Agreed. Unfortunately FFG just dropped their first Rules Reference revision and there's no mention of this. Wish we'd gotten it in sooner.

On 9/19/2018 at 12:06 AM, Icelom said:

It triggers for all the other YT-2400.... just not dash.

The idea that FFG deliberately wrote in anti-synergy between Dash and his own ship is nonsense.

While RAW it does look like Dash can't proc Outrider, that simply cannot be RAI.

This is not the first time they've ****ed up an obvious synergy by using the 'ignoring obstacles' clause, Scum Han and Qi'ra have the exact same problem.

They need an FAQ where they clarify that 'ignoring' an obstacle means ignoring its effects , not acting like it doesn't exist at all. Eg. If you can ignore obstacles and you are obstructed by one, you actually ignore the effects of being obstructed, but you still count as being obstructed. Or... something. Idk, they've made the wording on this really hard.

On 9/19/2018 at 9:30 AM, Sonikgav said:

The argument here is basically you want to ignore the negative effects but still gain the positive effects.

Well... yeah.

That appears to be the intended effect of certain combinations of upgrades. Outrider is Dash's ship and they're supposed to work well together because Dash lets you ignore the negative effects of obstacles, and Outrider gives you benefits from them. If Dash's ability was optional, and depending on the turn you could either proc Dash or Outrider, then I might buy more into the argument that RAI they're supposed to clash. But Dash can never benefit from Outrider, currently.

Which is just.... stupid.

2 minutes ago, GuacCousteau said:

But Dash can never benefit from Outrider, currently.

Which is just.... stupid.

Don't lie, he gets the benefit of the first part of outrider.

9 minutes ago, Icelom said:

Don't lie, he gets the benefit of the first part of outrider.

You know what I mean.

No one likes a pedant. And I say that as a pedant.

5 minutes ago, Icelom said:

Don't lie, he gets the benefit of the first part of outrider.

14 points for a reverse trick shot doesn't seem good to me.

9 minutes ago, GuacCousteau said:

They need an FAQ where they clarify that 'ignoring' an obstacle means ignoring its effects , not acting like it doesn't exist at all. Eg. If you can ignore obstacles and you are obstructed by one, you actually ignore the effects of being obstructed, but you still count as being obstructed. Or... something. Idk, they've made the wording on this really hard.

I think that's what they were trying to do by wording the abilities to trigger at different times. Dash's pilot ability only works "while you move." Outrider procs "after you fully execute a maneuver." When I first read those abilities it never occurred to me that someone could interpret them to mean that Dash's pilot ability negates the Outrider proc. It was only after it was announced that the local TO would be ruling that it doesn't that I realized there was an ambiguity.

But I agree, it's totally asinine.

I just messaged ff's rules questions board, if i get a response ill post a screenshot of yhe email here

Local TO finally listened to reason and ruled that Dash's pilot ability doesn't negate the last part of Outrider, so reason prevailed!

On 9/19/2018 at 9:30 AM, Sonikgav said:

"Oh but you still moved through an obstacle , you should take damage"

Same argument could be made guys.

The argument here is basically you want to ignore the negative effects but still gain the positive effects.

In case anyone hasn't seen it, this was cleared up in the rules thread:

And of course Outr ider works with Dash.

Something I'm a bit confused about is can Dash still fire while on an Asteroid (withing range 0 of the Asteroid). I can see that he ignores the effects of moving through or on an obstacle when it moves, but what about when it attacks? Could someone explain to me clearly so I can explain it back to someone if I do it and asks me to "prove" it with rules?

4 minutes ago, Glyph said:

Something I'm a bit confused about is can Dash still fire while on an Asteroid (withing range 0 of the Asteroid). I can see that he ignores the effects of moving through or on an obstacle when it moves, but what about when it attacks? Could someone explain to me clearly so I can explain it back to someone if I do it and asks me to "prove" it with rules?

Nope. As is stated on his pilot ability he only ignores the effects of moving through obstacles (including asteroids) and it says nothing about attacking so that effect from the asteroids still triggers when he would try to attack. "Moving" does include his barrel roll though. For good measure, Outrider doesn't permit attacking when in contact with asteroids either.

Quote

Q: What does “ignores obstacles” mean? Do Han Solo [Pilot, Customized YT-1300] and Qi’ra [Crew] work together? What about Dash Rendar [YT-2400] and Outrider [Title]?

A: When an effect says a ship “ignores obstacles,” it means that ship “ignores the effects of obstacles.” A ship that is “ignoring obstacles” does not apply the effects of overlapping or moving through them. When that ship performs an attack that is obstructed by an obstacle it ignores the effects of the obstruction, so the defender does not roll 1 additional defense die being obstructed by the obstacles the attacker is ignoring.

However, the obstacles are still treated as being present for effects that check for their presence or absence. Additionally, an attack is obstructed by an obstacle even while the effects of the obstacle are ignored. This applies to cards such as Outrider , Han Solo [Pilot, Customized YT-1300], and Trick Shot (Talent).

