I keep trying to fit a Victory in a list for a tournament I want to go to, but it's extremely difficult to answer the question "why isn't this an ISD?"

When I try to make it a companion to an ISD, it feels like an Arquitens or Demolisher would be better. Am I the only one who has this problem?

The motivation for me to use it competitively is because I painted a Victory (I have 3) in the style of Crimson Command.

If they had support slot, they would be very good. I like how versatile they are. I think their viability is down to meta, and on the other hand, mobility is key in this game where VSD is one of the worst (if not worst).

The only justification I have for one is if going to use one of the titles. Even still, it's so slow and not agile that I ask myself the same question, "why not an ISD?" Even with Jerry, it's a struggle to justify a VSD over ISD, or just to find a good place for it. Corrupter/Chiraneau can do fun things together, but with new relay, you're still limited by the space-truck that is a VSD.

Dominator + H9 is auto-hit flak, so that's fun sometimes, but again, the VSD isn't too hard to get away from.

I am in the same boat as you, trying to figure out a way to get the dust off my VSDs.

No. Welllllll... maybe the VSD-1. Even with the existence of the Cymoon, the 2 is still a great artillery piece if you build it right (Dcaps, QBTs/DTTs, GTs, optional HIEs.) I've run three a few times and it's always worked. 105 degree front arcs make a lot of overlapping pain zones.

Edit: Oh, and Blockade Run is amazing. It looks so innocent until they pick it and have nowhere to go.

Dominator was something I was building around with an Interdoctor to repair the damage, but then I realized that I had something that costed far more than a decked out ISDII.

Ive been able to make VSD1s work... but in a weird, unconventional way.

My fleet is 2 VSD1s with ACMs, 2 Arquitens Lights with your dice manipulaion of choice, and Demo with ACMs. I like to run Motti or Tarkin... depends on the day.

Objectives:

- Firelanes: this is an easy explination, roll slow, circle objectives, get points.

- Blue: whatever you feel like.

- Red: Blockade Run, turn their lack of manuverability to an advantage.

Just now, Piratical Moustache said:

Dominator was something I was building around with an Interdoctor to repair the damage, but then I realized that I had something that costed far more than a decked out ISDII.

Yeah, the main strength of a VSD is you can be done upgrading for less than a naked ISD-1. That makes them something more fragile, less positionally forgiving, more spammable, and with better area control. It’s a trade off to be sure, and it wouldn’t nuke down triple ISD in a fight, but it’s better against smaller prey or a single large in my (admittedly limited) experience.

2 minutes ago, Ling27 said:

Ive been able to make VSD1s work... but in a weird, unconventional way.

My fleet is 2 VSD1s with ACMs, 2 Arquitens Lights with your dice manipulaion of choice, and Demo with ACMs. I like to run Motti or Tarkin... depends on the day.

Objectives:

- Firelanes: this is an easy explination, roll slow, circle objectives, get points.

- Blue: whatever you feel like.

- Red: Blockade Run, turn their lack of manuverability to an advantage.

Blockade Run is definitely a good option in a 2 VSD list. Mind if I ask for the justification of Tarkin over Thrawn? Also, how do you load out your Arquitens? Slaved Turrets + Intel?

7 minutes ago, Mog1255 said:

Blockade Run is definitely a good option in a 2 VSD list. Mind if I ask for the justification of Tarkin over Thrawn? Also, how do you load out your Arquitens? Slaved Turrets + Intel?

I own Tarkin, is one of the major things there. I havent had the chance to buy a Chimera yet, as I only have so much spending money a month, between Armada, 40k stuff, and video games. I do like Tarkin's ability to pump out tokens though, as the tokens can work rather well. I know the first two turns there likely wont be combat, so I can throw a nav, then a CF token on each ship to prepare. After that I can alternate between Engineering and Firing, toward the end I can throw on some Navs if needed, or stick to chucking everyone some engineering.

