Starting off with the basics here for the curious

Crab = Kani

Crane: Tsuru

Scorpion = Sasori

Lion = Raion

Phoenix =Fushichou

Unicorn = I kkakujuu

Dragon = R yuu

`After spending the last few hours thinking of this exact same question I too wanted to theorize what the clan names would be if they were in Japanese. As a speaker of the Japanese language I delved into what I thought would be the most realistic nomenclature for each great clan. Do take into account however, I only have a general understanding of Rokugan's lore and changes might need to be made to better represent the history and culture of the game world.

Starting of, I had to deal with the translation of "Clan" in Japanese this was relatively tricky for me as the as the kanji used to represent Samurai clans in real life don't seem to work in the context of Rokugan. For instance the Takeda clan in Japanese is either Takeda shi (武田氏) or Takeda ke (武田家). The problem here is that both Shi and Ke give a context of of a specific family ruling over the clan. Which is why all Japanese clans use family names. S hi's kanji (氏) implies the linage of a specific family and Ke's Kanji (家) literally means house, and implies a family's house that people serve under. So unless I misunderstand Rokugan's lore, the great clans are not governed by one family, but rather are a collection of various powerful families, and thus using the conventional Japanese translation doesn't make the most sense to me. My answer to this issue is to instead use the kanji zoku (族), this could be translated as a tribe or a group of people and I believe this represents the clans better in rokugan as the clans are more of groups of people/families with similar cultural heritage and philosophical backgrounds.

So without further ado, I present to you what I feel are the most realistic names for the great clans of Rokugan. I also give you the kanji that is used and the hiragana if you are a Japanese speaker/learner.

English Romaji Hiragana Kanji

Crab Clan Kaizoku かいぞく 蟹族

Crane Clan Kakuzoku かくぞく 鶴族

Dragon Clan Ryuuzoku りゅうぞく 龍族

Lion Clan Shishizoku ししぞく 獅子族

Phoenix Clan Hououzoku ほうおうぞく 鳳凰族

Scorpion Clan Katsuzoku かつぞく 蠍族

Unicorn Clan Kirinzoku きりんぞく 麒麟族

A few notes on the word choices for some of the clans. To those who are observant you might notice that my list looks extremely different from the one TheWanderingJewels made. This is because I used the On-yomi or Chinese readings of the kanji. So instead of using tsuru for Crane Clan I used kaku , both mean the exact same thing and use the same kanji, but kaku uses the Chinese readings giving a sense of formality, eloquence, and reverence to the name, which I felt was appropriate for revered-ancient clans that have long been part of the Emerald Empire. That being said just like how in Japanese, Japan can be called Nihon or Nippon , I would imagine that people could change the readings of the kanji depending on context and occasion for instance a towns person might choose to call the Crab Clan the Kanizoku to avoid connotation with pirates, while a Crane courtier would probably always use the Chinese readings to show off their education and high status.

A few other notes, I chose to use s hishi instead of raion because raion is just the word lion converted over to Japanese pronunciation and doesn't make since that an old-honored clan would use a foreign word to represent themselves. Shishi on the other-hand is a Chinese-style lion that would work perfectly to represent the Lion Clan. As Chinese culture was pretty much the guiding hand on making Japan the feudal samurai sate that we all know and love. For unicorn I used kirin instead of ikakkujuu , as that literately means "one edged (horned) beast," while kirin is, once again a mythical Chinese unicorn that feels more appropriate as a clan symbol. Lastly I decided on using h ouou instead of fushichou mainly because I already had an establish theme of mythological creatures from China, so I used houou , which, surprise surprise is a legendary Chinese phoenix that fit better with my naming conventions. Honestly though, fushichou would also work, as unlike i kakkujuu which sounds odd in Japanese, fushichou does indeed mean phoenix and could be used instead of houhou , whichever one you prefer.

Tl;dr: A bunch of Japanese language nonsense that can be ignored if you're just looking for Japanese words to throw into your stories to increase immersion.

Anyways I hope you enjoy my own interpretation of the great clan names in Japanese, feel free to comment, add corrections, or just give your general opinion on my list.

I'd rather go Shishi for Lion, more thematic and flavorful than just katakana-ized "lion."

Both of these are very useful, but allow me to point out some lore that may make you change your mind for the Unicorn.

