14 minutes ago, Piratical Moustache said:

Assuming player skill is roughly equal, would this list stand a chance against the popular tournament builds?

Most likely not. I cant speak about sqaud heavy build (I think your screen may end up not delay them long enough, this requires testing), but ship heavy builds would outactivate you and therefore should be able to outflank and will not give shots to both VSDs.

As far as 7th fleet goes, I feel that to get its points worth, one needs to utilize at least 3 7th fleet ships and to have activation advantage/parity to fix front arc positioning for incoming shots.

Stop this thread. You are not going to convince me to fly these ships at Nationals just to proof something. ?

9 minutes ago, Piratical Moustache said:

Here's an attempt to run not one but two VSDs in a list. Assuming player skill is roughly equal, would this list stand a chance against the popular tournament builds?

VSD Attempt

Looks good to me, roughly similar to a lot of the 2x VSD builds I was trying before the last run of tournaments (I used a GZ in place of the ARQ, was experimenting with trying to make a GSD-II into a better support ship). It looks good enough to me to practice with. I think the weakness in your list is fighters, but I'm gonna guess you have more practice with Phantoms than I do.

With Thrawn you can do the wonderful double-commanding needed for your VSDs to be carriers as well, a great move! You may need to practice to have the timing down on when to initiate those commands.

I'd pay special attention to your obstacle placement to control the direction your opponent is going to move into if he wants to approach your ships to kill, or the objectives to score. With this, Brunsen has plenty of things to trigger off of, and you can try to mitigate your opponent to allowing one ship in range for both of your VSDs to engage at once. I recall one of my own games of 2x VSDs against 2x Liberties with gunnery teams (this was way back when mass flotillas were still a thing for activation padding) and it didn't go well. The fewer enemy ships you can engage with the most of yours, at once, the better position you'll be in. Especially here since VSDs, while good, need to take advantage of their numbers and large batteries to blow apart one heavy ship at a time.

You'll be in trouble if you're ever in a situaiton where their one heavy can engage one of your VSDs at a time without any kind of backup. Even your kiting ARQ would be a good help to drain shields on a side/facing arc to your VSDs, wearing them down so your VSD can kill the heavy quicker.

TL:DR because I'm verbose: It looks good. Practice with it to figure out what works and what doesn't, but that's a list I'd try.

1 hour ago, Piratical Moustache said:

Think of all the ways to play CR90s

So many options!

OR

Sometimes the CR90A is Jaina's Light (usually the first one is) and sometimes the CR90B has HIEs instead of SW-7s. Sometimes they have Engine Techs with Raddus or Madine. The options are endless so long as those options are basically the same thing everyone uses with them.

1 minute ago, Snipafist said:

Sometimes the CR90A is Jaina's Light (usually the first one is) and sometimes the CR90B has HIEs instead of SW-7s.

I have to wonder about a potential for MS1 CR90B build.

@Piratical Moustache

My point was the inherent irony between “inflexible” and “designed to do multiple jobs”. That’s all ?

1 hour ago, Norsehound said:

yoked  w  ith mandated speed 2 and no natural defensive retrofit option. Other carriers hit harder, command more craft, and/or are sturdier. Other gunships/battery ships are cheaper, hit con  sistently, and are faster...so why invest in a crunc  hy VSD that's going to lose to all the big batteries nea  rly everyone is flying around?  

Ignored my point completely.

”inflexible” is an inherent irony to something that is designed to flexibly do multiple jobs (even if it does no job really well).

13 minutes ago, Norsehound said:

I think  the weakness in your list is fighters, but I'm gonna guess  you have more practice with Phantoms than I do.

Not at all, I just wanted to try a combo of Phantoms and Advanceds I read on a blog... ?

10 minutes ago, Snipafist said:

So many options!

OR

Sometimes the CR90A is Jaina's Light (usually the first one is) and sometimes the CR90B has HIEs instead of SW-7s. Sometimes they have Engine Techs with Raddus or Madine. The options are endless so long as those options are basically the same thing everyone uses with them.

I get what you're saying, but now all I can think about is how cool a CR90 would look in black.

Can... can I plug garbage fleet again?

2 minutes ago, MandalorianMoose said:

Can... can I plug garbage fleet again?

Are you flying it in the current Vassal? ?

