While I'm not 100% clear on this myself I would think they do actually "work" together. Jyn's ability functionally only works on a played event and given that Calling in Favors is a "before card is played" effect they should stack together.
Granted I may be wrong, but this does seem like a bit of a grey area.
I'd also like to see an official ruling on how "Calling in Favors" interacts with "Rebel". Also seems a little grey. I would assume they functionally work together as well.
Edited by RRadimakerCome on guys. 70+ people have viewed this post and nobody has an opinion?
I'd answer, but I don't know the answer. I followed so I could get the answer myself XD
39 minutes ago, Adran06 said:I'd answer, but I don't know the answer. I followed so I could get the answer myself XD
lol. Well, if you were a judge what would you call it? I would call Calling in Favors First, then Jyn Erso.
1 minute ago, Razelll said:lol. Well, if you were a judge what would you call it? I would call Calling in Favors First, then Jyn Erso.
Personally I'd say the same, but I've seen arguments of it being continuous so it doesn't "trigger", and thus automatically applies first, because there's no choice involved or something. It working the way you're saying makes more sense to ME, though
2 hours ago, Adran06 said:Personally I'd say the same, but I've seen arguments of it being continuous so it doesn't "trigger", and thus automatically applies first, because there's no choice involved or something. It working the way you're saying makes more sense to ME, though
Ya, I have seen of a lot of arguments to . I thought because of all the arguments I have seen that this would be a big thing on here, but... guess not.
Before happens before. Even if they are simultaneous (both before) you get to choose the order they fire off in. Either way you are fine if i'm the TO.
I would rule it works. I ran this by another TO and he said it would work. Ran it across another TO and he said no because its an continuous effect.
As you stated you exhaust the plot, it checks the board state, play event which triggers Jyn which reduces the event cost.
Jyn's ability is static. It is always on. The cost of the first yellow event is decreased by 1. It doesn't cost 3, it costs 2. Jyn reduces the cost first.
On the subreddit, you can find Gandork explaining why Palp2, Delve, and Calling in Favors do not combo if Palp2's ability reduces the cost to less than three.
EDIT: For those looking for more than that, please note that the section that allows you order abilities applies only to triggered abilities.
p. 17: ONGOING ABILITIES
Any non-keyword ability whose text contains no trigger condition and does not have a bold word in front of it.
p. 18: SIMULTANEOUS ABILITIES
When two or more triggered abilities meet their trigger conditions at the same time . . .
Jyn reduces the cost first.
Edited by TheoGrizzOn 9/16/2018 at 7:39 PM, Adran06 said:Personally I'd say the same, but I've seen arguments of it being continuous so it doesn't "trigger", and thus automatically applies first, because there's no choice involved or something. It working the way you're saying makes more sense to ME, though
The reason there is no choice is because the part of the rules that allows you to resolve abilities in the order of your choice is Simultaneous Abilities, and it does not apply to ongoing abilities. See above post.
On 9/18/2018 at 11:02 AM, TheoGrizz said:Jyn's ability is static. It is always on. The cost of the first yellow event is decreased by 1. It doesn't cost 3, it costs 2. If it said "Before you play a Yellow event for the first time this round, decrease the cost by 1," then that would be a different story. But it doesn't. Jyn reduces the cost first.
On the subreddit, you can find Gandork explaining why Palp2, Delve, and Calling in Favors do not combo if Palp2's ability reduces the cost to less than three.
EDIT: For those looking for more than that, please note that the section that allows you order abilities applies only to triggered abilities.
p. 17: ONGOING ABILITIES
Any non-keyword ability whose text contains no trigger condition and does not have a bold word in front of it.
p. 18: SIMULTANEOUS ABILITIES
When two or more triggered abilities meet their trigger conditions at the same time . . .
Jyn reduces the cost first.
Even if it's always on, it still only actually has its effect at the step where you apply all modifiers to the cost. Calling states that before you even play the card you modify the next card. Calling happens, you then follow the playing a card steps which includes applying all modifiers, both take effect.
Neither calling nor jyns ability modify the card while its still in your hand which is where it's at when you can trigger calling.
Also, the rulebook entry on decreasing (page 20) makes it clear that the decrease only has an effect for the duration of when it needs to.... in this case, when you actually pay for the event. Thus, they stack regardless of triggers or ongoing. This is the exact same principle as reaping and it binds. Whether ongoing or not they still have to check if their effect is valid, meaning they don't necessarily apply themselves prior to the card getting actually paid for...
