TheoGrizz, I agree with your application of Jynn's ability and triggered effects, but your insurance example really is a terrible way to explain it better. Mostly because in real life, that invoice will likely show $3000 as the cost, with a $1000 deduction for the city law. So the argument with the insurance company would be that the invoice was for $3000, regardless of what the final cost charged was. The accounting in your example would result in either the opposite conclusion, or not resolve the argument at all.

Which maybe furthers the need for an official response to this. I'm not sure the RRG has a statement clearly saying at what point you check for a cost.

1 hour ago, kingbobb said:

TheoGrizz, I agree with your application of Jynn's ability and triggered effects, but your insurance example really is a terrible way to explain it better. Mostly because in real life, that invoice will likely show $3000 as the cost, with a $1000 deduction for the city law. So the argument with the insurance company would be that the invoice was for $3000, regardless of what the final cost charged was. The accounting in your example would result in either the opposite conclusion, or not resolve the argument at all.

Which maybe furthers the need for an official response to this. I'm not sure the RRG has a statement clearly saying at what point you check for a cost.

Forget the insurance company. Your parents are Calling in Favors. Regardless of whether you are a child or a full-fledged adult, whenever you're faced with a cost of at least $3,000, your parents give you $1,000 for it (only once every year). All they care about is the final amount you are being asked to pay. You also have a trust, Streetwise, and it's basically the same as the law, except because it's not a law, it's not ongoing, and you can decide when to use it for the year. Now, because Streetwise doesn't show up on the invoice, your parents don't need to know that you are going to use it, and you can still use your parents even if using your trust makes it cost you less than $3,000.

I'm just trying to explain what the word "ongoing" on means: how something that is ongoing is always there even if it affects something at a specific moment, how something that is ongoing but affects something at a specific moment is necessarily prior to something that triggers at that moment, and how something that interacts with the queue (via interrupting it) cannot be before something that exists outside of the queue.

And all I get in response is, "that doesn't make sense," in addition to more statements about basically trying to treat an ongoing ability like it interrupts the queue and should therefore happen when you want it to happen, more requests that I point to where it says it works like how I said, and more cycling back to the beginning when I say, "I can't point to where it specifically says it works like this, I can point only to how it can't work like how you're saying."

The queue is a fairly technical construct. You have to dig pretty deeply into the game mechanics to get a full understanding of how it works in every situation, and most players don't have the patience or inclination to put that effort in. Many will have enough to be dangerous when it comes time to suss out a particular situation, or make assumptions about what happens based on what they think they know.

I feel the resolution is pretty clear: Triggered effects are just that, while ongoing things are always on. Not being triggered, they don't have a particular time that they happen, or even a time when the controlling player gets to apply them. They just are always on. I think your best statement was that Jyn's ability is applied to cards even while they are in your hand, so long as you haven't already played a card. There is no point in time when the game is trying to resolve two triggers at the same time in this interaction, because Jyn's ability does not have a before or after keyword.

Well, even if you've played a yellow event that round, it still applies at all times, because it's always on. It's just that only the first yellow event can be the first yellow event, so it's the only one that gets the discount.

And I, too, feel like it's clear. The problem was people trying to argue that because discounts were all applied during the same step that meant they were applied at the same time and could be put in an order, and then not accepting "ongoing abilities are always on" as an answer. So I had to get creative. I would certainly not start explaining with where I eventually ended up.

6 hours ago, kingbobb said:

I think your best statement was that Jyn's ability is applied to cards even while they are in your hand, so long as you haven't already played a card.

Except that I don't think that's true. There's nothing in the rules that expressly states that and the entry on decreases actually implies the opposite:

"Effects which decrease something only last for the duration of the effect."

The effect being that it's cost is decreased when cost is checked during the play a card action for both jyn and calling in favors. Since calling in favors uses the trigger "before a card is played" the logical conclusion is that the checking cost step "sees" calling in favors effect as checking the cards cost while it was in hand (so..3) and jyns ability as only having an effect here and now and then applies then both fully so you get a -2 and a -1 for a -3 total.

In the case of Jyn's ability, I see it as being in effect until after (not a queue timing after, but a literal after) you have played your first yellow event. Until then, Jyn's ability is in effect. It last until you play your first yellow event.

The timing rules for playing a card actually work against your effect. Calling in Favors doesn't happen until you have already started to play the card. At which point, it's no longer in your hand, but in that limbo space cards occupy while you run through the Play a Card From Hand steps.

So breaking it down:

Action: Play a Card from Hand (Yellow Event, the first you are playing this round) (check play restrictions: If cannot be met, card cannot be played, and must stay in hand...choose another action or card to play). Jyn's ability is active during this pre-step, but has no bearing because cost is not checked here.

Step 1: Put card face up on table (limbo) . It is no longer in hand. Jyn's ability decreases the cost of this card by 1 for the duration of Jyn's ability. Cost is -1, but still has no bearing because cost is not checked here (normally)

Step 2. Pay Cost. Cost is -1 at this point (and at the prior points) due to Jyn's ability, which has been active since the beginning of this round. Calling in Favors can only trigger if the printed cost of the card is 4 or more, due to Jyn's ability.

