40 minutes ago, Norsehound said:

"You say you die to accuracies and xi7s? Don't sail into Ackbar range."

No, your opponent is bringing an ISD of some form designed to kill ships as soon as possible, like a Cymoon with XI7s and H9s with Vader as a commander. He's gunning for your VSD- it's not something you can just avoid. Besides, what if Ackbar is sitting on an objective- you just concede all those points to him?

"Why MUST you deploy in the center of the board instead of in a corner as an artillery piece?"
after padding out your deployment, your VSD drops in some corner as a flanker piece. He deploys the rest of his ships in the opposite corner, then scoots the flotilla and all fighters to rejoin his formation. If you're lucky, your speed 2 VSD gets to maybe shoot something on turn 5-6 as it's chasing your opponent's ships. Voicing your complaints on the forum, other forum posters tell you, "You should have deployed your VSD in the center like you're supposed to, to make up for how slow they are, with Jerjerrod."

"Why MUST you take second player if you have other first player ships?"

As second player Rieekan decides to camp with Yavaris on his extreme end of the board for Contested outpost and drop down to speed 0, allowing a flotilla forward to contest the outpost. Under Station assault and Solar corona, he's dropped down to speed 0, waiting for you to get close to him to engage.

In another situation you manage to do it. Your ISD crushes enemies, your fighters swat your opponents, and you've managed to win. Your DCAP VSD, on a flanking maneuver, never fired once in the entire match. You're wondering if it's a more efficient use of your points, or if you should buy Demolisher instead. You also figure that would make a better distraction on top of actually getting to the battle sooner. (This actually happened with me).

"Why MUST you run it light if it kills more ships on the way out or provides the ability to kill more?"

On the approach, your over-loaded VSD runs afowl of a 2x ISD list that deploys in such a way with the flanker at speed 3 and the anvil at speed 1. You're pinched between two ISDs that annihilate you easily with XI7s, then you wonder why you put so many points and your commander on a slow moving target.

"So you're using your other ships to beat UP those heavies or carriers right? You're not just sailing ships into death, conga line style right?"

Taking two VSDs, you prepare to pinch that MC75 that Sato is driving down the middle, thinking you can crush him in between you even though he's got projection experts out of a Pelta throwing shields on the gunnery-team equipped 75. After mauling both of your VSDs on the approach, he uses his side arcs to fire upon both ships, destroying them. He squeaks out of range before your fighters can catch up to it, and your Gladiator that rounds out the list is busy attacking the MC30 on the opposite side of the board. (this actually happened to me in a tournament setting, which is part of the reason I ended up in last place that day. I thought my 2x VSDs could handle it, since one would expect two mediums to finish a heavy.)

Cymoons/Raddus/squadrons: so, you're taking objectives that let you fight them right? Or one's that help you if you do face them, right? You can't prep for everything, so you're prepping for the fleets you either expect to face or know you need a good answer to, right? That's why I'm running 2 dust cloud objectives with Leia, because I need Cymoon protection.

Your opponent fields a list designed to make points off of killing ships and ignore the objective than allowing you to score points, jamming two ISDs at you and deploying to pick one ship off at a time. Even though you have contested outpost, suddenly there are two large ships focus-firing on your VSD.

To prepare a VSD list with everything you need to face it, you have to take...well, the upgrades of Tua and Brunsen, to give the ships the best protection they can and make up where the VSD is lacking. Especially in a field dominated by meta-popular heavies that melt ships if they can. When I field VSDs I take Contested Oupost / Station Assault / Solar corona as a baseline because I need to force my opponent to come to my table so that I can bludgeon him with my slow-*** ships. If I get crazy, I try Hyperspace assault with a wild VSD-I in hopes that I can pop out and use the VSD-I's battery at close range.

Knowing that VSDs in an assault roll will likely have to crawl across enemy fire, I pick situations where my opponents have to wade through my shots. Hence, a lot of objectives to that effect, and bidding deep for second player.

