wouldn't play him as a jedi or get too crazy with force powers but I'd definitely want him interacting with the force.

Or

2) Something like an Advisor. This might be better than Steel Hand Adept because (if I remember right) Advisor has a (gain +1 force rating) to allow him to get to a total force rating of 2. I don't remember if Steel Hand Adept has a Force rating upgrade and I wouldn't want to pick up another force tree. I'd want the second force rating so that I could get the Control upgrades and be able to commit both force dice to upgrade the difficulty of incoming attacks. (you could do this with something like Force Sentive Exile from EotE.

If I did any further cross specs it would probably be Martial Artist.

Narratively, I'd play this character as being 'lucky' and being 'one with the force' but certainly would not be a Jedi nor would they seem magical in any sense.

Chirrut is only non force sensitive in name. The dude could tell when the force was moving darkly around a person to indicate murderous intent. He could dodge blaster fire, never missed a melee strike, shot a tie fighter out of the sky by killing the pilot...

Personally I'd give him the bounty hunter/martial artist as a starting spec, force sensitive exile as his force spec and both the sense and farsight powers.

2 hours ago, Kilcannon said:

Wondering besides Force Adherant what specializations you would give him? I would say he at least has Sense and possibly enhance force powers

Force Exposition? Force Conveniantly Timed Loss of Protection After He'd Served His Purpose And Pressed A Button? Force Waste Of One Of The Most Charismatic Martial Arts Actors Currently Working?

Sorry, just really didn't like that movie, or pretty much anything going on in it.

6 hours ago, Kilcannon said:

Wondering besides Force Adherant what specializations you would give him? I would say he at least has Sense and possibly enhance force powers

Martial Artist or Marauder would be my most obvious starting point. Though something like Infiltrator or Steel hand Adept might work if that's how you feel about things.

RE: His Forceness: If you really read up the compiled LFL response given is super wishy-washy, in that they essentially say he's really amazing to the point he's "attuned" to the force, though he never picks of a lightsaber or makes anything float. Essentiatlly it goes with George's thing of "yeah, anyone can use the force if they try hard enough." How that translates in game-terms is going to depend on your certain point of view.

I suspect it's really just the same issue as not calling Rogue One a Prequel, even though it totally is.

While we totally get the concept t of a "force sensitive" character that has few/no force "powers" and is not a Jedi, the unwashed masses probably would have had trouble getting that. Think of how many newbies we get here that refer to all force-users as "Jedi." Same thing. If LFL said he was a "force-sensitive" the same half-muled news outlets that basically called everything in "Solo" an "Easter Egg," even if it wasn't even close, would have been calling Churrit a "Jedi" and misleading the audience. Then people would have thrown a hissy fit that Churrit didn't bust out a saber and fix everything.

Same thing with "Stand Alone." We would have understood that it's only a Prequel in that it occurs before the OT. Your neighbor from across the hall would have assumed it was a movie about Jar-jar.

1 hour ago, Ghostofman said:

Then people would have thrown a hissy fit that Churrit didn't bust out a saber and fix everything.

Hey, it's not like TLJ really let Luke do that either, so...

1 hour ago, Ghostofman said:

Then people would have thrown a hissy fit that Churrit didn't bust out a saber and fix everything.

You mean like this?

54 minutes ago, KungFuFerret said:

You mean like this?

I prefer this version .

FORCE!

I double checked. Steel Hand Adept does have 'gain +1 force rating' on their tree. So this solidifies my answer:

1) Steel Hand Adept + Force Adherent + Martial Artist +Sense

I like starting as Steel Hand because it allows you to get the warrior signature ability "unmatched ferocity' which would allow for some serious linked attacks. The dodge, parry and defensive upgrades with Sense would make you hard as H#$% to hit. And the Force Adherent is amazing narrative fodder.

I don't know if this is exactly Cirrut but man it sounds fun. Sort of wish I wasn't always GM:)

My only real beef about Chirrut directly (meaning his character, I have tons of issues with other things involving him indirectly), is that they didn't actually establish HOW he was able to be so aware of his surroundings. He was basically acting like Daredevil, with heightened senses, as far as we could tell anyway, which, given his religious beliefs, would suggest he WAS actually using Force powers to do these things. But then the FFG books give his specialization, and state that he wasn't actually using the Force. And I seem to recall in some book (not the film that I was watching), they justify it that he had some kind of device that gave him like echo-location or whatever. Which again, ok fine. It's Star Wars, they have crazy technology, so someone who is blind having a device to help them see is perfectly reasonable. It's no different than a walking cane, or a seeing eye dog in my opinion. But they never actually ESTABLISHED it in the film. They played middle of the road, not committing to either interpretation, and just left it a big, muddy mess from a structure standpoint.