Step 3. Resolve. Jyn's ability will now end for this round, but even if a second yellow event is somehow played as an after trigger, it won't have any impact because it would not be the first yellow event you played this round.

I am going to repeat something I said earlier.

"It's always active. If you play a red upgrade, her ability is active. If you pass, her ability is active. Even after you play a yellow event, her ability is still active for the rest of the round, it just won't do anything . For every moment of the game, from set up to Jyn being defeated (or victory without Jyn being defeated), her ability is active. It is ongoing ."

2 hours ago, kingbobb said:

Step 3. Resolve. Jyn's ability will now end for this round, but even if a second yellow event is somehow played as an after trigger, it won't have any impact because it would not be the first yellow event you played this round.

The rules do not mention anything about ongoing abilities ending for the round.

16 hours ago, ****-Drone said:

Except  that I don't think that's true. There's nothing in the rules that expressly states that and the entry on decreases actually implies the opposite:

"Effects which decrease something only last for the duration of the effect." 

Yes, the decreasing part of Jyn's ability lasts only for duration of the decrease. All this says is that the card reverts back to its original cost after you play it. The decrease is the effect of her ongoing ability, it is not her ongoing ability. I understand what you're saying as far as the decreases apply during the same part, so replace the parts of my previous response to you where I said "is decreased" with "is going to be decreased." The fact of the matter is the ongoing ability is always on.

The reason Reaping the Crystal and Padawan work together (and why K-2SO and Reaping do not work together for like a DH-17) is because Reaping the Crystal targets the card in your hand, during a point when the decrease (or increase) isn't applied.

I think I'm done, though. There is more than enough explanation, there's an example, there's an altered version of that example, and there is also a screenshot from a main judge. And there is a disclaimer explaining that FFG could very well decide that it works, and it doesn't change the fact that right now, it doesn't. People are always welcome to play however they want in a non-competitive setting.

Not trying to get the last word in, honest

But you are of course correct: Jyn's ability doesn't end, it's a constant. But the effect it has on the game becomes 0 once you play a yellow event. My phrasing was not precise, although the in-game effect for that round is the same.

5 hours ago, TheoGrizz said:

Yes, the decreasing part of Jyn's ability lasts only for duration of the decrease. All this says is that the card reverts back to its original cost after you play it. The decrease is the effect of her ongoing ability, it is not her ongoing ability.

I think I'm done, though. There is more than enough explanation, there's an example, there's an altered version of that example, and there is also a screenshot from a main judge. And there is a disclaimer explaining that FFG could very well decide that it works, and it doesn't change the fact that right now, it doesn't. People are always welcome to play however they want in a non-competitive setting.

You're making a huge leap of supposition that the effect of the cards in my hand have their costs decrease. A leap I don't think is supported by the rules. If player A is playing Jyn and player 2 is playing kylo1 and reveals a cost 1 yellow event before I've played any events, you are saying kylo will deal 0 damage? What about if I can play an event from my discard pile? Do I now have to assume that the cost of all the yellow event cards in my discard pile are cost -1?

Once you start saying that the printed value of something is meaningless because there's a remote possibility its paid for cost *might* be effected by a card not specifically affecting that zone, you are asking for trouble.

The truth is that the definition of an ongoing ability doesn't grant the ability anything special that makes it relevant when it's not relevant. It might be "on", but that just means it's not "off". It might not actually be doing anything. Furthermore, effect is defined as the result of the ability. Jyns ability can only have its result as the first yellow event is played. Before that, it's just a *possibility*.

Example: say a character had the ability: "the first card you play each round becomes the color of your choice" are you saying that I now have a hand with each card being whatever color I want it to be? Or that they are now all colors? I don't know which card i'm gonna play is the first one, how does the character?

Very interesting read. I would have bet dollars to donuts that they were simultaneous. But TheoGrizz's explaination of the nuance between Jyn's effect taking place at Step 4,"D etermine the cost (or costs, if multiple costs are required). If the cost(s) cannot be paid (taking all modifiers into account), the action is illegal," and the Calling in Favors at Step 5, " Apply modifiers to the cost(s). Replacing an upgrade and “before you play” abilities may be triggered at this time," makes a lot of sense.

1 hour ago, ****-Drone said:

You're making a huge leap of supposition that the effect of the cards in my hand have their costs decrease  .

What I said on the first page of the comments was not the clearest way to say what I meant. That's why in my recent comment I said to replace "is decreased" with "is going to be decreased." The decreases all apply during step 5, after which the cost reverts back, which is what the definition of decreases is addressing. It's saying that if you reduce the cost of something, it reverts back to its printed cost afterwards. It is not suggesting in any way that ongoing abilities are "off" at any point during the game.

What I meant was clearer in a later post when I said that there is a difference between when an ongoing ability applies and when it matters. Her ability is always applying, it just doesn't matter unless the card you are playing is the first yellow event you're playing in the round.

Everything else you said had to do with moments that you weren't playing the card. I've never said that the discount affected cards in your hand when you weren't playing a card. Her ability is always on, the discount affects a card if it's the first yellow event and you are playing it .