At the dawn of the Empire, Shinjo created the Kirin clan. As her duty, she took on the task of exploring the world beyond her brother Hantei's new empire. Hundreds of years later, a group including families from the Kirin returned to Rokugan, accompanied by people and practices that they had picked up along their continent-wide migration. They called themselves the Unicorn clan.

Finally, a bit on the structure of the Great Clans. Most of them are ruled by a single family, descended from one of the Kami. There are other major families that are part of the clan, mostly descended from particularly influential retainers of the original founders. Slightly below them there are vassal families that owe allegiance to one of the major families, with names that most people wouldn't recognise. Combining that with @Tsukuyomi Kaguya 's information, it may be reasonable to call the Crab clan Hida shi etc.

Hey, Thanks.

I will freely admit that most of the names were offhanded translations (subject to revision) and I could not find a translation for Lion anywhere (it's been years since my classes) , and stuck Raion in as a placeholder. So Shishi works great for me.

The more refined version of the Crane's name ( Kakuzoku vs Tsuruzoku) I can have wordplay within court, if someone is wanting to be dismissive, yet not rude.

The Crab's use of Kaizoku/Kanizoku I was wondering about because I am currently reading some information on Japanese Pirates and thought that sounded familiar. Of course, given how...um...rough the Crab are at times, they might take the pirate reference in good humor

The Phoenix use of fushichouzoku or houhousoku really depends on where one is in the Phoenix lands I would think as I have noticed their families are a bit more insular than normal. I can see everyone else using houhouzoku to be polite.

The Unicorn’s use of ikakkujuuzoku or kirinzoku is a bit of a social minefield for all concerned. If ikakkujuu is being used by a Unicorn, they typically use it without thinking as they have pride in that name as it is what they have called themselves for as long as they can remember, and may take offense at being corrected by a well-meaning person trying to get them to use kirin. On the other hand, Anyone else’s usage of ikakkujuuzoku in subtle disparagement will likely be disappointed as the Unicorn often miss the finer points of court. If they use kirinzoku , the Unicorn might be momentarily confused as they have not used that reference in a while, but typically will be smart enough to take it as a compliment. For the protocol minded, this is a massive headache…

For curiosities sake, is there a more respectful version of the word Tiger than Tora? I have a minor clan that is a splinter of the Lion who had a bit of a mystical bent and favored physical enlightenment techniques and ‘no thought swordsmanship’ in motion.

Also, so Mantis Clan would be kamakirizoku ?

I have to wonder if it wouldn't have been better for FFG to have properly replaced the "Unicorn Clan" with the "Kirin Clan".

I feel like half the clans were made based entirely on European ideals (Lion and Unicorn are the symbols of Britain, if I am not mistaken) and things that just sounded "cool" (Japan really doesn't have deserts, not unless you count a bunch of sand dunes by the ocean with a big massive green forest in walking distance, and while a type of scorpion does exist there, it is not considered an important animal to Japanese culture, thus samurai culture, and there are about a dozen more appropriate animals that could have been chosen).

At some point later someone must have figured out that there is a mythological creature in Japan that is kind of like a Unicorn and that's why they made the story of the clan having changed its name. Though the Kirin is more like a big deer creature than a Unicorn. In fact, when people in Japan saw giraffes, they decided that those were "Kirin". And not just in Japan, for however much Mongollian, Chinese and Korean culture pop up in the game, the Unicorn as used as a symbol by the Unicorn clan just... isn't a thing.

At least with Lions, the "shishi" that one finds in front of nearly every temple in China, Korea and Japan were intended to be lions and just kind of got warped a bit because they were faithfully depicting inaccurate depictions of lions. But there really isn't much in the way of salvaging Unicorn and pretending it is at all derived from East Asian culture.

And so actually the story of the them having changed their name now makes it more difficult to handle if one were to ever try to translate the game and setting into Japanese.

4 hours ago, TheWanderingJewels said:

For curiosities sake, is there a more respectful version of the word Tiger than Tora? I have a minor clan that is a splinter of the Lion who had a bit of a mystical bent and favored physical enlightenment techniques and ‘no thought swordsmanship’ in motion.

Also, so Mantis Clan would be kamakirizoku ?

There is nothing disrespectful about Tora, it is a proper Japanese word that even has its own kanji (虎). Unlike "Raion", it isn't just an English word that is attempted to be sounded out phonetically using their far more limited language palette.