2 hours ago, KungFuFerret said:

My only real beef about Chirrut directly (meaning his character, I have tons of issues with other things involving him indirectly), is that they didn't actually establish HOW he was able to be so aware of his surroundings. He was basically acting like Daredevil, with heightened senses, as far as we could tell anyway, which, given his religious beliefs, would suggest he WAS actually using Force powers to do these things. But then the FFG books give his specialization, and state that he wasn't actually using the Force. And I seem to recall in some book (not the film that I was watching), they justify it that he had some kind of device that gave him like echo-location or whatever. Which again, ok fine. It's Star Wars, they have crazy technology, so someone who is blind having a device to help them see is perfectly reasonable. It's no different than a walking cane, or a seeing eye dog in my opinion. But they never actually ESTABLISHED it in the film. They played middle of the road, not committing to either interpretation, and just left it a big, muddy mess from a structure standpoint.

I figure that this murkiness was a result of the extensive retooling of the movie. Went one way with it originally, and changed it when the other director came in. Just a guess, though.

33 minutes ago, Stan Fresh said:

I figure that this murkiness was a result of the extensive retooling of the movie. Went one way with it originally, and changed it when the other director came in. Just a guess, though.

Yeah it most likely is, that doesn't excuse it for being a bit of messy storytelling though. A single line of added dialogue could've established the device to my satisfaction as to why he was Daredevil

I mean, it's not a big issue, I'll admit, but for me, that film was filled with so many little problems, they added up to an overall bad experience. Regarding Chirrut himself though, that's about the only one I have. He was a pretty well done character, for what little they gave us regarding him.

Yeah thinking Steel Hand/Force Adherrant/ and either Marauder or Martial Artist.

Then go with Sense as main ability.

Maybe Farseeing to get perception bonus

1 hour ago, KungFuFerret said:

Yeah it most likely is, that doesn't excuse it for being a bit of messy storytelling though      . 

Absolutely.

Messy is the right word to describe that movie. A lot of half-developed ideas and aborted threads in that one.

Quote

Kenobi: Remember, a Jedi can feel the Force flowing through him.

Skywalker: You mean it controls your actions?

Kenobi: Partially, but it also obeys your commands.

The way I saw and still see it, Imwe (and possibly Malbus*) could feel the Force and follow its guidance but was unable to effect it in return. So much so that he was the "blind badass" archetype, which is a pretty great adventure story means to portray that.

In-game, Destiny Points and narrative creativity are perfectly acceptable means to deal with that.

Could the movie have been more clear on that? Probably.

* The whole "face of a friend" could be seen as a "vibe" the Force was giving him.

1 hour ago, Aluminium Falcon said:

* The whole "face of a friend" could be seen as a "vibe" the Force was giving him.

Well Baze said that and he could see, so that's okay.

37 minutes ago, GroggyGolem said:

Well Baze said that and he could see, so that's okay.

Yeah, that's why I have it as a footnote alongside " and possibly Malbus".

The sighted interpretation works just fine but there is poetic wiggle room to the language allowing one to add a layer of the extra-sensory, should RPGers want to explore it as such.

3 minutes ago, Aluminium Falcon said:

Yeah, that's why I have it as a footnote alongside " and possibly Malbus".

The sighted interpretation works just fine but there is poetic wiggle room to the language allowing one to add a layer of the extra-sensory, should RPGers want to explore it as such.

True. They were both religious at one time.

On 9/20/2018 at 6:03 PM, KungFuFerret said:

My only real beef about Chirrut directly (meaning his character, I have tons of issues with other things involving him indirectly), is that they didn't actually establish HOW he was able to be so aware of his surroundings. He was basically acting like Daredevil, with heightened senses, as far as we could tell anyway, which, given his religious beliefs, would suggest he WAS actually using Force powers to do these things. But then the FFG books give his specialization, and state that he wasn't actually using the Force. And I seem to recall in some book (not the film that I was watching), they justify it that he had some kind of device that gave him like echo-location or whatever. Which again, ok fine. It's Star Wars, they have crazy technology, so someone who is blind having a device to help them see is perfectly reasonable. It's no different than a walking cane, or a seeing eye dog in my opinion. But they never actually ESTABLISHED it in the film. They played middle of the road, not committing to either interpretation, and just left it a big, muddy mess from a structure standpoint.