4 minutes ago, Drasnighta said:

Are you flying it in the current Vassal? ?

That’s a big ol’ negatory. However garbage fleet IS still undefeated while Tooks handed me two ships first loss the other day (albeit it happened after a “I wonder what would happen if my ISD charged the yavaris ball”)

- spoiler alert, the ISD died

4 minutes ago, MandalorianMoose said:

That’s a big ol’ negatory

That’s a shame. Pretty sure you’re one of my picks...

1 minute ago, Drasnighta said:

Ignored my point completely.

”inflexible” is an inherent irony to something that is designed to flexibly do multiple jobs (even if it does no job really well).

No, I hear you on how offensively capable the VSD is in various roles. One of the reasons I love the ship is all the potential capable out of those slots for cheaper (Ion/Turbo/Weapon Team is everything a gunship would want! Officer/Offensive Retro / Wep Team is likewise what every carrier wants as well).

I'm saying none of that matters without better speed or better protection other ships (like the ISD) take for granted.

Where's the flexibility if you Must take Tua (and so, Must give up your officer slot), Must deploy in the center of the board, Must take second player to matter, or Must run it light so you don't miss much when it dies?

Why can't the **** thing be like an ISD, just with slightly lower hull and a slightly smaller battery in exchange for being cost effective like it should? Every time, it's because:

1. it's not fast enough to run away or attack when it wants to or
2. It can't tank punishment against killer heavies long enough to be relevant for more than one or two turns when the fighting stats.

In that case, sadly, why invest the points when I can buy ships that last longer or are cheaper and better at their jobs? Not every game is going to be against non-Norra/Yavaris fighter balls or lists laden with light ships are charging at you (ideal situations where the VSD does well). No, to do well you need to have a plan against Cymoon superlasers, or Raddus bombs coming out of a hammerhead and two flotillas at speed 3 from opposite ends of the board.

I guess what it comes down to, on the matter of flexibility, is this: What options does the VSD have in the worst possible match-ups it will face? I feel it doesn't have any , and there are a lot of bad situations that it can face. With the ship being as expensive as it is, as well, it also eats into choosing other ships to cover for its deficiencies.

40 minutes ago, Snipafist said:

So many options!
...

Sometimes the CR90A is Jaina's Light (usually the first one is) and sometimes the CR90B has HIEs instead of SW-7s. Sometimes they have Engine Techs with Raddus or Madine. The options are endless so long as those options are basically the same thing everyone uses with them.

One of the areas the CR-90's variants beat out the VSDs is that they aren't expensive. You can afford to drop either of those CR-90s in a list that also does other things- Rebels have the points to cover up the deficiencies of their other ships ok. They're also fast enough to be anywhere they want to be and still do what they need to. They can't magically make fighters go away while/in place of their battery attack work, but that's not what you expect out of them.

VSDs are a commitment when you're dropping one, and you need the extra ships to make up for its deficiencies. Deployed out of position? You need other ships to be where the VSD isn't while your opponent is running away from it. Problems getting focus-fired? you need rodeo clown ships to draw attention from the VSD (like ultra-scary Demolisher or some RDR kitted out with Expendable Racks and an Intel Officer).

Compare this to an ISD (the point of the thread) which protects itself better and can get itself into/out of trouble easily. CR-90s answer both problems by either being expendable or running away.

21 minutes ago, Norsehound said:

Where's the flexibility if you Must take Tua (and so, Must give up your officer slot), Must deploy in the center of the board, Must take second player to matter, or Must run it light so you don't miss much when it dies?

None of those are musts. You say you die to accuracies and xi7s? Don't sail into Ackbar range. Why MUST you deploy in the center of the board instead of in a corner as an artillery piece? Why MUST you take second player if you have other first player ships? Why MUST you run it light if it kills more ships on the way out or provides the ability to kill more?

21 minutes ago, Norsehound said:

Why can't the **** thing be like an ISD, just with slightly lower hull and a slightly smaller battery in exchange for being cost effective like it should? Every time, it's because:

1. it's not fast enough to run away or attack when it wants to or
2. It can't tank punishment against killer heavies long enough to be relevant for more than one or two turns when the fighting stats.

So you're using your other ships to beat UP those heavies or carriers right? You're not just sailing ships into death, conga line style right?