"So does the ISD. Why is THAT so expensive? I don't have enough for 5 raiders when I run the ISD, so fighters hurt me."

Yet the ISD has the capacity to command more amazing anti-fighter squadrons, a natural defense slot for ECM against large batteries, has two AA, a larger battery, and has greater protection than the VSD. I have also never heard anyone ask, "Why should I take ISDs? VSDs are cheaper and do a lot of the same things."

I think you're exactly right, and large ships just emphasize the shortcomings of the VSDs. Back in Wave 1, VSDs were nigh-insurmountable because there weren't a lot of large-battery ships flying around in order to punish their shortcomings. They really have been made obsolete by the ISD, true to lore, and they've been struggling with various updates since.

Gunnery team VSDs have the power to punch out lighter ships just as easily as they did in Wave 1 days. Problem is, as you say, it's vogue to run big ships. So now you have a choice; up-gun to fight toe-to-toe with other heavies that are present in most metas, or make your VSDs in such a way that won't hurt when you lose them.

FWIW, I think VSDs are one or two upgrades away from being the fantastic ships they should be. Give them some ability to move effective speed 3 and you got your flanker, or VSD-Is can make that lethal pounce they need when they wish. Give them more protective options and they can stand toe-to-toe with heavies and actually have their discount felt in a meta game, even if their batteries are smaller and they command less fighters.

This, as I've been debating. Those weaknesses I feel are speed and protection. Fix one definitively and the VSD has a way to compete.

Excellent post!

You forget that they are incredibly weak against squadrons. Well, I guess most ships are, but the vsd is both fairly large a target and so slow, so it's even worse.

I can't wait for the VSD-1 Nerfs guys.

PS Initial dice roll was 2 accuracys, double hit, 3 hit/crits, 2 hits....

6 hours ago, TallGiraffe said:

I can't wait for the VSD-1 Nerfs guys.

PS Initial dice roll was 2 accuracys, double hit, 3 hit/crits, 2 hits....

"Is it possible to learn this power?"

-Not a Jedi Master

14 minutes ago, Piratical Moustache said:

"Is it possible to learn this power?"

-Not a Jedi Master

Not from a Jedi.

1 hour ago, cynanbloodbane said:

Not from a Jedi.

-The Senate

21 minutes ago, Piratical Moustache said:

-The Senate

- Jarjar Binks

9 hours ago, TallGiraffe said:

I can't wait for the VSD-1 Nerfs guys.

PS Initial dice roll was 2 accuracys, double hit, 3 hit/crits, 2 hits....

Kinda makes up for how frustrating super evasive lists are where VSD-Is never have a prayer of entering range... (of say an ARQ battery or Ackbar conga line that keeps side-stepping).

Once upon a time, back in my first Massing at Sullust event, I took a VSD-I with Expanded Launchers and Sensor teams. I didn't win first place but I still remember making a fresh GSD disappear in one shot. The times I've tried to replicate this success, enemies easily flew away and hammered me at long range (as they should, see above). I keep asking why and end up posting my answers in threads like this.

27 minutes ago, Coranhann said:

- Jarjar Binks

- Ben

31 minutes ago, Norsehound said:

Once upon a time, back in my first Massing at Sullust event, I took a VSD-I with Expanded Launchers and Sensor teams. I didn't win first place but I still remember making a fresh GSD disappear in one shot. The times I've tried to replicate this success, enemies easily flew away and hammered me at long range (as they should, see above). I keep asking why and end up posting my answers in threads like this.

I played Vader VSD1 with Spinals at a regional back in Wave4 and ended up with an enemy ISD in close range which translated to 4 reds and 4 blacks with Vader reroll (and with ER it could've been 4 reds and 6 blacks).

41 minutes ago, PT106 said:

I played Vader VSD1 with Spinals at a regional back in Wave4 and ended up with an enemy ISD in close range which translated to 4 reds and 4 blacks with Vader reroll (and with ER it could've been 4 reds and 6 blacks).

