10 hours ago, Kdubb said:

Uhhh. This needs to be publicized more. These vids were exactly what I was looking for during the wait for 2.0.

Yeah Scott has been doing an amazing job with the Kyber Cup!

1 minute ago, Tbetts94 said:

Not really, 6/7/8 is considered a swarm easily.

6 doesn't fit the bell curve considering that 2 ships is the minimum (Yes I know VCX but it has a docked ship so it is a 2 ship list) and the most you can field is 8.

2-3 Aces

4-6 Standard Squadron

7-8 Swarm

Now there are subcategories such as 5-6 is a mini-swarm and 4 are Veterans (or Sub-ace). Still mostly semantics, but 2-8 doesn't leave an even split as 5 is the center so 6 is closer to 5 than 8 therefor not a swarm.

1 minute ago, Marinealver said:

6 doesn't fit the bell curve considering that 2 ships is the minimum (Yes I know VCX but it has a docked ship so it is a 2 ship list) and the most you can field is 8.

2-3 Aces

4-6 Standard Squadron

7-8 Swarm

Now there are subcategories such as 5-6 is a mini-swarm and 4 are Veterans (or Sub-ace). Still mostly semantics, but 2-8 doesn't leave an even split as 5 is the center so 6 is closer to 5 than 8 therefor not a swarm.

Considering during the Crack Swarm era almost all Tie Swarms were 6 Ties, Howl, Zeta, and 4 Blacks. Sometimes a mixture of a couple Omegas instead of Zeta. The question when running a Tie Swarm has always been do you run 6 or 7, 8 has never been a real option.

Mini Swarms are usually referred to it in the instance of an Ace plus mini-swarm, which would be an Ace plus 4 ships typically.

Just now, Tbetts94 said:

Considering during the Crack Swarm era almost all Tie Swarms were 6 Ties, Howl, Zeta, and 4 Blacks. Sometimes a mixture of a couple Omegas instead of Zeta. The question when running a Tie Swarm has always been do you run 6 or 7, 8 has never been a real option.

Mini Swarms are usually referred to it in the instance of an Ace plus mini-swarm, which would be an Ace plus 4 ships typically.

That was the crack mini-swarm. The crack swarm was 4 Academy Pilots and 4 Black Squadron pilots w/crackshot which was a total of 100 points. But yeah in the super-defensive MOV meta 7-8 ship swarms had little benefit as swarms lose models and in the current deathmatch mode which is all we have as the only objective it was better to use 6 ship mini-swarms.

9 minutes ago, Marinealver said:

That was the crack mini-swarm. The crack swarm was 4 Academy Pilots and 4 Black Squadron pilots w/crackshot which was a total of 100 points. But yeah in the super-defensive MOV meta 7-8 ship swarms had little benefit as swarms lose models and in the current deathmatch mode which is all we have as the only objective it was better to use 6 ship mini-swarms.

Your definition of mini-swarm and swarm is not what the majority of the X-Wing community uses, but that’s fine. Sometimes definitions differ.

1 minute ago, Tbetts94 said:

Your definition of mini-swarm and swarm is not what the majority of the X-Wing community uses, but that’s fine. Sometimes definitions differ.

and I suppose you are the majority's sole representative, just saying that 5-6 ships is a mini-swarm. True Swarms have at least 7 ships.

Now if points being on a sliding scale go down or up the entire definition of how many ships are needed to be classified as a swarm could change. TIE fighters could go up to 26 points in which the definition of swarm will have to be redefined as 5-6 ships, or if it goes down to 20 points then the swarm will be redefine as 8-10 with 6 being the median.

9 minutes ago, Marinealver said:

and I suppose you are the majority's sole representative, just saying that 5-6 ships is a mini-swarm. True Swarms have at least 7 ships.

Now if points being on a sliding scale go down or up the entire definition of how many ships are needed to be classified as a swarm could change. TIE fighters could go up to 26 points in which the definition of swarm will have to be redefined as 5-6 ships, or if it goes down to 20 points then the swarm will be redefine as 8-10 with 6 being the median.

@Brunas forget definition of an Ace. Community needs you.

3 hours ago, Tbetts94 said:

@Brunas forget definition of an Ace. I needs you to prove me right on this pointless argument over the internet.

fixed it for ya

2 hours ago, Marinealver said:

and I suppose you are the majority's sole representative, just saying that 5-6 ships is a mini-swarm. True Swarms have at least 7 ships.

Now if points being on a sliding scale go down or up the entire definition of how many ships are needed to be classified as a swarm could change. TIE fighters could go up to 26 points in which the definition of swarm will have to be redefined as 5-6 ships, or if it goes down to 20 points then the swarm will be redefine as 8-10 with 6 being the median.

