5 hours ago, TheHobgoblyn said:

Here is the point where it matters...

Beginning box adventure (at least as delivered by the play through I was listening to). A group of ronin (might have been Scorpion in disguise, but that hardly matters as they chose to present as ronin) go into a sake house near Kyuden Kakita where the Topaz Championship is currently taking place and begin hassling, openly insulting and harassing the contestants for the championship.

And they are allowed to do this? They are even allowed anywhere near Kyuden Kakita, much less allowed to confront the contestants within a well-known Crane-favored sake house?

How?!! Why?!! That entirely undermines any kind of attempt to sell Ronin as some sort of social outcasts or pariah, they can just barge into what should be one of the most exclusive places and begin hurling insults at the most promising youths in the empire and no one outside possibly the PCs just up and cuts them down on the spot for this?

And if they weren't Scorpion in disguise, how exactly could this band of ronin be making the kind of living that they would be able to afford to go to such places? This isn't a post-apocalyptic frontiers world like D&D where random adventurers are going to be digging up ancient lost treasures in dungeons that are worth more than the collective value of the entire town they visited. This is a very well-settled, very well-organized feudal system where the primary way for any samurai to have any place to live, be able to eat and be able to maintain their equipment is entirely provided by their boss. And Ronin by definition have no boss.

They can get mercenary work, but that heavily implies a battle and whenever there is a battle, a significant portion of the participants die-- so most Ronin are not going to survive even one instance of mercenary work, much less be able to do such a thing often enough to actually make a living from it. If they were working as bandits, they would be wanted by the law and certainly wouldn't be presenting themselves in the wide open in what surely must be one of the most guarded areas in all of Rokugan-- they would be spotted, recognized and arrested/killed.

They just get tossed into the story without any thought or reason. We need an antagonist force, but are too cowardly to make any particular clan the antagonist-- throw in ronin. We just now thought of making a clan with whatever new animal avatar, but you can't have a minor clan with like 1 guy... that's fine hundreds of ronin show up and swear allegiance. This one guy is on the outs with all of the clans, but he obviously needs an army-- that's okay, ronin flock to his side by the thousands.

It is such a lazy writing crutch that it is entirely setting breaking-- you can only do these things so many times before it starts coming across that the ronin vastly outnumber clan samurai despite apparently also having a big social stigma against them and the simple fact that there is no functional way for them to be making a living given the strict feudal system that has such a firm grip across the entirety of the land. At least no functional way unless they were immortal, universally vastly superior to Clan samurai or just spawn like fungus so that if one dies, dozens of more ronin grow in its place. Because if their only choice of occupation is one likely to get them killed and they do get killed in the first story, that means they just became a ronin and took this job since the last time they ate or they have somehow been previously successful in these actions which would have meant overcoming similar threats to the one presented in the story despite also clearly having no ability to do so.

I mean, think of it this way.. if Ronin are the ones leading the bandits and Clan samurai are the ones protecting the merchant, then either this is the first time the Ronin has attacked a merchant like this which means they haven't been a ronin very long or they have made a living of killing Clan samurai with their vastly superior combat abilities. If Ronin are the ones guarding the carvans as well, then every time a bandit attack happens on a caravan there must have been 2 samurai who previously lost their station-- and in this battle one lives, the other dies... and, either way, neither one will continue to have a living unless this is happening pretty consistently. This is especially true in the case of the bandit one who needs to overcome another opponent each and every time he needs to make some money.

And if you just consider what the lifestyle of a ronin would then have to be-- that any given ronin's chance of dying during any given month is going to be about 50%-- either they will get (or undertake) a job where they have a 50% chance of dying or they won't get a job and have about a 50% chance of simply starving to death because they have no income. If anyone has only 50% chance of making it through any given month, then consider just how low one's chances of surviving for a single year are. And consider how many thousands of ronin there must have been at the beginning of the year for there to be any at the end of the year.

But we are also supposed to apparently believe that they are just as well off as Clan samurai and no one thinks it is strange for them to burst in on and active antagonize pre-gempukku samurai in a samurai-favored establishment a stonethrows away from a Great Clan family's main castle?

Well we know that the Crane have been making ample use of Ronin for their on going conflict with the Lion so it shouldn't come as much of a surprise that their are more of them than expected in their lands and they currently have an influx of resources. And while yes conflicts are highly dangerous not every combatant dies from every encounter, especially groups like Ronin and Bandits who are more going to be more inclined to retreat if things are turning against them.

7 hours ago, TheHobgoblyn said:

Here is the point where it matters...