That was before they nerfed VSDs

?

On ‎9‎/‎17‎/‎2018 at 8:44 PM, Norsehound said:

FWIW, I think VSDs are one or two upgrades away from being the fantastic ships they should be. Give them some ability to move effective speed 3 and you got your flanker, or VSD-Is can make that lethal pounce they need when they wish. Give them more protective options and they can stand toe-to-toe with heavies and actually have their discount felt in a meta game, even if their batteries are smaller and they command less fighters.

This, as I've been debating. Those weaknesses I feel are speed and protection. Fix one definitively and the VSD has a way to compete.

Thing is, though, I kind of feel like this moves the point of the VSD.

I mean, as noted, the VSD so far really feels like a strictly-inferior ISD - its role easily and obviously replaced by the ISD in the Imperial lineup.

Which...I mean, that's right, yes? That's what they are SUPPOSED to have been?

So I don't think the answer is to look for an upgrade to make them 'competitive' again - especially given once getting well into the upgrades, a VSD is getting priced like an ISD, and at which point...?why?

Rather, I think what we need to do is re-evaluate the pricing on the VSD. It's issue isn't that it doesn't fit the role it historically played. It definitely DOES . It's... like ...an ISD. But less powerful, more fragile, smaller, slower...a relic of the Clone Wars era that wasn't successful enough to see wide production even there . And in this game it feels like that. So...so far, a win. Why is it such a problem, though? Well, because it's also kind of expensive . It certainly has a sense of wave-1 pricing - it was costed out as the 'big/heavy' on the table. And it was sort of like that, once. But to the extent it ever was - it's very far from that, now, and the game has changed a lot. The pricing it has really doesn't reflect how weak it is now - notably in regards speed and number/variety of defense tokens.

But, again, I don't think the solution here is to change the nature of the ship via upgrades. It feels about right for where it should sit given lore.

It's just... way overpriced.

If you were to simply reduce the price to reflect its weaker position - notably it's slower speed (but that's a defining characteristic of the thing...except for the VSD-II, anyway, which supposedly was refit specifically to have faster engines, so...yeah).

So...I dunno, maybe just a 3-pt reduction on the VSD-II, and also give it a speed-3 column (0-0-1 chart), and an 8-pt reduction on the VSD-I leaving it as-is?

That lets them keep their flavor as 'obsolete designs', but prices them appropriate to their effectiveness in the current game.

On ‎9‎/‎18‎/‎2018 at 1:09 AM, TallGiraffe said:

I can't wait for the VSD-1 Nerfs guys.

I dunno man - if you manage to get in range 1, front arc, of a VSD-I?

That's...that's kind of hard to do.

4 minutes ago, xanderf said:

Thing is, though, I kind of feel like this moves the point of the VSD.

I mean, as noted, the VSD so far really feels like a strictly-inferior ISD - its role easily and obviously replaced by the ISD in the Imperial lineup.

Which...I mean, that's right, yes? That's what they are SUPPOSED to have been? 

So I don't think the answer is to look for an upgrade to make them 'competitive' again - especially given once getting well into the upgrades, a VSD is getting priced like an ISD, and at which point...?why?

The way I understand VSDs now, they're offensively inflated in proportion to how well they can defend. Dcaps is unprecedented 6 dice at long range, External racks adds a lot of close range firepower like Giraffe shows us. If they can land these hits in combination with all of their offensive slots, they're fantastic.

But this is not a reliable role since they can be avoided easily by faster ships or destroyed as easily as small ships by large craft designed to kill them.

I gather that's fine for a lot of people, since like Raiders the trade-off is getting what you can out of the ship before it's destroyed. I on the other hand want them to behave more like generalist ISDs, including the tank and flank-assault roles. Or being the almost-bigger bruiser that I'm allowed to field 3 of instead of 2. But the way I see it those other area problems of speed and protection bring down my expectations for what the VSD can accomplish, and I'm forever feeling that something is missing from the VSD for it to compete. All it takes is that one heavy deployed in just the right spot to engage my VSDs one at a time- I'm not confident the focused VSD can hold out long enough for his wingmate to wheel in, even if I see the ISD coming.