21 minutes ago, Norsehound said:

In that case, sadly, why invest the points when I can buy ships that last longer or are cheaper and better at their jobs? Not every game is going to be against non-Norra/Yavaris fighter balls or lists laden with light ships are charging at you (ideal situations where the VSD does well). No, to do well you need to have a plan against Cymoon superlasers, or Raddus bombs coming out of a hammerhead and two flotillas at speed 3 from opposite ends of the board.

Cymoons/Raddus/squadrons: so, you're taking objectives that let you fight them right? Or one's that help you if you do face them, right?

You can't prep for everything, so you're prepping for the fleets you either expect to face or know you need a good answer to, right? That's why I'm running 2 dust cloud objectives with Leia, because I need Cymoon protection.

21 minutes ago, Norsehound said:

I guess what it comes down to, on the matter of flexibility, is this: What options does the VSD have in the worst possible match-ups it will face? I feel it doesn't have any , and there are a lot of bad situations that it can face. With the ship being as expensive as it is, as well, it also eats into choosing other ships to cover for its deficiencies.

So does the ISD. Why is THAT so expensive? I don't have enough for 5 raiders when I run the ISD, so fighters hurt me.

5 hours ago, Norsehound said:

I think the most empirical statement to the VSD's predicament is how absent it is from Tournament lists. If it were okay, like Demolisher or MC30s with a title, we'd see it more often. I don't think even the likes of Dcaps has saved it, and Tua (while she makes the ship okay) is only a unique. If only 7th fleet were cheaper/more effective!

I would argue that's due to the remarkable saturation of dual large lists, which can do a fairly good job grinding VSDs to powder. Mark my words, if MSU becomes common again, VSDs will emerge from slumber. Even if that's because I have to bring them to events myself.

11 minutes ago, The Jabbawookie said:

I would argue that's due to the remarkable saturation of dual large lists, which can do a fairly good job grinding VSDs to powder. Mark my words, if MSU becomes common again, VSDs will emerge from slumber. Even if that's because I have to bring them to events myself.

Sorry to say, but I play MSU a lot, and I'm not that challenged by VSD. They fold under amassed firepower way more easily than heavies, and are super easy to manoeuver around. Reminder: A MSU ships aims at doing 4 damage per shot. A VSD can eat 5 of these, max, taking all defense token in account. MSU have 6 to 7 activations capables of that.

MSU fears HFC list, Demolisher (and, there again, the more I play against them, the less I fear them) and Radus Bomb (and the more I play against them...). I need to get more mileage against double Cymoon, but VSD doesn't have nearly enough firepower to threaten a MSU.

Unless you mean short range MSU, which is way too dangerous to begin with . In that case, I have no experience. I played against a fleet with Yavaris + 3 Hammerhead, a CR90 and a few fighters ... These are strong against ANYONE. Cause they hit like a truck.

18 minutes ago, Coranhann said:

Sorry to say, but I play MSU a lot, and I'm not that challenged by VSD. They fold under amassed firepower way more easily than heavies, and are super easy to manoeuver around. Reminder: A MSU ships aims at doing 4 damage per shot. A VSD can eat 5 of these, max, taking all defense token in account. MSU have 6 to 7 activations capables of that.

And an ISD-I, or Cymoon, ~40 points more, takes precisely One more of those Hits... If we're talking about a lack of ECM or such...

Its not a great baseline to be taking.. I mean.. really... Taking 5 approx 4 damage shots? Awesome

Just in case: Don't read aggressivity in my writting. I'm highly interested in the VSD. I would just hate for people to go the positive way, saying "The ship is alright, there is no problem. See, there are a few builds where he can be useful to a fleet". Because most of the time, it would be suboptimal (meaning: If you have the alternative ship, your brain is telling you to use it), and because I haven't seen most of the argument to promote the VSD happening in my games (it's tough / it pack a punch).

About MSU: An ISD present the major problem of being able to tank more than 4/5 attacks. Meaning he will get between one and four attacks in the game, depending on the navigating skill of the opposing players. CR90 don't fear 4 red dice much ... once a turn. But twice a turn, and they blow up. Or at mid range, with blues, it's bye bye. ISD allow a player to jump on MSU, and take out 1/3 of the fleet, potentially for a net benefit (especially if they manage to catch the admiral). Anyway... that's not the point of this thread. I just wanted to share experience: VSD are not nearly as tough as they are made to be. Including against MSU.