Yeah I have to agree with that, they established inn the dictionary for the film, but the closest we get in the film is him tilting his head,followed up with a close up of a Stormtroopers foot moving with a massively amplified noise. Then he hears the movement of a finger on a trigger.

I had actually meant to agree with you but now that I point it out they practically went out their way to make it more like daredevil/zatoichi than a jedi, they d id what they could.

As for him saying the force moves darkly about those that are about to kill, but this was immediately after he asked how Cassian looked, so its not clear if he is "seeing" this or asking, in a roundabout way if anyone else thought he was looking like he was going to kill (which strangely K2SO answered).

Ultimately though, in one of the related books they did say that if he concentrated hard enough and and in moments of true peace he could feel something that felt like the force to him. After the film they confirmed he wasnt force sensitive enough to do anything with it, although strangely Jyn Erso's mother had an ability to tell kyber from other identical looking crystal, which Chirrut could also do ,jyn's mother by sensing, Chirrut by hearing the crystal resonating.

38 minutes ago, syrath said:

Yeah I have to agree with that, they established inn the dictionary for the film, but the closest we get in the film is him tilting his head,followed up with a close up of a Stormtroopers foot moving with a massively amplified noise. Then he hears the movement of a finger on a trigger.

I had actually meant to agree with you but now that I point it out they practically went out their way to make it more like daredevil/zatoichi than a jedi, they d id what they could. .

Except they apparently contradict that in the extraneous material, and say it's some kind of device he was wearing around his neck. Which, again, I don't really care either way, I just wish they'd pick one and stick with it. And while I despise the idea that I'm required to read outside material in order for your film to make structural sense (which is a sign that your film's structure is unstable), I do think the device reasoning would make more sense if we're not establishing him as having some kind of Force Sense. If he's just a devout follower of the Force as a faith and philosophy, fine, makes perfect sense that people would, especially since they actually have verifiable proof of the supernatural stuff going on in their universe , that there would be people who would establish a religion around it. But when you suddenly go the "blind warrior with super senses" in a world where there actually IS a magic power to let people do that kind of stuff.....and you have him be a devout believer in said stuff....don't then undercut that by saying it wasn't any actual connection to the Force, and that it was just a device on his neck. That's just bad writing. When I saw the film, I assumed it was the Force Sensitive option, because yeah, they totally played up the mystic side of things. But then I came to these forums and saw people talking about "oh X Book explains it was some device, and it's been confirmed as canon in the dictionary for the film!" stuff, and I was like "ok dangit, make up your mind! Was he a semi-Force mystic or was he just a blind dude with a REALLY good prosthetic device?!?" It just clearly shows how much of a mess that film was on the production side, since apparently they couldn't even agree on what the actual methodology for what he was doing was.

46 minutes ago, syrath said:

As for him saying the force moves darkly about those that are about to kill, but this was immediately after he asked how Cassian looked, so its not clear if he is "seeing" this or asking, in a roundabout way if anyone else thought he was looking like he was going to kill (which strangely K2SO answered).

Not sure about this, I'm assuming you're quoting someone else, as I didn't make any comment about the force moves darkly or K2SO.

47 minutes ago, syrath said:

Ultimately though, in one of the related books they did say that if he concentrated hard enough and and in moments of true peace he could feel something that felt like the force to him. After the film they confirmed he wasnt force sensitive enough to do anything with it, although strangely Jyn Erso's mother had an ability to tell kyber from other identical looking crystal, which Chirrut could also do ,jyn's mother by sensing, Chirrut by hearing the crystal resonating.

Which again, implies he's got a semi-mystic angle to his abilities, but this is contradicted by the other printed material. so again, sloppy writing.

I really wanted to like that movie, and in all honesty, Chirrut was one of the few characters that was semi-enjoyable for me, as he had at least the outline of a personality. But Rogue One, to me anyway, died the death of a thousand cuts.