VSDs aren't a 1:1 replacement for ISDs with a cost deduction. They're an offensively biased ship with a defensive movement profile and hardly any options for when they meet a direct battery-based ship counter. I think that's a problem and why we don't see these fielded more often competitively. I'd rather they be ISDs in miniature than just another specialist medium pretending to be a generalist.

2 minutes ago, Norsehound said:

The way I understand VSDs now, they're offensively inflated in proportion to how well they can defend. Dcaps is unprecedented 6 dice at long range, External racks adds a lot of close range firepower like Giraffe shows us. If they can land these hits in combination with all of their offensive slots, they're fantastic.

A dcaps VSD-II is 88 pts. An ER VSD-I is 76 pts.

Aside from one turn when they can pull off either stunt, are those ships anywhere near worth those points, right now?

I mean, sure, I agree - for those who want to use them like a one-shot glass cannon or something, those upgrades help and maybe they are worth their points in that specific role. I'm unconvinced, and major tournament results appear to show the same. But, sure, maybe they are close to being viable in that one-shot role with those one-shot upgrades, with just a few more tweaks (IE., more upgrades).

I'm with you, though, in that I don't feel that is the right role for the VSD. It doesn't feel thematic/lore-fitting.

Of course, that those upgrades exist means you probably have to come up with the more-lore-fitting-VSD-patch in a way that prevents them from being used. (And I still maintain the right solution is to reduce their cost so you CAN take more of them - fit out for some other role) Perhaps an "Original Clone Wars Refit" upgrade, Victory-class only, that takes up an ordnance and turbolaser slot and costs -8 pts. Or "Victory Upgrade Project" upgrade, Victory-class only, that takes up an Offensive Retrofit slot and Ion Cannon slot, adding a 0-0-1 speed-3 chart and costing -3 pts. (Just using my price guesses from the earlier post - just a SWAG, adjust to taste)

Let's say we add in a speed 3 option to VSDs. Why do you take ISDs then? If, as was stated, they become cheaper versions of those and I can spam them under Vader and not lose a bunch of points when one dies because I have like 4 more.... Again, why take ISDs?

Is there a way we can take this discussion somewhere more productive, like "hey guys, how do people get the best use out of the VSD as it is? I can see it's an artillery piece in the back that supports your other ships, but do people have tips/tricks on making it work somewhat?"

I'll acknowledge the VSD is not necessarily top tier. But as a man who's been running sub-par since May.... It's doable and you can win games with sub-par. So, let's get productive with this discussion! (Waves at @MandalorianMoose and Garbage Fleet)

Just now, geek19 said:

Let's say we add in a speed 3 option to VSDs. Why do you take ISDs then? If, as was stated, they become cheaper versions of those and I can spam them under Vader and not lose a bunch of points when one dies because I have like 4 more.... Again, why take ISDs?

Is there a way we can take this discussion somewhere more productive, like "hey guys, how do people get the best use out of the VSD as it is? I can see it's an artillery piece in the back that supports your other ships, but do people have tips/tricks on making it work somewhat?"

I'll acknowledge the VSD is not necessarily top tier. But as a man who's been running sub-par since May.... It's doable and you can win games with sub-par. So, let's get productive with this discussion! (Waves at @MandalorianMoose and Garbage Fleet)

The suggestion I was making to give them speed 3 makes it pretty limited - a 0-0-1 chart provides the same sort of issue the Arquitens has. IE., unless you spam nav, where you start and end any following turn is really obvious . And doing it as an upgrade that eats into other valuable slots (here dcaps and the ion slot - denying them LS or SW7 that the ISD can easily take - although ****, why not add the turbolaser slot as well if we want to be REALLY thorough?) is also something the ISD doesn't have to deal with.