16 hours ago, ****-Drone said:

You're making a huge leap of supposition that the effect of the cards in my hand have their costs decrease. A leap I don't think is supported by the rules.

This is a good example of how a little information can be dangerous Jyn's ability doesn't reduce the cost of all the yellow event cards in your hand, deck, or discard. It has the potential to reduce them all, but will only actually reduce the cost of the first yellow event you play this round. Whether that card comes from your hand, discard, or some other source, so long as it's played, and it's yellow, it's cost is reduced.

So the example with Kylo1 is easy: the card isn't being played, so Jyn's ability has no effect. Playing a card from your discard? Are you playing it? Is it yellow? If yes to both, cost reduced.

2 hours ago, kingbobb said:

This is a good example of how a little information can be dangerous Jyn's ability doesn't reduce the cost of all the yellow event cards in your hand, deck, or discard. It has the potential to reduce them all, but will only actually reduce the cost of the first yellow event you play this round. Whether that card comes from your hand, discard, or some other source, so long as it's played, and it's yellow, it's cost is reduced.

So the example with Kylo1 is easy: the card isn't being played, so Jyn's ability has no effect. Playing a card from your discard? Are you playing it? Is it yellow? If yes to both, cost reduced.

That's not what you said earlier:

On 10/1/2018 at 10:42 AM, kingbobb said:

They just are always on. I think your best statement was that Jyn's ability is applied to cards even while they are in your hand, so long as you haven't already played a card.

You can't have your cake and eat it too. You and theo cant argue that jyn is both applying all the time and only applying when you go to check costs.

Jyn is always on, but only has her effect when you get to check costs, which is also when calling triggers but a plain reading of calling strongly implies that calling checks the cost of the card, as it was, before any other modifiers had/have an effect. Otherwise "before you play a card" doesn't have any meaning.

Truthfully though, this game needs to define "printed cost" vs "cost after modifiers".

On 10/3/2018 at 10:34 AM, ****-Drone said:

You can't have your cake and eat it too. You and theo cant argue that jyn is both applying all the time and only applying when you go to check costs.

I have been taking out most italics and underlines and capital letters because it can be construed as condescending and/or frustration. I am going to ask you to trust me when I say I am not intending to communicate either, and am trying to emphasize the more important parts that I feel are being overlooked. If I were talking, these emphases would be there, which is why taking them out makes communication through writing more difficult for me (because I'd rather my life be more difficult than be interpreted as rude).

I am not trying to have my cake and eat it, too. You are conflating the two statements. One statement is "Her ability is always on and always applies." The other statement is "Her ability doesn't always matter and doesn't always have an effect."

I have very distinctly used the words "applies/always on" and "matters/has an effect" on purpose (although the instructions say to apply modifiers, so it could be confusing, but I try to isolate which "applies" I am using in a given sentence to be just one or the other). Her ability is always on. Her ability always applies. However, unless you are playing card, and it is an event, and it is yellow, and it is the first such card you are playing that round, her ability doesn't matter, her ability does not have an effect, i.e. nothing has been altered as a result of her ability applying. Because it always applies . It's always on . It just doesn't always have an effect . It never has an effect when you are not playing a card. When you are playing a card, you have already chosen the card that you are playing and it is either the first yellow event you're playing that round or it is not. If it is, then that card, and only that card , has it's cost affected by Jyn's ability, which is always on .

So, step 4 comes along. You must determine the cost using the modifiers from step 5, and if you can't pay for it then you can't play it. So you glimpse at step 5, and pretend that's where we are. You can tell that the card has a 3 printed on it. It's a yellow event, and you haven't played one this round, so Jyn's ability (which is on, and applies, at all times) means that the 3 is really 2. The 3 IS a 2 for purposes of playing the card. You will be able to trigger 'before you play a card' effects here. Alas, you have none that will be able to trigger. It is determined (we have returned to step 4) that the cost is going to be 2. You have 2. You can play the card. Step 5 comes along, and modifiers are applied. Any modifiers that have NO TIMING WINDOW are just applied, because they're applied, because they are going to be applied, and it doesn't trigger off of anything, so it's applied, outside of any timing window. The moment we are in step 5, the cost is decreased by 1. At the same time that those are already being applied, you can trigger before you play a card modifiers. But the trigger is happening WHILE those are being applied, not before. The before you PLAY A CARD ability is still happening before you the play the card, much like the card suggests that it would, but it is not happening before something that exists outside of timing windows, which the card does not suggest that it should.

BUT HONESTLY:

Forget it all. Forget everything above. Just, explain to me, using logic and/or the rules (dealer's choice), how something that triggers during a timing window can even remotely possibly be at the same time as something that just "is" during the entirety of that timing window. (EDIT EDIT: This is not meant to be combative (<-- the better word I couldn't produce), so much as it is just trying to approach the disconnect in a different way).

Also, please reply only to what I said in this comment. I can't do this lumping answers together thing, because then I have to respond to things the others say if I disagree. Once you're on the same page, I can go back to being done (unless Vitalis comes back and is still not convinced).