Beginning box adventure (at least as delivered by the play through I was listening to). A group of ronin (might have been Scorpion in disguise, but that hardly matters as they chose to present as ronin) go into a sake house near Kyuden Kakita where the Topaz Championship is currently taking place and begin hassling, openly insulting and harassing the contestants for the championship.

And they are allowed to do this? They are even allowed anywhere near Kyuden Kakita, much less allowed to confront the contestants within a well-known Crane-favored sake house?

How?!! Why?!! That entirely undermines any kind of attempt to sell Ronin as some sort of social outcasts or pariah, they can just barge into what should be one of the most exclusive places and begin hurling insults at the most promising youths in the empire and no one outside possibly the PCs just up and cuts them down on the spot for this?

And if they weren't Scorpion in disguise, how exactly could this band of ronin be making the kind of living that they would be able to afford to go to such places? This isn't a post-apocalyptic frontiers world like D&D where random adventurers are going to be digging up ancient lost treasures in dungeons that are worth more than the collective value of the entire town they visited. This is a very well-settled, very well-organized feudal system where the primary way for any samurai to have any place to live, be able to eat and be able to maintain their equipment is entirely provided by their boss. And Ronin by definition have no boss.

They can get mercenary work, but that heavily implies a battle and whenever there is a battle, a significant portion of the participants die-- so most Ronin are not going to survive even one instance of mercenary work, much less be able to do such a thing often enough to actually make a living from it. If they were working as bandits, they would be wanted by the law and certainly wouldn't be presenting themselves in the wide open in what surely must be one of the most guarded areas in all of Rokugan-- they would be spotted, recognized and arrested/killed.

They just get tossed into the story without any thought or reason. We need an antagonist force, but are too cowardly to make any particular clan the antagonist-- throw in ronin. We just now thought of making a clan with whatever new animal avatar, but you can't have a minor clan with like 1 guy... that's fine hundreds of ronin show up and swear allegiance. This one guy is on the outs with all of the clans, but he obviously needs an army-- that's okay, ronin flock to his side by the thousands.

It is such a lazy writing crutch that it is entirely setting breaking-- you can only do these things so many times before it starts coming across that the ronin vastly outnumber clan samurai despite apparently also having a big social stigma against them and the simple fact that there is no functional way for them to be making a living given the strict feudal system that has such a firm grip across the entirety of the land. At least no functional way unless they were immortal, universally vastly superior to Clan samurai or just spawn like fungus so that if one dies, dozens of more ronin grow in its place. Because if their only choice of occupation is one likely to get them killed and they do get killed in the first story, that means they just became a ronin and took this job since the last time they ate or they have somehow been previously successful in these actions which would have meant overcoming similar threats to the one presented in the story despite also clearly having no ability to do so.

I mean, think of it this way.. if Ronin are the ones leading the bandits and Clan samurai are the ones protecting the merchant, then either this is the first time the Ronin has attacked a merchant like this which means they haven't been a ronin very long or they have made a living of killing Clan samurai with their vastly superior combat abilities. If Ronin are the ones guarding the carvans as well, then every time a bandit attack happens on a caravan there must have been 2 samurai who previously lost their station-- and in this battle one lives, the other dies... and, either way, neither one will continue to have a living unless this is happening pretty consistently. This is especially true in the case of the bandit one who needs to overcome another opponent each and every time he needs to make some money.

And if you just consider what the lifestyle of a ronin would then have to be-- that any given ronin's chance of dying during any given month is going to be about 50%-- either they will get (or undertake) a job where they have a 50% chance of dying or they won't get a job and have about a 50% chance of simply starving to death because they have no income. If anyone has only 50% chance of making it through any given month, then consider just how low one's chances of surviving for a single year are. And consider how many thousands of ronin there must have been at the beginning of the year for there to be any at the end of the year.

But we are also supposed to apparently believe that they are just as well off as Clan samurai and no one thinks it is strange for them to burst in on and active antagonize pre-gempukku samurai in a samurai-favored establishment a stonethrows away from a Great Clan family's main castle?

You vastly overestimate the fatality rate of medieval combat. Especially for properly armed, armored, and trained combatants like Ronin.

4 hours ago, Waywardpaladin said:

You vastly overestimate the fatality rate of medieval combat. Especially for properly armed, armored, and trained combatants like Ronin.

Poorly armed, armored, trained, and MOTIVATED. These guys will absolutely run to fight another day.

Clan samurai who escape to save their skins bring dishonor not only upon themselves, but their families, their ancestors- they fight for duty, for their clans, because it is their purpose in life (not to say they're perfect, but they're highly motivated to, if not prevail, to go down honorably).