I have never heard someone say 6 ships is a mini swarm, ever. Neither has my play group. 6 TIE swarms are the rage right now. 3-5 TIEs have been considered mini swarms. I am not sure where you got that info. As someone who has played swarms and mini swarms since wave 1, I will say I have some experience in that field of naming conventions.

19 minutes ago, Hujoe Bigs said:

I have never heard someone say 6 ships is a mini swarm, ever. Neither has my play group. 6 TIE swarms are the rage right now. 3-5 TIEs have been considered mini swarms. I am not sure where you got that info. As someone who has played swarms and mini swarms since wave 1, I will say I have some experience in that field of naming conventions.

A 3 ship list is a mini-swarm? Woah in that case every list is a swarm. The majority in your play group sure they can call a 5 ship list a swarm, but it is not the table top definition of swarms.

Swarm a list of cheap individual expendable units that relies on outnumbering the opposing list. Sure 5-6 ship lists will outnumber most lists (especially if it is a 2-3 ship aces meta) but it can still get outnumbered by a swarm list. For a swarm list you only have one thing, numbers and in more than what your opponent will bring (unless they are flying another swarm list). Uniform lists that are evenly upgrades are not necessarily swarms. No one called Thug Life a TLT swarm (Even if it did throw more red dice than any swarm list). So if you have average cost units that are upgraded (or cheap units that end up heavily upgraded) it isn't a swarm, you shouldn't be spending more than 28 points per ship on average with 1 or 2 ships breaking that limit as long as they don't drop the model count which will drastically increase the average cost per ship. Remeber that X-wign has a low model count so it isn't a large margin to cross into a swarm list and a list that isn't a swarm list.

Well I guess we can conclude with this topic that it is not every list a swarm list, but that every list being called a swarm list by someone on the basis that the list contains more than 2 ships.

20 minutes ago, Hujoe Bigs said:

I have never heard someone say 6 ships is a mini swarm, ever. Neither has my play group. 6 TIE swarms are the rage right now. 3-5 TIEs have been considered mini swarms. I am not sure where you got that info. As someone who has played swarms and mini swarms since wave 1, I will say I have some experience in that field of naming conventions.

Thank you!

1 minute ago, Tbetts94 said:

Thank you!

2 is not a majority, glad you found a buddy. Guess everything you say must be truth

seriously a 3 ship list a min-swarm?

3 minutes ago, Marinealver said:

A 3 ship list is a mini-swarm? Woah in that case every list is a swarm. The majority in your play group sure they can call a 5 ship list a swarm, but it is not the table top definition of swarms.

Swarm a list of cheap individual expendable units that relies on outnumbering the opposing list. Sure 5-6 ship lists will outnumber most lists (especially if it is a 2-3 ship aces meta) but it can still get outnumbered by a swarm list. For a swarm list you only have one thing, numbers and in more than what your opponent will bring (unless they are flying another swarm list). Uniform lists that are evenly upgrades are not necessarily swarms. No one called Thug Life a TLT swarm (Even if it did throw more red dice than any swarm list). So if you have average cost units that are upgraded (or cheap units that end up heavily upgraded) it isn't a swarm, you shouldn't be spending more than 28 points per ship on average with 1 or 2 ships breaking that limit as long as they don't drop the model count which will drastically increase the average cost per ship. Remeber that X-wign has a low model count so it isn't a large margin to cross into a swarm list and a list that isn't a swarm list.

Well I guess we can conclude with this topic that it is not every list a swarm list, but that every list being called a swarm list by someone on the basis that the list contains more than 2 ships.

An ace with 3 TIEs was considered a mini swarm, yes. I never said just 3 ships was, I said 3 tie fighters were. I think you are starting to get "table top" definition with "my definition" confused. 5 A-wings where very much considered a swarm as well. But it technically fell more into a mini swarm even by both of our definitions.

But FFG already talk about swarm and give example for swarm, mini swarm, here what they said :

"the default TIE swarm has been "Howlrunner" plus five or six other ships, several of which were almost certain to be Academy Pilots . Other TIE pilots, like "Backstabber" or the Black Squadron Pilot , might provide an additional tactical option, but few other aces could really integrate themselves into the core of the swarm strategy.

"Whether or not this squadron is truly still a "swarm" at just five ships may be debatable"

"This final squadron swaps out a couple of TIEs in favor of a Lambda-class shuttle, piloted by an Omicron Group Pilot and crewed by Agent Kallus and a Fleet Officer. Agent Kallus and the Engine Upgrade modification ensure that your shuttle should play an active role in the battle, especially against the ship that Agent Kallus has targeted, and the Fleet Officer allows you to boost the impact of your "mini-swarm."