Nevermind that Vader pairs less well with VSDs vs ISDs, anyway - an ISD has 4 defense tokens to spend for Vader to reroll with, and until the shields are down the 'contain' is basically free to spend at will. The VSD has no 'free' defense tokens - it only has the 3, and it needs them all given its weaker shields and hull.

43 minutes ago, xanderf said:

Perhaps an "Original Clone Wars Refit" upgrade, Victory-class only, that takes up an ordnance and turbolaser slot and costs -8 pts. Or "Victory Upgrade Project" upgrade, Victory-class only, that takes up an Offensive Retrofit slot and Ion Cannon slot, adding a 0-0-1 speed-3 chart and costing -3 pts. (Just using my price guesses from the earlier post - just a SWAG, adjust to taste)

Don’t touch my ion slot. Drop the cost of VSDs by 10 points or so, you’ll all go back to ISDs convinced it’s “fixed,” and I’ll start flying 4 VSD-2s instead of three. ?

I’m torn, each ship should have a limitation or high cost to limit quantity. So I don’t think fixing the VSD is the way to go.

That said, I think the cost reduction is a valid move. The II is a bit expensive in particular.

An overhaul might not be in the cards until an Armada 2.0 comes out. Maybe FFG could do for the VSD what they did for the ISD giving it additional variants, but this seems unlikely.

To answer the OP's question though, I believe the VSD does need help to reach par. FFG has effectively admitted to this with it's "fixes" over the release of several waves. I believe there is still ground to make up, so more of these fixes could be on the horizon. I think the ship deserves it. And the "overhaul" will likely come via the same medium they've come before. Dcaps, Jerry etc.

Quite honestly I think the best thing for the ship would be an app like x-wing 2.0 has, with points cost subject to adjustment resulting in the VSD being made less costly. Anymore "fixes" like the ones we've already seen and you run into the problem of over dressing your VSD mini christmas tree.

I haven't flown a VSD in over a year, but this thread makes me want to try a VSD with bombers (and other stuff of course) and see if I could make it work.

1 hour ago, geek19 said:

Let's say we add in a speed 3 option to VSDs. Why do you take ISDs then? If, as was stated, they become cheaper versions of those and I can spam them under Vader and not lose a bunch of points when one dies because I have like 4 more.... Again, why take ISDs?

Is there a way we can take this discussion somewhere more productive, like "hey guys, how do people get the best use out of the VSD as it is? I can see it's an artillery piece in the back that supports your other ships, but do people have tips/tricks on making it work somewhat?"

I'll acknowledge the VSD is not necessarily top tier. But as a man who's been running sub-par since May.... It's doable and you can win games with sub-par. So, let's get productive with this discussion! (Waves at @MandalorianMoose and Garbage Fleet)

Because ISDs are still rocking 11 hull, an additional shield, push more fighters, have 2 AA, and since you didn't mention anything about protection: a defensive retro for the all-essential ECM. This allows you to put an officer of you choice in that slot instead of mandating tua on the risk you're flying against big ships.

Speed 3 VSDs mean the VSD-II can be a better flanker by getting that nav on the turn they need the sharp turn and concentrate fire as they cruise in for the kill. It also means it can commit the blue row of dice quicker against speed 0 munchkins, and it can actually run down fleeing ships. VSD-Is are suddenly formidable because with one nav token they can jump to speed 3 and be a credible threat of projecting 8 dice with ordnance experts and have the hull to stick around (Where Demo needs to boom-and-zoom to live).

Speed 3 means it's less likely you'll have games where your VSDs never shoot and they're looking at a cheaper ship flinging 6 dice when in optimum range.

But! If you don't like them you can still shoot them, because XI7s and acc say the only choice they have in defending themselves is which 1 point they'll shed to a side arc- while they eat a full battery from a heavy. Yay!

I'd like to see some discussion on how to use VSDs in ways other than second-player objective protection ships, or something other than D-Cap artillerymen "From the Back", and likely deployed close to their targets.