And, yes, Mantis Clan would be Kamakiri (蟷螂)

Japanese generally have words for animals that exist in Japan or China. But using any one that would have to be expressed in katakana would sound very odd to Japanese.

What really screws things up though is family names. Particularly those minor clans that the designers of the setting were unforgivably lazy with. Because those are going to sound so ridiculous to any Japanese person that the whole setting is no longer worthy of being taken seriously.

Just as no designer for the setting ever decided that one of the major Minor Clans should be the "Panda Clan" and have them use "Panda" as the family name. Because English adopted the word "Panda" directly from Chinese and that word is also used in Japanese, one could not escape the image of it and just having such a minor clan take a major part in the setting would make the entire thing seem clownish no matter how serious you tried to take it.

The very first thing you would want to do for the setting if you were translating it into Japanese would be to entirely purge it of those clans. Either erase their existence, or just substitute in like... literally any name imaginable for those names.

And then you have other families in the setting where their family names are very obviously given names and would never be used as family names. The Asako obviously spring to mind. You might as well have a family in Game of Thrones whose family name was "Isabella" Oh, you'd better fear the might warriors of the Isabella family! No one is more cruel than Lord Gregory Isabella!

This is why there has never been any serious attempt to try to ever translate this game into Japanese and sell it in Japan despite the fact that card games do well in Japan, perhaps better than in the west and Japanese would be interested in someone doing a card game based on something from their culture. But "Rokugan isn't Japan" does not hold water as an excuse for some of the faux pas and just really dumb decisions that having it made by people who don't know the first thing about Japanese culture or language but insisted on using Japanese culture and language cooked right into the setting.

Just as when the Japanese make something based on fantasy European setting and the English language despite not speaking it or understanding it nearly at all, they can majorly bungle stuff that would just stop anyone from taking the setting at all seriously and just sounds absolutely grating every time you hear it. And it isn't a matter of conflating that the setting is not in fact Europe, but that the use of wildly misapplied "Engrish" and just bizarre use and twisting of Christianity is just difficult to sit through.

So ultimately it is absolutely pointless to try to translate the setting to Japanese, and really.. one should stop pretending that the characters in the setting are speaking in Japanese and any consequences that might have. Because you don't have to get too deep into it before realizing that there are elements that are just absolute crap and a major edit of so many things in the setting would be necessary if you want it to remain something that could be taken seriously after translation.

10 hours ago, TheHobgoblyn said:

were made based entirely on European ideals ... and things that just sounded "cool"

Yeah that pretty much sums up the entirety of AEG L5R. It wasn't until FFG took over that we started seeing the current injection of EAS 101 into the setting.

I've leaned a lot on Stephen Turnbull and the Samurai Archives http://wiki.samurai-archives.com/index.php?title=Main_Page to help fill in the blank spaces and make adjustments. I also lean on chambara and jidaigeki to help fill in some details. I'm not going for historical simulation here, but a fun balance. I'm also not getting paid for this

The beginner box folios have kanji for the families... pulling up the kanji, then plugging them into google, got me some interesting renderings...

• Hida 避打 (hitting)
• Akodo 亞古努 (A Dedication)
• Dōji 堂字 (shōgun)
• Togashi 竜蛾仕 (Dragon Mortar or Dragon Tortoise)
• Isawa 威沢 (Prestige Swamp)
• Bayushi 抜由氏 (Mr. Lost)
• Shinjo 心助 (Encouragement)

Isawa and Bayushi were total surprises.

On 9/20/2018 at 2:35 AM, TheHobgoblyn said:

What really screws things up though is family names. Particularly those minor clans that the designers of the setting were unforgivably lazy with. Because those are going to sound so ridiculous to any Japanese person that the whole setting is no longer worthy of being taken seriously.

There is actually an explanation for this. The names as presented in fictions (say, Asako Lee) are a sort of "condensed forms" and are not meant to be "heard" like that. One's real Rokugani name is 'Given Name of Founder's Family', so with the above example Asako Lee is in fact 'Lee of Lady Asako's Family'. It is a bit awkward to constantly refer to people like this, so Rokugani condense names into the short forms we see all the time, for ease of use, but the long form is the real one everybody in Rokugan thinks about when they hear the short name. IIRC this was explained in one of the 2nd edition books, but never again for some reason.