22 hours ago, ****-Drone said:
Even if it's always on, it still only actually has its effect at the step where you apply all modifiers to the cost. Calling states that before you even play the card you modify the next card. Calling happens, you then follow the playing a card steps which includes applying all modifiers, both take effect.
Neither calling nor jyns ability modify the card while its still in your hand which is where it's at when you can trigger calling.
Also, the rulebook entry on decreasing (page 20) makes it clear that the decrease only has an effect for the duration of when it needs to.... in this case, when you actually pay for the event. Thus, they stack regardless of triggers or ongoing. This is the exact same principle as reaping and it binds. Whether ongoing or not they still have to check if their effect is valid, meaning they don't necessarily apply themselves prior to the card getting actually paid for...
Yes, it is decreased for the entire duration that the card is being played; we agree. From the time that you decide to play the card, to the time you can trigger before effects, to the time you resolve those before effects, to the time the card is resolved. During all of that. While all of that is going on, the ongoing effect is "active." It just, is.
I don't mean, "It just is, that's why." I mean, like, exists. It just... is. It exists. It's there. There's no time for anything to happen before it. It's ongoing. While you're checking your cards for before triggers, it's already happening.
I have noticed that a lot of people--and I'm not saying this does or does not apply to you, this is our first interaction--get hung up on "before." They treat it like the word "before" instead of the way the game treats it, which is on p. 18. The thing must first be happening in order for the other thing to happen before it. I get why people get hung up on it; it's counter-intuitive: "I can do ABC before XYZ, but prior to doing ABC before XYZ, I have to be doing XYZ." Whereas this particular ongoing effect is just, "If XYZ then Q." So, yes, you still do ABC before XYZ, but you do it within Q.
Oh. "Automatic" was the word I couldn't produce.
I'm not sure if this is against Terms or Privacy because a cursory search found neither, but here:
Guys you all missed that:
QuoteThe "Play a Card" entry on page 14 in the Rules Reference should read:
Whenever a player wishes to play a card, that player follows these steps, in order:
- Declare intent by showing the card and adding it to the queue.
- Check play restrictions. If the play restrictions cannot be met, the action is illegal.
- Choose target(s), if applicable. All upgrades require a target. If there are no eligible targets, the action is illegal.
- Determine the cost (or costs, if multiple costs are required). If the cost(s) cannot be paid (taking all modifiers into account), the action is illegal.
- Apply modifiers to the cost(s). Replacing an upgrade and “before you play” abilities may be triggered at this time.
- Pay the cost(s).
- If the card is next in line in the queue, resolve its effects. After the card resolves, it is either discarded (events) or put into play (non-events).
posted in official rulings. Now we can see that both Jyn and Calling in Favours trigger in point 5 (as 4 just checks if there are any possible cost reductions - its clearly stated that cost reduction itself occurs at 5). Since they both trigger at the same time they falls under "simultanious effects" and should be decided by battlefield controler.
10 hours ago, Vitalis said:Guys you all missed that:
posted in official rulings. Now we can see that both Jyn and Calling in Favours trigger in point 5 (as 4 just checks if there are any possible cost reductions - its clearly stated that cost reduction itself occurs at 5). Since they both trigger at the same time they falls under "simultanious effects" and should be decided by battlefield controler.
So you are saying if you control the battlefield then it works? But if you don't control the battlefield then it doesn't work?
11 hours ago, Vitalis said:Guys you all missed that:
posted in official rulings. Now we can see that both Jyn and Calling in Favours trigger in point 5 (as 4 just checks if there are any possible cost reductions - its clearly stated that cost reduction itself occurs at 5). Since they both trigger at the same time they falls under "simultanious effects" and should be decided by battlefield controler.
AH! No. Please do not spread this misinformation. The order of simultaneous abilities is not decided by the battlefield controller.
When abilities are triggered at the same time, the player resolving them decides the order in which the abilities are resolved. The only thing that comes down to the player who controls the battlefield is which player resolves his or her abilities first when both players have abilities that are triggered at the same time. The chosen player then resolves all of his or her abilities that triggered (which includes choosing not to do a "may"), and then the other player does the same.
Additionally, as I stated earlier, the section on "Simultaneous Abilities" starts with these exact words: "When two or more triggered abilities . . . ." There is no mention at all of ongoing abilities. The section on Simultaneous Abilities does not apply to Ongoing Abilities.