My, personal, ALCs run Enhanced Armament. My deployment of them varies based on enemy deployment, I typically deploy the VICs so their red dice and cover the whole battle line with some over lap. Because BR has been chosen, every, single, time... ive played in my SCs, Ive gotten used to it. Keeping the VSD1s so their black dice can both hit a small ship in the middle helps.

The ALCs then deploy on the flanks, either both on one, or on the far outsides, and can fire inward or turn and slash across infront of the VSDs and fire at any ships who get close to them and any ships that hang back.

The DEMO follows behind and mops up, before speeding up and getting destroyed, or into the objective zone.

Lets be honest here....

Comparison (262/400)
===================
Cymoon 1 Refit (112 + 22)
+ Gunnery Team (7)
+ Spinal Armament (9)
+ XI7 Turbolasers (6)
Victory II-class Star Destroyer (85 + 43)
+ Minister Tua (2)
+ Gunnery Team (7)
+ Disposable Capacitors (3)
+ SW-7 Ion Batteries (5)
+ XI7 Turbolasers (6)
+ Dominator (12)
+ Redundant Shields (8)

Tooled out and complete Vic vs Incomplete cymoon.

Vic also needs no rr's here past a CF token. Cymoon will easily whiff.

The point difference is a matter of a few upgrades. Commanders also matter, but if you try hard, I think you can make a fleet around vics.

Then again....

Comparison (261/400)
===================
Imperial I-class Star Destroyer (110 + 23)
+ Minister Tua (2)
+ Gunnery Team (7)
+ Leading Shots (4)
+ Quad Battery Turrets (5)
+ Reinforced Blast Doors (5)
Victory II-class Star Destroyer (85 + 43)
+ Minister Tua (2)
+ Gunnery Team (7)
+ Disposable Capacitors (3)
+ SW-7 Ion Batteries (5)
+ XI7 Turbolasers (6)
+ Dominator (12)
+ Redundant Shields (8)

Well...

VSD has been fixed three times.

1 - Tua allow them to have Defensive Retrofit.

2 - Disposable Capacitors allow them to pack a punch at long distance.

3 - Jerjerrod allow them to make sharp turn.

VSD 2 are now ... okish, with ONE build. Yet, I have trouble finding a way to use the VSD 1.

Now, we need to look at a fact:

FFG fixes cards / ships that are too powerful with erratas.

FFG fixes ships that are not powerful enough by releasing upgrades cards that "fixes" them. The ONLY example of this being different is the Chimera expansion, with new variant for the ISD, that are, effectively fixes.

I made a suggestion , back when I joined the forum, on how to introduce fixes & content. I would love FFG to put out a small boxes with upgrade cards and ship cards, with variants for VSD, Assault Frigates and other similar ships.

9 minutes ago, Coranhann said:

VSD 2 are now ... okish, with ONE build. Yet, I have trouble finding a way to use the VSD 1.

As strange as it sounds, I feel VSD1 to be more usable out of the two, simply because of the cost. VSD1 with Vader and ER is a lot of area denial for 79 points.

Indeed, good firepower with Vador.

You still suffer from the low speed and incapacity to turn. To me, that's the ship main issue. Having just 1 tick of yaw was thematic at release, but in a game where positioning is so important, having top speed 2 and only 1 tick of yaw at speed 2, means you'll never get where you need to be, except with Jerjerrod.

If your opponent manage to manoeuver around your VSD 1, it's 80pts down the drain for little effect. But you could do a big ISD with Vador, and use 7th Fleet titles to maximise the VSD support role.

7 minutes ago, Coranhann said:

Well...

VSD has been fixed three times.

1 - Tua allow them to have Defensive Retrofit.

2 - Disposable Capacitors allow them to pack a punch at long distance.

3 - Jerjerrod allow them to make sharp turn.

VSD 2 are now ... okish, with ONE build. Yet, I have trouble finding a way to use the VSD 1.

Now, we need to look at a fact:

FFG fixes cards / ships that are too powerful with erratas.

FFG fixes ships that are not powerful enough by releasing upgrades cards that "fixes" them. The ONLY example of this being different is the Chimera expansion, with new variant for the ISD, that are, effectively fixes.