46 minutes ago, Coranhann said:

Sorry to say, but I play MSU a lot, and I'm not that challenged by VSD. They fold under amassed firepower way more easily than heavies, and are super easy to manoeuver around. Reminder: A MSU ships aims at doing 4 damage per shot. A VSD can eat 5 of these, max, taking all defense token in account. MSU have 6 to 7 activations capables of that.

MSU fears HFC list, Demolisher (and, there again, the more I play against them, the less I fear them) and Radus Bomb (and the more I play against them...). I need to get more mileage against double Cymoon, but VSD doesn't have nearly enough firepower to threaten a MSU.

Unless you mean short range MSU, which is way too dangerous to begin with . In that case, I have no experience. I played against a fleet with Yavaris + 3 Hammerhead, a CR90 and a few fighters ... These are strong against ANYONE. Cause they hit like a truck.

Great, but anecdotal. We could talk all day about how good an MSU player you are (I can't know) and how good a VSD player I am (you can't know.) We could talk about what the standard really is for MSU, and how much variety exists. We could talk about whether the VSD player is taking Vader, Jerjerrod or Motti, and who the MSU player brings. Rather than analyze those, let's look at the shot count you mentioned. If you have six four damage shots on my VSD in a single round, I should lose it; that's most of your fleet, alive, in firing range. A VSD with Gunnery Team, HIEs, QBTs and Capacitors can kill a hammerhead or CR90 in 1-2 shots, barring statistically abysmal rolls. There's little excuse for not having done that. Assuming a crit, long range damage output for an HIE Vader VSD is also statistically better than a Spinal Armament Vader Cymoon. Not trying to offend, just trying to emphasize context.

14 minutes ago, The Jabbawookie said:

A VSD with Gunnery Team, HIEs, QBTs and Capacitor  s can kill a hammerhead or CR90 in 1-2 shots  , barring statistically  abysmal rolls. Assuming a crit, long range damage output for an HIE Vader VSD is also statistically better than a Spinal Armament Vader Cymoon.  

Anecdotes based on several games (10-20) ... not one time. But I agree, it's anecdotal.

Statistics are fine. But don't forget the table. On the table, if you can shoot a MSU ships, it means you are roughly going towards it. So you shoot. You kill it or not. Then you move forward. Either you go toward the rest of the MSU fleet (doesn't have to be a conga line), or try to slow down to avoid being taken by too many shots (not always possible with 3 command ships, but let's assume you have the option). You get shot at or outflank. Redemption lies in the rest of your fleet.

All that assuming you started your turn with a VSD positioned to shoot at a corvette (Hammerhead or Correlian) without having suffered shots first. VSD that are noticeably less manoeuverabe than corvettes.

VSD brings you problem. I mean : You need to find solutions. To make them work and then, in game, to avoid their weaknesses. Popular ships (a good chunck of the rebel ships, and a few imperials ones) do not behave this way. They bring opportunities. They have flaw, yes, but things your opponent can exploit. Not that you need to work against to actually make use of the ship.

It's half past 3 here. I yeld the floor. But thanks for the discussion (truly)

I think this is a better selection of Objectives for the VSDs and Jonus was added to help out the VSDs and ARQ with their shooting. I want to test it, but I don't have anyone to play against right now.

Faction: Galactic Empire
Points: 395/400
Commander: Grand Admiral Thrawn

Assault Objective: Station Assault
Defense Objective: Contested Outpost
Navigation Objective: Minefields

Victory II-Class Star Destroyer (85 points)
- 7th Fleet Star Destroyer ( 5 points)
- Captain Brunson ( 5 points)
- Gunnery Team ( 7 points)
- Disposable Capacitors ( 3 points)
- Quad Battery Turrets ( 5 points)
- Leading Shots ( 4 points)
= 114 total ship cost

[ flagship ] Victory II-Class Star Destroyer (85 points)
- Grand Admiral Thrawn ( 32 points)
- 7th Fleet Star Destroyer ( 5 points)
- Minister Tua ( 2 points)
- Gunnery Team ( 7 points)
- Disposable Capacitors ( 3 points)
- Electronic Countermeasures ( 7 points)
- Quad Battery Turrets ( 5 points)
- Leading Shots ( 4 points)
= 150 total ship cost