Please see the picture from a Discord chat involving thegandork (by now it is common knowledge that he was the head judge at Worlds (well, I guess technically Jeremy was, but you know what I mean), but I'll mention it in case some didn't know). He uses the words "automatic" and instantaneous" to describe the 'speed' at which the ongoing ability takes effect, and that it is prior to when you can decide to exhaust something with a before trigger.
Edited by TheoGrizz1 hour ago, Razelll said:So you are saying if you control the battlefield then it works? But if you don't control the battlefield then it doesn't work?
No. Your opponent cannot tell you the order in which you resolve your own abilities. The controller of the battlefield decides which player resolves his or her triggers first, not the order of those triggers.
On 9/16/2018 at 7:36 PM, Razelll said:lol. Well, if you were a judge what would you call it? I would call Calling in Favors First, then Jyn Erso.
Based on the pattern of comments that you've 'liked,' I interpret your 'likes' as you saying, "Sure, I understand, but what about this?" There are a lot of opinions and arguments out there, and you want to be sure. I get that.
But I want to draw your attention back to this comment you made towards the beginning. The picture of the Discord chat is exactly that: it is how a judge would call it. Not your hey-we-need-a-judge-ummmm-you judge, but a legit, that-guy-from-worlds-and-gen-con-that-people-always-reference judge in blue judge's vest. I can definitely understand wanting it to work that way, making her possibly a little more playable. I mean, it's not like I'm here to trample sand castles and dreams. But it doesn't.
7 hours ago, TheoGrizz said:No. Your opponent cannot tell you the order in which you resolve your own abilities. The controller of the battlefield decides which player resolves his or her triggers first, not the order of those triggers.
That is what I thought. Thanks for the clarification.
6 hours ago, TheoGrizz said:Based on the pattern of comments that you've 'liked,' I interpret your 'likes' as you saying, "Sure, I understand, but what about this?" There are a lot of opinions and arguments out there, and you want to be sure. I get that.
But I want to draw your attention back to this comment you made towards the beginning. The picture of the Discord chat is exactly that: it is how a judge would call it. Not your hey-we-need-a-judge-ummmm-you judge, but a legit, that-guy-from-worlds-and-gen-con-that-people-always-reference judge in blue judge's vest. I can definitely understand wanting it to work that way, making her possibly a little more playable. I mean, it's not like I'm here to trample sand castles and dreams. But it doesn't.
That was a post from a while ago when I didn't know how it worked. Your Discord thread tho was really helpful, and that is when I decided that it doesn't work. Cuz if a judge from Worlds rules it that way, then 99% of the time it is that way. Thanks again for the proof that it doesn't work.
12 hours ago, TheoGrizz said:AH! No. Please do not spread this misinformation. The order of simultaneous abilities is not decided by the battlefield controller.
Yes yes, that was my mistake of course!
Simultanious effect from 1 player are decided by that player. My bad of course.
12 hours ago, TheoGrizz said:
Additionally, as I stat ed earlier, the section on "Simultaneous Abilities" starts with these exact words: "When two or more triggered abilities . . . ." There is no mention at all of ongoing abilities. The section on Simultaneous Abilities does not apply to Ongoing Abilities.
Please see the picture from a Discord chat involving thegandork (by now i t is common knowledge that he was the head judge at Worlds (well, I guess technically Jeremy was, but you know what I mean), but I'll mention it in case some didn't know). He uses the words "automatic" and instantaneous" to describe the 'speed' at which the ongoing ability takes effect, and that it is prior to when you can decide to exhaust something with a before trigger.
Soooo how do you resolve point 5 in that sequence then?
Both Jyn (that IS cost reduction) and CiF (that is Before you play ability) triggers at point 5 as it is clearly stated that cost reductions NOT applied at point 4. Her being an ongoing ability changes nothing here cause she needs to fall under cost reduction sequence at some point - and that is point nr 5.
How you decide sequence then if not by Simultanious Abilities section
8 hours ago, Vitalis said:Her being an ongoing ability changes nothing here cause she needs to fall under cost reduction sequence at some point - and that is point nr 5.
How you decide sequence then if not by Simultanious Abilities section
It changes everything. You don't decide the sequence because it's an ongoing ability; it is automatic. The "at some point" you mention is immediately.