Additionally, other ships do not ignore the obstacle when resolving effects that interact with a ship that is ignoring obstacles. For instance, while a ship that is ignoring obstacles defends, if the attack is obstructed, it still rolls 1 additional defense die because the attacker is not ignoring the effects of obstacles.

But, if Dash ignores obstacles, surely he ignores the effects of it when shooting also, as described in the 3rd sentence of the first paragraph. I don't want to be that guy but I'm just trying make sense of what these guys wrote in the FAQ section. I understand that RAI was meant to be only during the activation phase, but RAW it's not clear and I'm Just trying to get a competitive edge.

1 hour ago, Glyph said:

But, if Dash ignores obstacles, surely he ignores the effects of it when shooting also, as described in the 3rd sentence of the first paragraph. I don't want to be that guy but I'm just trying make sense of what these guys wrote in the FAQ section. I understand that RAI was meant to be only during the activation phase, but RAW it's not clear and I'm Just trying to get a competitive edge.

It's really ******* simple.

Does his ability say: "You ignore obstacles" or does it say "While you are moving, you may ignore obstacles."?

Shooting =/= moving, and you are trying to be 'that guy' now knock it off and play to the rules.

First of all, there's no need to use bad language. Swearing is neither smart not clever. It's a crutch used by those who lack the vocabulary and intelligence to find an alternative word.

Secondly, the way the FAQ is written, it isn't crystal clear. The way they wrote it it can be interpreted as whenever you have an effect that ignores obstacles you automatically ignore the it when attacking. It is never implicitly stated, in the FAQ, that if the ignores obstacles rule is only referred to a particular action (like moving) that you do not gain its benefit in shooting. Also, Dash's ability could've been written as "You may, only when moving, ignore obstacles" to make it even more implicit.

Iam not sure what the confusion is. It says while you move you ignore obstacles. If it JUST said you ignore obstacles you'd be correct but it doesn't .

My confusion lies in the FAQ that seems to imply that ignores obstacles is a term that once you gain it (in Dash's case when moving) it allows you to ignore obstacles while attacking too.

It's stating that ignore obstacles means you ignore them.

If it said on the card while you shoot you ignore obstacles you would not ignore them in any other phase but you would in the shooting phase.

Just read it as it's wrote on the card .

The faq is just clearing up possibilities when attacking/defending through an obstacle if you are ignoring it .

Basically Dash ignores any effects of obstacles, even barrel rolling onto them, apart from during the engagement phase. If Dash ends up on a rock, he can't shoot. The outrider title is an addition to this.

On 1/5/2019 at 2:44 PM, Glyph said:

First of all, there's no need to use bad language. Swearing is neither smart not clever. It's a crutch used by those who lack the vocabulary and intelligence to find an alternative word.

No, it was the correct word and I used it for emphasis. Because I'm smart and clever.

Smart enough to read a very simple rules clarification without getting confused, at least. Do you dress yourself in the mornings or do you need help with that too?

On ‎1‎/‎5‎/‎2019 at 2:54 PM, Glyph said:

My confusion lies in the FAQ that seems to imply that ignores obstacles is a term that once you gain it (in Dash's case when moving) it allows you to ignore obstacles while attacking too.

No. Because whilst your statement is correct in that if you ignore obstacles you can ignore them when shooting, dash doesn't ignore obstacles permanently after the first time you move, he ignores them whilst moving. When you've finished moving, you don't ignore obstacles until you start moving again, because you're not in a stage of the game which meets the trigger 'whilst moving'.

If dash could somehow perform an attack whilst moving, that would be fine, but he can't.

The ruling is a general one for 'ignore obstacles', which can apply in many different situations depending on what ability is granting it - in Dash's case, it's for whilst moving.

It's not a case of "You may, only when moving, ignore obstacles" being needed - if the rule says "when X, you may Y" you only get benefit Y in that specific situation, unless it's granted to you from a different source (another upgrade or ability or the core rules).

Mining guild TIE is effectively a base level Imp TIE with Dash's ability for a single extra point.

Title for this thread should actually be 2e Dash is overpriced.

19 minutes ago, Gallanteer said:

Mining guild TIE is effectively a base level Imp TIE with Dash's ability for a single extra point.

Title for this thread should actually be 2e Dash is overpriced.

Dash ignores debris when moving too, though - and ignoring obstacles on a not-quite-as-good-as-an-Imperial-TIE-Fighter and ignoring it on a big ship with a 4-dice turret (potentially 5 with trick shot) and which can potentially create its own debris mid-game is very different indeed.

36 minutes ago, SOTL said:

No, it was the correct word and I used it for emphasis. Because I'm smart and clever.

Smart enough to read a very simple rules clarification without getting confused, at least.

Which is presumably not quite smart enough to be free of the desire to be rude to people on the internet.

1 hour ago, Cuz05 said:

Which is presumably not quite smart enough to be free of the desire to be rude to people on the internet.

"I'm no trying to be that guy ... I'm just trying to get a competitive edge."

He's earned it. And as previously stated, being rude to people on the internet is a clear privilege of being smart and clever.

I will be ignoring this thread for the remainder of my activation.