Minor Clan families without an established founder get the extra twist of their real names referring back to the clan rather than the founder (since there is none). So Kitsune Yumiko would be 'Yumiko of the Family of the Fox (Clan)'.

3 hours ago, AtoMaki said:

There is actually an explanation for this. The names as presented in fictions (say, Asako Lee) are a sort of "condensed forms" and are not meant to be "heard" like that. One's real Rokugani name is 'Given Name of Founder's Family', so with the above example Asako Lee is in fact 'Lee of Lady Asako's Family'. It is a bit awkward to constantly refer to people like this, so Rokugani condense names into the short forms we see all the time, for ease of use, but the long form is the real one everybody in Rokugan thinks about when they hear the short name. IIRC this was explained in one of the 2nd edition books, but never again for some reason.

Minor Clan families without an established founder get the extra twist of their real names referring back to the clan rather than the founder (since there is none). So Kitsune Yumiko would be 'Yumiko of the Family of the Fox (Clan)'.

The problem with that interpretation is that there were Minor Clans without a name for a while, which is really odd. And I believe that the Mantis clan don't have a family name at this time in the current timeline, but refer to themselves by the ship they work on.

23 minutes ago, Tonbo Karasu said:

The problem with that interpretation is that there were Minor Clans without a name for a while, which is really odd. And I believe that the Mantis clan don't have a family name at this time in the current timeline, but refer to themselves by the ship they work on.

Well, yeah, if the Emperor does not give a Family name to your clan, then you are stuffed. But the logic still applies, you just have to replace the 'Family Founder' part with something else as your point of origin, like your ship or port.

Japanese family names are simply placed before the personal; family-less clans would use the "Clan no personal" mode... for example, Mukade no Ichirō = Ichiro of the Mukade clan. (Mukade means centipede).

On 9/22/2018 at 12:03 PM, Tonbo Karasu said:

The problem with that interpretation is that there were Minor Clans without a name for a while, which is really odd. And I believe that the Mantis clan don't have a family name at this time in the current timeline, but refer to themselves by the ship they work on.

Yes, or from their harbours, which I would favour as toponyms are one of the most common sources of surnames worldwide.

I enjoy this thread everytime it shows up.

The company that publishes the LCG in China (Emperor Penguin games) appears to have gone through and turned all the names into Japanese kanji then used those for the card titles. The database is here:

http://l5rcard.emperorpenguingames.com/

I don’t read or speak Chinese, but I have enough Japanese knowledge to pick out the unique named characters from the “title” non-uniques.

I thought this was the “official” list of kanji for the families until the RPG beginner set came out. The family names in the RPG are largely different than the ones Emperor Penguin Games came up with, and to be honest, I kind of like the Emperor Penguin Games names better on the whole. They feel more “Japanese,” like either someone really good at Japanese (maybe even a native speaker) came up with them.

Take Togashi:

EPG: 富樫 (existing Japanese surname)

FFG’s RPG: 竜  蛾  仕 (doesn’t show up in Jim Breen’s name dictionary, feels like ateji)

Or Shinjo:

EPG: 新条 (one of the numerous existing Japanese surnames for Shinjō, simplifying 條 to 条)

FFG’s RPG: 心助 (could not find as a word or surname on Jim Breen’s; likely to be read as given name “Shinsuke”)

And Hida:

EPG: 樋田 (existing Japanese surname)

FFG’s RPG: 避打 (again, feels like ateji)

For a lot of names like Akodo there is no actual Japanese equivalent, so ateji (phonetically assigning kanji to individual sounds) is the only choice. It’s possible FFG wanted to make the names consistent in this way; i.e. they may have decided if you have to ateji some of them, might as well ateji all of them.

But then the given names like Hida Sugi’s “杉” and Isawa Aki’s “秋” are normal non-ateji readings, which gives a bit of inconsistency.

They simply don't have anyone on staff who has any familiarity with Japanese at all. It really doesn't go much beyond that.

The funny thing about that is-- Japan is one of the biggest card game markets on earth. Most of the card games played around the world come from Japan.

But there are so many bad choices that just trying to sell this setting in Japan is likely to be a **** show. I had hoped that many would have gone away once the setting was rest, but FFG was clearly reluctant to reset the setting to that sort of extent. They felt compelled to keep every single family name and minor clan and location name...