While researching this topic, I found a series of posts by Pablo Hidalgo explaining their perspective on Chirrut's force usage.

Short version: Chirrut is just so super awesome that even though he's not trained in the force, or even "force sensitive" in the traditional sense, he can still do force-like things. He then compared it to the RPG Force Point/Destiny Point usage, and to people like Bruce Lee.

Which get's back to my perspective. The real answer to "Is he force sensitive?" should have been: "That's a good question..."

But we live in a time when the fandom wants answers to questions that don't need answering, and the IP holders think they need to give a response. Questions that don't matter are accused of being "plot holes," and there's demand for backstory movies that sound cool off the cuff, but have trouble actually working out because it's not an actual movie we want. We really just want a series of 5-10 minute videos of cool scenes and ideas covering years and years of a character's life development, and not one specific story in which they are all encapsulated.

41 minutes ago, Ghostofman said:

Which get's back to my perspective. The real answer to "Is he force sensitive?" should have been: "That's a good question..."

But we live in a time when the fandom wants answers to questions that don't need answering, and the IP holders think they need to give a response.

To be fair, they were publishing other materials, like this game line, and knew fans would want information about that archetype. I agree, I much prefer the "build him however you want" concept, than "We'll make a specific template that encapsulates him", but I've accepted the fact that I am in the minority of gamers, who live and die by the fine details and rules refined down to how someone digests food and the rules for the texture of an outfit.

43 minutes ago, Ghostofman said:

But we live in a time when the fandom wants answers to questions that don't need answering, and the IP holders think they need to give a response. Questions that don't matter are accused of being "plot holes," and there's demand for backstory movies that sound cool off the cuff, but have trouble actually working out because it's not an actual movie we want. We really just want a series of 5-10 minute videos of cool scenes and ideas covering years and years of a character's life development, and not one specific story in which they are all encapsulated.

I disagree with this statement, as a movie that's all flash and no actual depth, is the single worst kind of movie for me personally, and a lot of other movie lovers. And in fact, that's exactly what Rogue One is. There is almost no attempt to actually flesh out any of the characters. They are given the most basic of archetypical backgrounds, and that's it. The movie runs entirely on fan service callbacks, and asplosions. And that's just not enough for me, and at least a reasonable slice of the fanbase. I remember one of the O66 hosts saying that Rogue One was, and I'm paraphrasing here "a Star Wars gaming group brought to life." And I think that is 100% correct, because they were poorly thought out, had only a handful of character points introduced, that are never brought up again, and they are just there to go from action encounter to action encounter. It's exactly the kind of skeleton background I've come to expect from a lot of roleplayers, who just have a basic concept in mind that they want to try out, and didn't really bother with, you know, actual depth to the character. "I'm a girl who hates the empire, and I don't follow the rules!" "I'm a rebel assassin who's been fighting the empire since I was six years old!" "I'm a guy with a big gun, and I'm friends with this guy!" "I'm the guy he's friends with, and I'm blind....but also not really!" "I'm a quirky robot that says odd things in odd ways!" "I'm the pilot!" (sadly that last one isn't even paraphrasing, that's all he ever says).

Eh, ok so, I don't want to derail this any further, so I'm just going to end it there. The character concept of Chirrut is pretty cool, and follows a long line of "Blind Warrior Bada$$es" tropes, and Donnie Yen's performance was very good, for what he had to work with. I just think the actual structure of the character was very piecemeal, and choppy, along with everything else in that film. I really wanted to enjoy that film, sadly it got in it's own way for accomplishing that goal.

1 hour ago, KungFuFerret said:

To be fair, they were publishing other materials, like this game line, and knew fans would want information about that archetype. I agree, I much prefer the "build him however you want" concept, than "We'll make a specific template that encapsulates him", but I've accepted the fact that I am in the minority of gamers, who live and die by the fine details and rules refined down to how someone digests food and the rules for the texture of an outfit.