Source : https://www.fantasyflightgames.com/en/news/2015/11/27/swarm-tactics/

6 hours ago, Marinealver said:

6 doesn't fit the bell curve considering that 2 ships is the minimum (Yes I know VCX but it has a docked ship so it is a 2 ship list) and the most you can field is 8.

2-3 Aces

4-6 Standard Squadron

7-8 Swarm

Now there are subcategories such as 5-6 is a mini-swarm and 4 are Veterans (or Sub-ace). Still mostly semantics, but 2-8 doesn't leave an even split as 5 is the center so 6 is closer to 5 than 8 therefor not a swarm.

Not around here - 6 would easily be considered a swarm. An ace with 3-4 cheap ships would be considered a mini-swarm. I've never heard of anyone referring to a squadron as Veterans or sub-aces, either in person or online.

We saw more anti swarm lists than swarms. Then the lists that were just well rounded won over the lists that were specifically teched against swarms.

6 TIEs, howlrunner and 5 academies, has been the very definition of a swarm since wave 1.

Its not just straight numbers, but what the ships and pilots are, how they are flown, the size of the game, what else accompanies them, etc... 4 tie fighters, flown in formation, backing up a phantom or defender, or something, would be a mini-swarm. 4 tie fighter aces being flown by themselves is really just a squad.

A swarm isn’t a hard and fast numeric break, but taking an unusual number (for the game size) of (probably mostly cheap generic) pilots of a single type of ship and flying them with the intent of winning by overloading the enemy with quantity instead of quality. Actual numbers are a factor, but not the only one.

Regardless, like I said at first, 6 tie fighters is what has defined a tie swarm since the game’s release.

16 hours ago, Marinealver said:

That was the crack mini-swarm. The crack swarm was 4 Academy Pilots and 4 Black Squadron pilots w/crackshot which was a total of 100 points. But yeah in the super-defensive MOV meta 7-8 ship swarms had little benefit as swarms lose models and in the current deathmatch mode which is all we have as the only objective it was better to use 6 ship mini-swarms.

if we're setting our top end as illegal squads that cram 8 ships in by flying at 108 points, then nothing under 12 TIEs is a true swarm!

2 hours ago, Forgottenlore said:

6 TIEs, howlrunner and 5 academies, has been the very definition of a swarm since wave 1.

and on the other end, we have a 6-TIE swarm with a 22-point bid!

does anyone even remember 1.0 points any more?

In a 9 person tournament yesterday, there were exactly zero swarms, TIE or otherwise. The closest we got was 4 Z-95's with bug zappers on them.

11 hours ago, Jike said:

Not around here - 6 would easily be considered a swarm. An ace with 3-4 cheap ships would be considered a mini-swarm. I've never heard of anyone referring to a squadron as Veterans or sub-aces, either in person or online.

Also agree with this and that @Marinealver is the minority.

4 hours ago, Kdubb said:

Also agree with this and that @Marinealver is the minority.

Cool, I guess I get to tell everyone to check their Imperial Privilege

I guess the line between swarm and non-swarm is going to be blurred. For some it is 4+ (I don't know how). For me it will always be 7-8 ships unless by the point scale we can field ore than 8 ships. Anything <7 will be a mini-swarm and I don't care what other people say (I rarely do). I can see the line being drawn at 5 so 5-8 swarm 2-4 non swarm but yeah everyone definition of a swarm is different which can be the conclusion of this thread.

Depends on your Definition of a Swarm.

We’re getting a lot of views here, but not so many anecdotes, so I guess most people either haven’t been to an event yet or haven’t seen many swarms. I was surprised at how few people brought them to our 24 person tournament, but I also didn’t see a lot of anti-swarm tech either. Almost like people are just flying what they love...

I mean in the 4 events I went to I did see a few swarms, but they were relatively rare comparatively. Actually, come to think of it, there was a huge spread of lists. While Howl, Iden, Del, swarm was a thing, and could be nasty, I also saw more Phantoms, Interceptors, and even Lambda’s from Imperials. Rebels were very X-heavy, for good reason, and Scum was lots of Boba and Moralo.

I think it’s that everyone sees all these fun pilot abilities and wants to experiment with them. And the humble TIE is the least changed ship, so people tend to want to mix in other things.

Even my dalliance with them was with two academies, Howl, Omicron Sloan Tua, and Death Trooper Scarrif Base Pilot. Hardly a swarm, but two punchy support ships with a half swarm.

Spoiler, double stressed Wedge dies when three TIE fighters get double reroll focus attacks.

Of all the things to argue over.......

Our 14 player launch event had one tie swarm. It was quick build, so no iden, but still came in 2nd or 3rd

I think the only game it lost was against 4 x-wings