They probably should have kept a lid on the whole officially assigning kanji to families until they at least had a Japanese staff member.

There are some regular patterns to Japanese names (both familial and personal)... the 2 kanji and one-reading-type-per-name-element rules are broken both in L5R and real life, but in L5R more often than in real life.

For the unaware: each kanji has at least 2 "readings" - 1 to 5 "on-yomi" ("chinese" pronunciations), and most have 2 or more "kun-yomi" (japanese words linked to the meaning of the kanji); I've seen upwards of 6 kun-yomi for some kanji, excepting certain ones which are used ONLY for names, and have only on-yomi. The same two kanji can produce upwards of 10 different sounding names, with subtly different but tightly related meanings. The readings are usually 1-3 syllables per kanji.

Very few japanese name parts exceed 3 kanji. Most are 2 kanji, 1 is uncommon, 3 is rare, 4+ is very rare. This means most names are 4-5 syllables per name unit (clan/family/sept, personal, descriptive).

Japanese names also tended to be more fluid than our society - one could (and often, historically, did) change it at gempukku, again at retirement, sometimes upon major change in station, and sometimes after a great victory; one's family name could change due to adult adoption (something referenced also in L5R 2 & 3).

Some of the L5R names use the shortest readings available... building it up phonetically...

shi "氏" as a suffix indicates the preceding kanji are a family name. It's not used on the folio displayed names...
Togashi is rendered as 竜蛾仕 ... dragon, moth, specification, 竜 dragon 蛾仕 tortoise
Looking at the standard list (from Ministry of education)
竜 RYUWU ・ RYOWU ・ ROWU ・ tatsu ・ ise
蛾 (not in standard list) {ga}
仕 SHI ・ ZI ・ tsukaeru

At the same time, it appears that they may have someone on staff (or someone on staff knows a person who's helping them out) that at least has some knowledge of Japanese; assigning ateji at all would require at least some knowledge. There are also certain terminology changes in the new version of the RPG that imply at least a bit of Japanese knowledge (for example, they changed the lowest caste name to "burakumin," though that is problematic in different ways.)

The more I think about it, the ateji approach to the family names in the RPG lends a sort of Hokkaido feel to them. A lot of place names in Hokkaido are just kanji assigned phonetically to the old Ainu names for the places, so while they are in theory readable, they don't sound or feel the same as central Japanese surnames do. It would be kind of cool in a way if this was an intentional move on FFG's part to make the setting more "Rokugani" and less "Japanese," but I'm not sure it's intentional.

Ultimately, I think it's more that FFG neither has the resources or inclination to make the names and terminology "authentically" Japanese. Some of the basic setting terminology ("shugenja" and "maho-tsukai" come to mind) is so well established in the setting that changing them would result in opposition from fans, and the same holds true for the names.

It would be interesting to know how the original creators of L5R 20 years ago came up with some of the family names. Where did they get Akodo from? Was Mirumoto supposed to be Miyamoto? If FFG had that information (and I doubt they did) they could have tried to redo a lot of the names, but again, I think a large part of the fan base would be opposed to changing the names of setting iconic characters such as Akodo Toturi unless they just went ahead and changed the character completely.

Incidentally, author Marie Brennan (who does some L5R work) made an interesting blog post about the use of Japanese in L5R:

https://www.swantower.com/essays/craft/pleaser-dont-doed-thising/

1 hour ago, Suzume Tomonori said:

Ultimately, I think it's more that FFG neither has the resources or inclination to make the names and terminology "authentically" Japanese. Some of the basic setting terminology ("shugenja" and "maho-tsukai" come to mind) is so well established in the setting that changing them would result in opposition from fans, and the same holds true for the names.

Shugenja is the name for practitioners of a particular sect: shugenja, 修験者 "Mountaineering Ascetic"; practicing shugendō ( 修験道 , literally "the way of shugen , or gen -practice"), a syncretic hybrid of Shintō, Buddhism, Mountain Worship, and a few other imported religions of the foundational era in the 600's...

Shugenja as presented are actually practicing a form of Shugendō — the same influences forming a similar religious theology and praxis. In no small irony, by giving tribute to the Bushidō RPG, John got it right in meaning. The term yamabushi 山伏 is a near-synonym to synonym (depending upon source) meaning either mountain priest or itinerant monk.... were it not for the confusion yamabushi would create, it would be just as valuable a term.