I made a suggestion , back when I joined the forum, on how to introduce fixes & content. I would love FFG to put out a small boxes with upgrade cards and ship cards, with variants for VSD, Assault Frigates and other similar ships.

I wish that the Victory I and II were given new stats directly, with everything re-evaluated from the points cost to the movement chart.

Is this too much to ask for?

Victory I-Class Star Destroyer (73 points)
- Dominator ( 12 points)
- Minister Tua ( 2 points)
- Ordnance Experts ( 4 points)
- Electronic Countermeasures ( 7 points)
- XX-9 Turbolasers ( 5 points)
- External Racks ( 3 points)
= 106 total ship cost

try using this as the anvil with your ISD of choice as the hammer. Skreed or Vader helps.

Absolutely glorious if you can pull off a double arc.

5 hours ago, Mog1255 said:

The only justification I have for one is if going to use one of the titles. Even still, it's so slow and not agile that I ask myself the same question, "why not an ISD?" Even with Jerry, it's a struggle to justify a VSD over ISD, or just to find a good place for it. Corrupter/Chiraneau can do fun things together, but with new relay, you're still limited by the space-truck that is a VSD.

Dominator + H9 is auto-hit flak, so that's fun sometimes, but again, the VSD isn't too hard to get away from.

I am in the same boat as you, trying to figure out a way to get the dust off my VSDs.

I think you meant Warlord+H9. If that combo was 4 point cheaper, it would be a really good title. Especially with kallus-ordenance pods. Up to 6 damage before defense tokens in a single activation against squads. Nothing can really match this with the same level of reliability.

I have also been using tractor beams on my VSDs. Someone might have 1 nav token, but they dont have 2. Its fun to slow people down so they end up within close range to get pounded on by ACMs.

2 hours ago, Coldhands said:

I think you meant Warlord+H9. If that combo was 4 point cheaper, it would be a really good title. Especially with kallus-ordenance pods. Up to 6 damage before defense tokens in a single activation against squads. Nothing can really match this with the same level of reliability.

I did. Oops.

10 hours ago, Piratical Moustache said:

I keep trying to fit a Victory in a list for a tournament I want to go to, but it's extremely difficult to answer the question "why isn't this an ISD?"

You're going to have players insisting there's nothing wrong with the VSD over your stated objections. I haven't been completely satisfied with the VSD's performance for a long time, chiefly because in order to be playable this ship requires specific upgrades in order to approach competitiveness. Whenever I point this out with my stated reasons, I'm told I dont understand the ship. I have six of them and I feel more reliable with other lists leaning on other ships.

The ship is helpless when hit by a large battery of damage thrown by an XI7 with a single accuracy. This is undeniable .
This is of course when the ship is not carrying the Mandated upgrades. See below.

Since large ships with that exact setup are a very good combination capable of destroying lots of things, one has to wonder why you would field a ship so vulnerable to such a popular configuration.

The most efficient response, at least in my view, is to invest the points in a VSD into something else. That's what all the successful lists do- when's the last time you saw a VSD ranking in a large tournament? Apart from that one time where a VSD was present specifically to counter then-popular Raddus bombs, and then disappeared the next day as Rieekan beat out that list.

Now,

Once you start adding in those extra upgrades you can get the use you're seeking. By investing about as many points into the VSD to bring it up to ISD levels of cost, you can get a little more flexibility with your shot at the expense of, well, not taking a more efficient platform that is better at everything than a VSD.

Tua and Brunsen are the two essential defensive cards the VSD needs to function, favoring the former over the latter. Access to Brace through Electronic Countermeasures means you have the same protection ability most ISDs take for granted. You just need to give up your officer slot, and any ability to construct combinations with something like Taskmaster Grint or Intelligence Officers. Oh, and Tua only goes on one VSD. Brunsen is there if you want to run a second VSD in combination (possibly with 7th fleet) but Tua is already allocated. Just be sure to fly close to rocks with Brunsen's Destroyer.