Arquitens-class Light Cruiser (54 points)
- Hand of Justice ( 4 points)
- Captain Needa ( 2 points)
- Turbolaser Reroute Circuits ( 7 points)
= 67 total ship cost

1 Whisper ( 20 points)
1 Zertik Strom ( 15 points)
1 Tempest Squadron ( 13 points)
1 Captain Jonus ( 16 points)
= 64 total squadron cost

6 hours ago, geek19 said:

None of those are musts. Why MUST you deploy in the center of the board instead of in a corner as an artillery piece? Why MUST you take second player if you have other first player ships? Why MUST you run it light if it kills more ships on the way out or provides the ability to kill more?

So you're using your other ships to beat UP those heavies or carriers right? You're not just sailing ships into death, conga line style right?

Cymoons/Raddus/squadrons: so, you're taking objectives that let you fight them right? Or one's that help you if you do face them, right?

You can't prep for everything, so you're prepping for the fleets you either expect to face or know you need a good answer to, right? That's why I'm running 2 dust cloud objectives with Leia, because I need Cymoon protection.

So does the ISD. Why is THAT so expensive? I don't have enough for 5 raiders when I run the ISD, so fighters hurt me.

"You say you die to accuracies and xi7s? Don't sail into Ackbar range."

No, your opponent is bringing an ISD of some form designed to kill ships as soon as possible, like a Cymoon with XI7s and H9s with Vader as a commander. He's gunning for your VSD- it's not something you can just avoid. Besides, what if Ackbar is sitting on an objective- you just concede all those points to him?

"Why MUST you deploy in the center of the board instead of in a corner as an artillery piece?"
after padding out your deployment, your VSD drops in some corner as a flanker piece. He deploys the rest of his ships in the opposite corner, then scoots the flotilla and all fighters to rejoin his formation. If you're lucky, your speed 2 VSD gets to maybe shoot something on turn 5-6 as it's chasing your opponent's ships. Voicing your complaints on the forum, other forum posters tell you, "You should have deployed your VSD in the center like you're supposed to, to make up for how slow they are, with Jerjerrod."

"Why MUST you take second player if you have other first player ships?"

As second player Rieekan decides to camp with Yavaris on his extreme end of the board for Contested outpost and drop down to speed 0, allowing a flotilla forward to contest the outpost. Under Station assault and Solar corona, he's dropped down to speed 0, waiting for you to get close to him to engage.

In another situation you manage to do it. Your ISD crushes enemies, your fighters swat your opponents, and you've managed to win. Your DCAP VSD, on a flanking maneuver, never fired once in the entire match. You're wondering if it's a more efficient use of your points, or if you should buy Demolisher instead. You also figure that would make a better distraction on top of actually getting to the battle sooner. (This actually happened with me).

"Why MUST you run it light if it kills more ships on the way out or provides the ability to kill more?"

On the approach, your over-loaded VSD runs afowl of a 2x ISD list that deploys in such a way with the flanker at speed 3 and the anvil at speed 1. You're pinched between two ISDs that annihilate you easily with XI7s, then you wonder why you put so many points and your commander on a slow moving target.

"So you're using your other ships to beat UP those heavies or carriers right? You're not just sailing ships into death, conga line style right?"

Taking two VSDs, you prepare to pinch that MC75 that Sato is driving down the middle, thinking you can crush him in between you even though he's got projection experts out of a Pelta throwing shields on the gunnery-team equipped 75. After mauling both of your VSDs on the approach, he uses his side arcs to fire upon both ships, destroying them. He squeaks out of range before your fighters can catch up to it, and your Gladiator that rounds out the list is busy attacking the MC30 on the opposite side of the board. (this actually happened to me in a tournament setting, which is part of the reason I ended up in last place that day. I thought my 2x VSDs could handle it, since one would expect two mediums to finish a heavy.)

Cymoons/Raddus/squadrons: so, you're taking objectives that let you fight them right? Or one's that help you if you do face them, right? You can't prep for everything, so you're prepping for the fleets you either expect to face or know you need a good answer to, right? That's why I'm running 2 dust cloud objectives with Leia, because I need Cymoon protection.

Your opponent fields a list designed to make points off of killing ships and ignore the objective than allowing you to score points, jamming two ISDs at you and deploying to pick one ship off at a time. Even though you have contested outpost, suddenly there are two large ships focus-firing on your VSD.