I disagree with this statement, as a movie that's all flash and no actual depth, is the single worst kind of movie for me personally, and a lot of other movie lovers. And in fact, that's exactly what Rogue One is. There is almost no attempt to actually flesh out any of the characters. They are given the most basic of archetypical backgrounds, and that's it. The movie runs entirely on fan service callbacks, and asplosions. And that's just not enough for me, and at least a reasonable slice of the fanbase. I remember one of the O66 hosts saying that Rogue One was, and I'm paraphrasing here "a Star Wars gaming group brought to life." And I think that is 100% correct, because they were poorly thought out, had only a handful of character points introduced, that are never brought up again, and they are just there to go from action encounter to action encounter. It's exactly the kind of skeleton background I've come to expect from a lot of roleplayers, who just have a basic concept in mind that they want to try out, and didn't really bother with, you know, actual depth to the character. "I'm a girl who hates the empire, and I don't follow the rules!" "I'm a rebel assassin who's been fighting the empire since I was six years old!" "I'm a guy with a big gun, and I'm friends with this guy!" "I'm the guy he's friends with, and I'm blind....but also not really!" "I'm a quirky robot that says odd things in odd ways!" "I'm the pilot!" (sadly that last one isn't even paraphrasing, that's all he ever says).

Eh, ok so, I don't want to derail this any further, so I'm just going to end it there. The character concept of Chirrut is pretty cool, and follows a long line of "Blind Warrior Bada$$es" tropes, and Donnie Yen's performance was very good, for what he had to work with. I just think the actual structure of the character was very piecemeal, and choppy, along with everything else in that film. I really wanted to enjoy that film, sadly it got in it's own way for accomplishing that goal.

On character development, some of the characters saw more character development than even Han Solo did across a whole trilogy. In fact the only real major character development in the whole trilogy was the lead, and it shows what an unsung hero he was at the time. He had less of the limelight than , say, Harrison Ford did , but his portrayal of someone who starts off a whiny kid and ended up a centered Jedi Knight by the end was so well done in my opinion, and the same can be said for his alter ego, in Hayden Christensen, who in my mind also did a great job amid some terrible direction from George Lucas, the amount of character development fit into that one film was way more than we see across the entire O outside of Luke Skywalker.

That being said , we expect more from films nowadays and the OT wouldn't stand up to modern scrutiny nowadays if it were released as is and would be accused of effects over substance. That being given, what I will say, is what difference does it make if he is some kind of sci fi Zaitoichi or if he had a touch of the force in him, either way to me he was an awesome character. The blind part was actually not put in by Lucasfilm or the director or anyone else other than by suggestion of Donnie Yen himself, as he was allowed to flesh out his character the way he pleased. So if you must lay the blame put it on him and the director for allowing it, although it is quite possible that if they hadnt Donnie Yen , who was already reluctant to do the film because he would have to part with his kids for 3 month of filming, may not have agreed to the role (although it was apparently the kids that talked him into doing it).

12 minutes ago, syrath said:

On character development, some of the characters saw more character development than even Han Solo did across a whole trilogy.

?

14 minutes ago, syrath said:

That being given, what I will say, is what difference does it make if he is some kind of sci fi Zaitoichi or if he had a touch of the force in him, either way to me he was an awesome character.

I don't care either way, though I don't know who Zaitoichi is. My issue, as I stated multiple times, is their inconsistency with how he was doing what he was doing. Either reason would be fine with me, but when they can't decide on it, it's bad character structure. Now granted, in the film, this isn't really an issue, since it's never really stated either way, it's in the supplemental material where the inconsistency pops up. But, since this is Star Wars, that lives on selling you more stuff based on the films, this creates a problem, a problem that gets endlessly debated by fans, on things like a gaming forum about a Star Wars roleplaying game. When there didn't need to be a debate at all, if they were consistent

17 minutes ago, syrath said:

The blind part was actually not put in by Lucasfilm or the director or anyone else other than by suggestion of Donnie Yen himself, as he was allowed to flesh out his character the way he pleased. So if you must lay the blame put it on him and the director for allowing it, although it is quite possible that if they hadnt Donnie Yen , who was already reluctant to do the film because he would have to part with his kids for 3 month of filming, may not have agreed to the role (although it was apparently the kids that talked him into doing it).

Interesting, didn't know that, still doesn't change the fact that the other side of the Star Wars franchise, decided to NOT go with the "mystic blind guy" angle, and decided to go with "he's got a device that let's him kind of see things/people." Again, I don't care that they went the "mystic blind guy" route, I care that everywhere else they apparently went with "nah, he's totally not one with the Force, he's just got a device that let's him do stuff."

Anyway, not going to discuss this any further. This thread is about how to build Chirrut, not debate the flaws in his character concept.