Without either of these cards to buff your VSD's defenses, you're vulnerable to any and every heavy out there configured to attack other heavies and lighter ships. If ISDs don't step into the field without ECMs on, neither should you. Especially since you have fewer hull, and it's going to make a difference when you start eating APTs and similar.

Disposable Capacitors on the VSD-II is a combination unique because its the only instance in the game I'm aware of you can hammer someone at long range with 6 dice (up to 8 if you have a increase dice upgrade, like spinal armament, and concentrate fire). Not even a Cymoon can do this on its own, and for one turn you have the best gunship possible in the game. Take Gunnery teams to do this more than once, season with an Ion cannon of your choice, and adjust to taste with Spinals/XI7s/Quad Battery Turrets in your turbolaser slot. This with Tua is a very good combination to run and gives you something ISDs can't do- a powerful opening alpha strike. I'd suggest flying Rhymer with you to get that accuracy to make it truly powerful.

I can't think of an ideal VSD-I combination, but I don't think you could go wrong with Expendable Racks to augment their already grisly close-range firepower. Why this isn't as impressive as it should be is because the VSD is too slow, and FFG refused to do anything about it. Jerjerrod is the best help for these guys because with their plodding speed, FFG decided the best help for them is to turn in a tighter circle. In my judgement the best use for this combo is yoked to bidding for second player and having objectives that defend a small area. This won't help you against, say, a Rieekan aces ball with a deeper bid than you. If your opponent is coming to you, at least you could consider hard-crashing a flank with five black dice, assuming your more nimble opponents don't beat you to it.

Quote

When I try to make it a companion to an ISD, it feels like an Arquitens or Demolisher would be better. Am I the only one who has this problem?

You're not wrong, ARQs kite fantastically for their cost and Demolisher is just brutal on the assault while your ISD can tank for it. QFs command more fighters. For what you want your VSD to do, there's always something that can do it better .

I'd try the VSD-II DCaps combination to accompany the ISD to try crushing enemy ships in between you- the VSD is good area denial if nothing else. It's defense and speed that will always let you down.

9 hours ago, Coldhands said:

If they had support slot, they would be very good. I like how versatile they are. I think their viability is down to meta, and on the other hand, mobility is key in this game where VSD is one of the worst (if not worst).

A support slot would do so much for this ship. VSD-Is would have the Engine Techs they need to commit their black dice in an offensive capability, Fighter Coordination Teams could move 3 fighters (the maximum with a support slot for the Empire) to set up a carrier alpha strike, and Projection Experts has more shields to draw on than the INT and can actually fight without needing an ion cannon. If the VSD got a re-make like the ISD did, it would most certainly have a Support Team slot on one of the variants.

Unless FFG feels stubborn in their denial that this ship needs help and withholds effective speed 3 from the craft, ignoring the fact that every other speed 2 ship has a support team slot with it (huh, I wonder why?). They might continue to tell us the VSD has no problems with a straight face, while it remains conspicuously absent from the top tables of many tournaments.

4 hours ago, Coldhands said:

I think you meant Warlord+H9. If that combo was 4 point cheaper, it would be a really good title. Especially with kallus-ordenance pods. Up to 6 damage before defense tokens in a single activation against squads. Nothing can really match this with the same level of reliability. 

All of the VSD titles share the problems of being overcosted and under-effective, though I have heard a story about Dominator being really good that I want to try out someday. 12 points on the fragility-cost ratio of the VSD makes me nervous, though.

Putting Kallus on a VSD risks death from any Cymoon or ISD dedicated to destroying ships. By my read, against aces you can score 1 certain (H9-Warlord works for one die per attack) 2 possible, and the followup black dice (Which cannot be modified with Warlord H-9 since black die have no accuracy facing and posess blanks) for 2 more hits- capping at 4. But you can also throw Ruthless strategists on to the VSD to score lots of damage if you want to, you just need a real carrier with an abundance of fighters willing to tank the damage. Fly a swarm of YV-666s!

If we make the victory better then all that will happen is then something else will be the worse ship to choose. Then we will what that fixed everything has to have a down side.