To prepare a VSD list with everything you need to face it, you have to take...well, the upgrades of Tua and Brunsen, to give the ships the best protection they can and make up where the VSD is lacking. Especially in a field dominated by meta-popular heavies that melt ships if they can. When I field VSDs I take Contested Oupost / Station Assault / Solar corona as a baseline because I need to force my opponent to come to my table so that I can bludgeon him with my slow-*** ships. If I get crazy, I try Hyperspace assault with a wild VSD-I in hopes that I can pop out and use the VSD-I's battery at close range.

Knowing that VSDs in an assault roll will likely have to crawl across enemy fire, I pick situations where my opponents have to wade through my shots. Hence, a lot of objectives to that effect, and bidding deep for second player.

"So does the ISD. Why is THAT so expensive? I don't have enough for 5 raiders when I run the ISD, so fighters hurt me."

Yet the ISD has the capacity to command more amazing anti-fighter squadrons, a natural defense slot for ECM against large batteries, has two AA, a larger battery, and has greater protection than the VSD. I have also never heard anyone ask, "Why should I take ISDs? VSDs are cheaper and do a lot of the same things."

3 hours ago, The Jabbawookie said:

I would argue that's due to the remarkable saturation of dual large lists, which can do a fairly good job grinding VSDs to powder. Mark my words, if MSU becomes common again, VSDs will emerge from slumber. Even if that's because I have to bring them to events myself.

I think you're exactly right, and large ships just emphasize the shortcomings of the VSDs. Back in Wave 1, VSDs were nigh-insurmountable because there weren't a lot of large-battery ships flying around in order to punish their shortcomings. They really have been made obsolete by the ISD, true to lore, and they've been struggling with various updates since.

Gunnery team VSDs have the power to punch out lighter ships just as easily as they did in Wave 1 days. Problem is, as you say, it's vogue to run big ships. So now you have a choice; up-gun to fight toe-to-toe with other heavies that are present in most metas, or make your VSDs in such a way that won't hurt when you lose them.

FWIW, I think VSDs are one or two upgrades away from being the fantastic ships they should be. Give them some ability to move effective speed 3 and you got your flanker, or VSD-Is can make that lethal pounce they need when they wish. Give them more protective options and they can stand toe-to-toe with heavies and actually have their discount felt in a meta game, even if their batteries are smaller and they command less fighters.

2 hours ago, Coranhann said:

VSD brings you problem. I mean : You need to find solutions. To make them work and then, in game, to avoid their weaknesses. Popular ships (a good chunck of the rebel ships, and a few imperials ones) do not behave this way. They bring opportunities. They have flaw, yes, but things your opponent can exploit. Not that you need to work against to actually make use of the ship.

This, as I've been debating. Those weaknesses I feel are speed and protection. Fix one definitively and the VSD has a way to compete.

To provide some ideas, how about this fleet:

VSD fleet

Faction: Galactic Empire
Points: 394/400

Commander: Admiral Motti

Assault Objective: Most Wanted
Defense Objective: Contested Outpost
Navigation Objective: Solar Corona

Victory I-Class Star Destroyer (73 points)
- Defense Liaison ( 3 points)
- Darth Vader ( 3 points)
- Quad Battery Turrets ( 5 points)
- External Racks ( 3 points)
= 87 total ship cost

Gladiator II-Class Star Destroyer (62 points)
- Agent Kallus ( 3 points)
- Projection Experts ( 6 points)
- External Racks ( 3 points)
= 74 total ship cost

Gozanti-class Cruisers (23 points)
- Comms Net ( 2 points)
= 25 total ship cost

Gozanti-class Cruisers (23 points)
- Comms Net ( 2 points)
= 25 total ship cost

[ flagship ] Imperial II-Class Star Destroyer (120 points)
- Admiral Motti ( 24 points)
- Chimaera ( 4 points)
- Strategic Adviser ( 4 points)
- Gunnery Team ( 7 points)
- Reinforced Blast Doors ( 5 points)
- Spinal Armament ( 9 points)
- SW-7 Ion Batteries ( 5 points)
- Entrapment Formation! ( 5 points)
= 183 total ship cost

It can even fit Demolisher in by dropping Kallus, QBT and a bid, although I'm not convinced it'll be a better option.