Yes, her ability is a modifier, but it is still not a trigger. You get to choose the order of resolution only of your triggers. This is supported by the rules because the only section of the rules that mentions choosing the order of resolution of abilities--thus, the only part that grants that power--applies only to triggered abilities.
12 hours ago, TheoGrizz said:It changes everything. You don't decide the sequence because it's an ongoing ability; it is automatic. The "at some point" y ou mention is immediately.
Yes, her ability is a modifier, but it is still not a trigger. You get to choose the order of re solution only of your triggers. This is supported by the rules because the only section of the rules that mentions choosing the order of re solution of abilities--thus, the only part that grants that power--applies only to triggered abilities.
Sorry but that does not make sense. Ok she is an ongoing ability (well...by the long shot we can argue that she has a trigger - playing an event - but that is really long shot and I'm not taking it, at least not here and now
) but there is no such things in the rules as "immediate" cost reduction. Costs reductions of any kind falls into Play a Card sequence. Point me, please, to citation that shows otherwise and I'm happy to agree. She is an ongoing automatic cost reduction but still cost reduction nevertheless and should obey cost reductions rules - even thegandork pointed that on discord discussion but i don't agree about the point it occurs- and you are trying to prove she exists outside that sequence.
Edited by Vitalis
On 9/26/2018 at 1:47 AM, Vitalis said:Sorry but that does not make sense. Ok she is an ongoing ability (well...by the long shot we can argue that she has a trigger - playing an event - but that is really long shot and I'm not taking it, at least not here and now
Her ability does exist outside of that sequence, regardless of whether or not her ability matters. There is a difference between when the ability applies and when the ability matters. Ongoing = always.
It sounds like you're saying that playing the event is what activates Jyn's ability. That is wrong . It's always active. If you play a red upgrade, her ability is active. If you pass, her ability is active. Even after you play a yellow event, her ability is still active for the rest of the round, it just won't do anything . For every moment of the game, from set up to Jyn being defeated (or victory without Jyn being defeated), her ability is active. It is ongoing .
When you determine the card cost, you're checking Jyn to see if she applies, not if she triggers. Is this the first yellow event I'm playing this round? If yes, then it costs one less. "Before you play" abilities are not triggered until you are applying modifiers. So the question isn't, "Does Jyn or Calling in Favors happen first?" The question is "Does something that's applied when modifiers are applied or something that can't be triggered until modifiers are being applied happen first?"
Think of Jyn's ability as defining the context in which you are playing the card, and Calling in Favors as affecting the cost within that context.
To illustrate...
Your car gets damaged. For $4/month, your insurance company has a policy called Calling in Favors that pays $1,000 ($2,000 when living as a single person) of a $3,000 or more repair invoice every year. It is not a reimbursement; they pay it ahead of time. Your city has a law, Jyn's law, that requires repair shops to charge $1,000 less on the final invoice for all electric/hybrid cars the first time each car comes in each year (for which the shops are credited by the government on their taxes). You have an estimate for $3,000. You also have a hybrid car. The estimate was 100% accurate. The repair shop follows the law, of course, so the final invoice comes out to be $2,000. You send the invoice to your insurance company. They say they are sorry, but the invoice does not meet the standards of the Calling in Favors policy; however, you are still able to use the policy later that year if you need it and meet the policy requirements. You protest, showing them the estimate. They politely shrug and say, "I'm not sure what you want us to do. Yes, the total cost could have been $3,000 if you lived in a different city, but you live here, so it isn't. The law is the law; it always applies. And the law says the invoice is only $2,000, not $3,000. Until there is a change in federal law ( see below ), the policy won't work off of the estimate total."
( From above ) If FFG ever prints in a clarifications or FAQ that the two can combine for a 3-cost yellow event, then that will be the only reason it works that way. It's the same thing that it was with board state, an empty backup muscle, and passing. The only reason that exhausting backup muscle with no damage on it didn't count as changing the board state, and therefore counted as a pass, is because the book specifically said that it didn't (which it no longer says). That didn't change the fact that technically the board state had changed (the finite number of things you could do changed). So for now, until they print specifically otherwise, which they very well might, the above analogy is how it works.
Also, just to get out in front of questions about how the analogy would apply to other cards... It Binds All Things, Streetwise, and the like, would be policies. Reaping the Crystal, Rearm, Well-Armed, and the like, would be more like rental agreements. And Padawan and K-2SO would be laws.
Edited by TheoGrizz