58 minutes ago, XR8rGREAT said:

If we make the victory better then all that will happen is then something else will be the worse ship to choose. Then we will what that fixed everything has to have a down side.

This is ridiculous. It's almost like saying, "X-Wing 1.0 TIE Advanceds are supposed to be unplayable garbage after Wave 1, because that's how they were in the lore!"

"Worse" is subjective. To have a full Armada experience, FFG saddles us with two VSDs. There is no reason to take them in a list when other ships do their roles so much better. Gunships use nearly naked ISDs (or Demolisher), carriers are Quasars, even Interdictors get picked over VSDs because of their experimental retrofit slots. The VSD can do most of these things, even compete with the ISDs, but speed and protection issues means it's not flexible enough to handle the all-comers environment of the tournament scene. So, nobody uses them, because they can't rely on them for games in less-than-ideal conditions.

Which is a shame because this shouldn't be the case, and the VSD should be the awesome go-to ship for list builders who want a dependable ship to lean on. The VSD is not that ship in this 400 point universe, the ISD is, which is why this thread was created.

I believe the counter question to "why would I use a VSD when I could use an ISD,"is a much better question.

" Why do I feel like I have to take ISDs over VSDs? "

Worded in this light, we can look at what makes the ISD a better item, but also what are the downsides to taking one? For me, I use 2 VSD1s, with ACMs, OE, and Q7 Tractor Beams; each costing 90 points for a total of 180 points. If I equip a Kuat (because thats the one I would have to use for missles) with the same upgrades, 1 costs me 128pts.

So I can have, 2 activations, with 16-20 hull, with 12 total dice, and 2 tries to slow you down. I have 2 ships over 1/4th my fleet. Yes, if one goes down its a lot of points, but there is still another ship to use. Its a spread in damage and targets.

Or

1 activation, 11-14 hull, 8 total dice, and 1 try to slow you down. If my ISD goes down, then thats it, its gone. I have to rely on that ship soaking as much fire as possible, dealing as much damage as my other ships/squadrons, ect.

I like to run Tarkin, so maybe its that need for multiple ships, but I think that as the first ship, the VSD should have set the benchmark...

1 minute ago, Ling27 said:

I believe the counter question to "why would I use a VSD when I could use an ISD,"is a much better question.

" Why do I feel like I have to take ISDs over VSDs? " 

Somehow I feel the whole question is easily answered - one should take an ISD over VSD if there are enough points for that. Essentially ISD is a tough jack of all trades, but it's expensive. VSD is not that, but it can be used as area denial and is much cheaper compared to ISD (as in 40 points cheaper). So ISD + VSD list has more options open compared to 2ISD list.

4 hours ago, Norsehound said:

You're going to have players insisting there's nothing wrong with the VSD over your stated objections. I haven't been completely satisfied with the VSD's performance for a long time, chiefly because in order to be playable this ship requires specific upgrades in order to approach competitiveness. Whenever I point this out with my stated reasons, I'm told I dont understand the ship. I have six of them and I feel more reliable with other lists leaning on other ships.

The ship is helpless when hit by a large battery of damage thrown by an XI7 with a single accuracy. This is undeniable .
This is of course when the ship is not carrying the Mandated upgrades. See below.

Since large ships with that exact setup are a very good combination capable of destroying lots of things, one has to wonder why you would field a ship so vulnerable to such a popular configuration.

The most efficient response, at least in my view, is to invest the points in a VSD into something else. That's what all the successful lists do- when's the last time you saw a VSD ranking in a large tournament? Apart from that one time where a VSD was present specifically to counter then-popular Raddus bombs, and then disappeared the next day as Rieekan beat out that list.

Now,

Once you start adding in those extra upgrades you can get the use you're seeking. By investing about as many points into the VSD to bring it up to ISD levels of cost, you can get a little more flexibility with your shot at the expense of, well, not taking a more efficient platform that is better at everything than a VSD.