Mahō (魔法) translates as "magic" in the spell-casting sense - but also to sorcery or witchcraft; tsukai 使い to use; Mahōtsukai 魔法使い translates as witchcraft.

Both are in fact authentically japanese terms; both also with meanings not far from the use in L5R.

Many haven't done the due diligence to actually dig to find out that they're more than JUST ateji.

Shinsei, for example, plugs into Google Translate in kana, resulting in "a teacher"... but I cannot find a kanji word with that reading and meaning combined, so it may be ateji... but, looking over on HiPenpal.com, I find it as a male personal name with the following kanji: 心星, 新世, 新生, 真晟, 真聖. 新生 is the one that has the default read on Google Translate as shinsei... "newborn" or "rebirth"... given the pun... yeah...

FFG clearly has someone at least passingly familiar with Kanji... several staffers self-describe as fans of Japanese culture. Ostrander-san seems to be nihonog-no-otaku

John Wick, who wrote 1E, is definitely nihongo-no-otaku. L5R isn't his only samurai game, either. (Blood and Honor is the other I know of. I've run it. It's more gritty, and yet, also more open to chanbarra feel... )

Many, many of the names over the years from the AEG side have been incredibly hilarious double entendré, but one who isn't a japanese speaker has to dig hard to find the meanings. (I love kanji; spoken japanese drives me insane — not that it's a long trip — as the double meanings and homophones are so thick as to make it indecipherable for me.)

You are correct in that the Japanese shugenja is a mountain ascetic, which is kind of my point; it is something quite different from the L5R shugenja (and would not connotate magic powers.)

Maho-tsukai more or less works, save that in Rokugan it clearly means a magician using a sort of dark, forbidden, evil magic, whereas in contemporary Japanese it’s a very neutral term for a wizard; both the Wizard of Oz and Harry Potter are maho-tsukai.

the majority of words mahō lists as translating to into English have STRONG negative connotations sorcery, witchcraft. For better or worse, that term is used in the game as it's english translation...

And L5R has the "priest good, sorcerer bad" trope all over it. One that's also in a lot of manga and anime.

In D&D terms - maho would be arcane, and kiho and shugenja would be divine magic, tho' kiho could also be psionic.

It's axiomatic that in rokugan, those who use magic (other than priestly invocation of the good kami) are evil, vile and dangerous, and the term that best answers that role that can be found by casual students is mahō.

Likewise, Shugenja, as a synonym for yamabushi (who technically are a subset of shugenja) are priests; remember the Priests good, sorcerers bad trope. The two work together. Priests are part of the Celestial Order. Mahōtsukai are often not part of it. And, most religions do believe their priests have some supernatural abilities, even if subtle and invisible. (even some non-clerical faiths have beliefs in supernatural power from either collective works or right living.)

John's focus wasn't "Modern Japan"... nor even "Historical Japan"... it was on a mythical japan writ larger than life, with epic stories, and focusing on honor and duty vs personal gains... Mahō vs Kami o yobidasukadō is one such conflict.

6 hours ago, AK_Aramis said:

the majority of words mahō lists as translating to into English

I'm referring to the Japanese term, not the English translations. But like I said, its usage in L5R is not really wrong, just somewhat limited (I may be mistaken, but I was to the understanding that it specifically refers to corrupt blood magic in L5R.)

However, think it is a stretch to use the Japanese term shugenja to mean priest. The point I'm making is that in Japanese it is a mountain ascetic, which means someone who has removed themselves from society in order to engage in their religious practice. L5R shugenja (for the most part) are quite the opposite; they remain firmly involved in society and most of them enjoy prestige within their clan as a result of their abilities. I also would not consider a mountain ascetic to be synonymous with a priest, as the latter implies an involvement with the lay people or a congregation while the former implies a withdrawal from society.

And yet, @Suzume Tomonori , yamabushi is consistently equated with shugenja, and translates as priest. And both refer to practitioners of shugendō. And Shugendo is pretty much what shinseism is: a syncretic hybrid of Shinto and Buddhism.

Attempting to reduce a term to a one-word translation results in a loss of important context, nuance, and meaning.