Tell me how I can use multiple VSDs in an assault role against a camping speed 0 second player Rieekan aces ball pumped with Yavaris Norra B-Wings, or an Ackbar conga line with some fighters and flotillas to pad out deployment. Let me know how to face an Avenger ISD-I with Sloane supporting Demolisher and a pack of aces to pad out deployment, while you're using more than one VSD.

My sense tells me these are among the match-ups are the worst possible combinations VSDs are going to be asked to face, but you must, if you're preparing to face anything other than a staged game.

@Norsehound What if these ships are never supposed to win that?

Is that an acceptable answer?

4 minutes ago, TheCallum said:

@Norsehound What if these ships are never supposed to win that?

Is that an acceptable answer?

This. Multiple VSDs have problems if youre just depending on VSDs to do your lifting. You CAN make Cracken with like 7 Hammerheads work, but it has bad matchups just like a lot of skew builds. And multiple VSDs is a skew build.

As for eating Rieekan Aces or Sloane Avenger, Ruthless Strategists seems to be great at mulching those, as does Kallus. If you're first player, either pick the least harmful objective (you mentioned Solar Corona before) and don't play his game or also camp at speed zero and take a 5-6 loss.

With regards to Ackbar, he's been killing VSDs since wave 2. Don't be in his side arcs, or if he's out activating you, get more activations. But either stop taking multiple VSDs or start using the 7th Fleet title. The minute you get stuck in a "I have to do X with this ship" mindset, you're in trouble in mind.

20 minutes ago, TheCallum said:

@Norsehound What if these ships are never supposed to win that?

Is that an acceptable answer?

What I and I think other VSD advocates want is the VSD to have some ability to win those engagements.

Otherwise, that's the exact reason nobody takes them in tournaments, why they always disappoint, and why you should never take them outside of staged games (or you must accept the consequences if you do take them). Since they can't answer those meta-common situations, don't invest the points in a high risk that you're going to lose many of your engagements against random lists. Better take ISDs, which have an answer for all of those situations.

...while also having the desired flexibility. You can plop Tua on a VSD to give it the ISD's always-brace flexibility with an ECM they take for granted. But it's not very satisfying for a player like me who, looking at a VSD, knows he can't make his VSDs as flexible as ISDs because they have grating problems.

I don't want it to be that way. I want to configure my VSDs in such a way that, with decent fighter escorts, I can take on any number of ships with a good chance of winning. I want the freedom to build my VSDs how I want, like I can with ISDs, without some meta-common build that utterly trashes them. That is not the case now.

14 minutes ago, geek19 said:

This. Multiple VSDs have problems if youre just depending on VSDs to do your lifting. You CAN make Cracken with like 7 Hammerheads work, but it has bad matchups just like a lot of skew builds. And multiple VSDs is a skew build.

As for eating Rieekan Aces or Sloane Avenger, Ruthless Strategists seems to be great at mulching those, as does Kallus. If you're first player, either pick the least harmful objective (you mentioned Solar Corona before) and don't play his game or also camp at speed zero and take a 5-6 loss.

With regards to Ackbar, he's been killing VSDs since wave 2. Don't be in his side arcs, or if he's out activating you, get more activations. But either stop taking multiple VSDs or start using the 7th Fleet title. The minute you get stuck in a "I have to do X with this ship" mindset, you're in trouble in mind.

Bad matchups do happen, but that's not really what I'm complaining about with regard to VSDs. I want a ship that can fight effectively against larger opponents and have a decent chance of pulling ahead.

Once I had a Dodonna AFMK2 engage in a close range broadside for 3 turns with an Ackbar Assault Cruiser, both with Advanced Gunnery. I actually won, and it felt amazing especially after all the **** that my opponent was saying about the MK2.

I haven't had or heard of anyone having that kind of experience with VSDs. I am asking to hear about VSD success stories, because I really like the ship and want to play with it more.

I ran a Thrawn 3 VSD list. It did ok but it’s a hard sell. It’s not forgiving of mistakes and it still suffers from the expense issues.