Tua and Brunsen are the two essential defensive cards the VSD needs to function, favoring the former over the latter. Access to Brace through Electronic Countermeasures means you have the same protection ability most ISDs take for granted. You just need to give up your officer slot, and any ability to construct combinations with something like Taskmaster Grint or Intelligence Officers. Oh, and Tua only goes on one VSD. Brunsen is there if you want to run a second VSD in combination (possibly with 7th fleet) but Tua is already allocated. Just be sure to fly close to rocks with Brunsen's Destroyer.

Without either of these cards to buff your VSD's defenses, you're vulnerable to any and every heavy out there configured to attack other heavies and lighter ships. If ISDs don't step into the field without ECMs on, neither should you. Especially since you have fewer hull, and it's going to make a difference when you start eating APTs and similar.

Disposable Capacitors on the VSD-II is a combination unique because its the only instance in the game I'm aware of you can hammer someone at long range with 6 dice (up to 8 if you have a increase dice upgrade, like spinal armament, and concentrate fire). Not even a Cymoon can do this on its own, and for one turn you have the best gunship possible in the game. Take Gunnery teams to do this more than once, season with an Ion cannon of your choice, and adjust to taste with Spinals/XI7s/Quad Battery Turrets in your turbolaser slot. This with Tua is a very good combination to run and gives you something ISDs can't do- a powerful opening alpha strike. I'd suggest flying Rhymer with you to get that accuracy to make it truly powerful.

I can't think of an ideal VSD-I combination, but I don't think you could go wrong with Expendable Racks to augment their already grisly close-range firepower. Why this isn't as impressive as it should be is because the VSD is too slow, and FFG refused to do anything about it. Jerjerrod is the best help for these guys because with their plodding speed, FFG decided the best help for them is to turn in a tighter circle. In my judgement the best use for this combo is yoked to bidding for second player and having objectives that defend a small area. This won't help you against, say, a Rieekan aces ball with a deeper bid than you. If your opponent is coming to you, at least you could consider hard-crashing a flank with five black dice, assuming your more nimble opponents don't beat you to it.

You're not wrong, ARQs kite fantastically for their cost and Demolisher is just brutal on the assault while your ISD can tank for it. QFs command more fighters. For what you want your VSD to do, there's always something that can do it better .

I'd try the VSD-II DCaps combination to accompany the ISD to try crushing enemy ships in between you- the VSD is good area denial if nothing else. It's defense and speed that will always let you down.

A support slot would do so much for this ship. VSD-Is would have the Engine Techs they need to commit their black dice in an offensive capability, Fighter Coordination Teams could move 3 fighters (the maximum with a support slot for the Empire) to set up a carrier alpha strike, and Projection Experts has more shields to draw on than the INT and can actually fight without needing an ion cannon. If the VSD got a re-make like the ISD did, it would most certainly have a Support Team slot on one of the variants.

Unless FFG feels stubborn in their denial that this ship needs help and withholds effective speed 3 from the craft, ignoring the fact that every other speed 2 ship has a support team slot with it (huh, I wonder why?). They might continue to tell us the VSD has no problems with a straight face, while it remains conspicuously absent from the top tables of many tournaments.

All of the VSD titles share the problems of being overcosted and under-effective, though I have heard a story about Dominator being really good that I want to try out someday. 12 points on the fragility-cost ratio of the VSD makes me nervous, though.

Putting Kallus on a VSD risks death from any Cymoon or ISD dedicated to destroying ships. By my read, against aces you can score 1 certain (H9-Warlord works for one die per attack) 2 possible, and the followup black dice (Which cannot be modified with Warlord H-9 since black die have no accuracy facing and posess blanks) for 2 more hits- capping at 4. But you can also throw Ruthless strategists on to the VSD to score lots of damage if you want to, you just need a real carrier with an abundance of fighters willing to tank the damage. Fly a swarm of YV-666s!

Add a red with kallus. If you dont roll a blank, its double hit. Blue is 50/50. Pods dmg is 96% + 75% to double hit again. 8d go with oe so the ship remains sort of usefull against ships too.