Ronin? You're fighting for money you need to be alive to spend. Heroic last stands, valiant efforts culminating in a glorious death... these things are considerably less tempting to someone whose loyalties are essentially personal. Even an otokodate is going to be loyal to its membership first and foremost, and it doesn't sound like that's who the Crane have been hiring anyway.

1 hour ago, Shiba Gunichi said:

Poorly armed, armored, trained, and MOTIVATED. These guys will absolutely run to fight another day.

Clan samurai who escape to save their skins bring dishonor not only upon themselves, but their families, their ancestors- they fight for duty, for their clans, because it is their purpose in life (not to say they're perfect, but they're highly motivated to, if not prevail, to go down honorably).

Ronin? You're fighting for money you need to be alive to spend. Heroic last stands, valiant efforts culminating in a glorious death... these things are considerably less tempting to someone whose loyalties are essentially personal. Even an otokodate is going to be loyal to its membership first and foremost, and it doesn't sound like that's who the Crane have been hiring anyway.

"I never know where my next meal will come from. What do I care who sits upon the throne?"
- Hitofu, Ronin .

Mercenaries are in it to get paid, not to die for the cause.

Also, the ronin are hassling what socially amounts to teenagers. They haven’t passed their gempukku yet, they’re not samurai yet while the ronin technically are, so there’s less of an immediate repercussion from the social grey area.

Are these so-called most promising gempukku candidates incapable of handling their own affairs? Can they not handle a couple heckling ronin? They shouldn't even need someone else to intervene unless it gets violent, and even then unless the ronin initiate the violence it's debatable whether anyone who isn't a magistrate or has a personal stake in the fight would have cause to get involved. If anything I suspect Crane samurai would see it as a test of how well the candidates handle the situation, and just let things play out.

Schmoozies established why the ronin would be in the area. As to why they are there heckling kids - is it spoilers to say they got paid to do that particular thing? My bet is they expected to laugh at some kids, incite a melee, and hopefully run fast enough to disappear back into the Crane mercenary troops. I doubt you'd even need to pay them that much to attempt it. Like "don't engage. they're a bunch of hot-headed kids with clan biases and something to prove, they'll beat each other."

Reading up the old Winter Court: Kyuden Kakita, there's a big section on Ronin at court.

One thing that is mentioned is children can end up as Ronin - one example given is that the child of a Samurai and a Geisha is often recognised as Samurai by birth but not claimed by the clan; presumably similar situations might occur for 'favoured illegitimate children' where provision can be made to give them swords but it's politically impossible to recognise their bloodline even if "everyone knows" whose child they are.

Little off topic: One advantage of being Ronin is you can choose to follow only orders of killing goblins.

4 hours ago, Yogo Rye X said:

Little off topic: One advantage of being Ronin is you can choose to follow only orders of killing goblins.

Yes and no. You take the daimyo's gold, you in return follow the daimyo's orders. If you're attached to an army, it's because you have (presumably) sworn to obey them.

Theoretically, you can refuse an immoral or dishonourable order (put on this other family's colours and go massacre a few helpless villagers), break your agreement and refuse to serve further. But then you're breaking your own sworn word, which along with your steel is the only thing you have to sell.

52 minutes ago, Magnus Grendel said:

Yes and no. You take the daimyo's gold, you in return follow the daimyo's orders. If you're attached to an army, it's because you have (presumably) sworn to obey them.

Theoretically, you can refuse an immoral or dishonourable order (put on this other family's colours and go massacre a few helpless villagers), break your agreement and refuse to serve further. But then you're breaking your own sworn word, which along with your steel is the only thing you have to sell  .

That's why its more convenient if daimyo placed their requests in an official Adventurer's Guild instead. ?

3 hours ago, Yogo Rye X said:

That's why its more convenient if daimyo placed their requests in an official Adventurer's Guild instead. ?

Ah I See you are also a man of culture.

You just need to be careful as killing too many goblins may get you recruited to the Crab Clan whether you want it or not.

17 minutes ago, Schmoozies said:

Ah I See you are also a man of culture.

You  just need to be careful as killing too many goblins may get you recruited to the Crab Clan whether you want it or not.  

Only ever kill 19 goblins

5 minutes ago, Doji Hyōkin said:

Only ever kill 19 goblins

But than you may let one live to become a champion and that would be bad (especially if it gets its hands on the Ancestral Sword of the Phoenix). The only good Goblin is a dead goblin.

19 hours ago, Doji Hyōkin said:

Only ever kill 19 goblins

Nah. You just have to wait and kill the last one in summer.