As most of you already know, FFG Squad Builder offers several rulesets for squad building, including Second Edition (only the re-released expansions are available) and Extended (all ships and cards from conversion kits are available).

In my (very limited) experience with 2.0, the Elite Tie-Swarm (Howl, Iden and 4 more elite Ties, usually with a few cheap Talents) seems to be super strong , and very hard to beat, especially in the joust.

Moreover, under the Second Edition ruleset, some of the best counters to the Tie Swarm (like TrajSim Proton Bombs) will not be available, so I think it's fair to assume that a Tie Swarm will be one of the top squads to beat, and a frequent sight in the early 2.0 "Second Edition ruleset" meta.

So what do you think is the best way to counter the Elite Tie Swarm for each of the factions? (under Second Edition rules)

My 2c for this conversation:

• Empire has a decent arc-dodging ace in Supernatural Vader, and can always opt to "fight fire with fire" and bring a Tie Swarm of their own
• Scum have Boba (who is reasonably durable with reinforce and/or re-rolls) and Fenn (who can throw 5 dice at R1) but need to play a perfect game to have a chance of winning (Boba can survive 1 round of full swarm firepower. Fenn probably can't)
• Rebels seem to have the least options available. Supernatural Luke with his ability (and possibly regen) is reasonably tanky vs Tie Swarm, but pretty much anything else will simply disintegrate if caught in the arcs of a Tie Swarm.

So long story short, it seems that we're left with "bring an arc-dodging ace (or two), and hope you don't make mistakes". Or I am missing something?

Please discuss!

So I think I have an answer to this, but I also think I'm likely to need the TIE players not to know what that answer is so I'm hanging onto it for now. You definitely missed my answer though, as i plan on jousting them.

But just one thing: Fenn is ok vs the Swarm but Boba isn't any better than a generic bounty hunter really as even with his rerolls he doesn't want to get to R1. The TIEs get more from an extra red dice than Boba gets from rerolling the dice he's got.

Just now, SOTL said:

So I think I have an answer to this, but I also think I'm likely to need the TIE players not to know what that answer is so I'm hanging onto it for now.

If that is the case, you don't have the answer to this, right? You'll still want to beat them on the second game, or if they happened to glance at your table, after all!

I have not idea what rebels are supposed to do against the swarm menace, their options look decidedly meh.

Just now, Admiral Deathrain said:

If that is the case, you don't have the answer to this, right? You'll still want to beat them on the second game, or if they happened to glance at your table, after all!

I have not idea what rebels are supposed to do against the swarm menace, their options look decidedly meh.

I think it'll take them a good while to work out an answer, but I don't want to give them a months head start!

Luke can survive 7 TIE fighter shots with Howl and Focus while only taking ~4 damage on average. I'd say he's going to do ok if he jousts and the whole rest of your list flanks. Likely, put Biggs near him and he's fine.

30 minutes ago, vladamex said:

Moreover, under the Second Edition ruleset, some of the best counters to the Tie Swarm (like TrajSim Proton Bombs) will not be available,

Wait a minute, TrajSim proton bombs doesn't work?

Just now, pyoinator said:

Wait a minute, TrajSim proton bombs doesn't work?

Second Edition rules are only cards from wave 1 sets (plus Reaper, Saws, Lando Falcon). Traj Sim is not in the pool.

Just now, SOTL said:

Second Edition rules are only cards from wave 1 sets (plus Reaper, Saws, Lando Falcon). Traj Sim is not in the pool.

Ohhhhhhhh Thanks I got it now

26 minutes ago, SOTL said:

Boba isn't any better than a generic bounty hunter really as even with his rerolls he doesn't want to get to R1. The TIEs get more from an extra red dice than Boba gets from rerolling the dice he's got.

Agreed in general - Boba doesn't like being in R1 of a swarm (if he can help it). Still, if he can bump one of the Ties, and possibly hurt (or even kill, at Init 5) another tie with his 4-die R1 shot with re-rolls, he can hurt the ties far more than a Bounty Hunter could.

21 minutes ago, Npmartian said:

Luke can survive 7 TIE fighter shots with Howl and Focus while only taking ~4 damage on average. I'd say he's going to do ok if he jousts and the whole rest of your list flanks. Likely, put Biggs near him and he's fine.

Good point. Still, Ties could decide to fire at Biggs instead, and possibly kill him before he fires (with Howl firing at Init 5 and 3-4 Inferno Squad ties firing at Init 4). Losing Biggs in round 1 would be a huge blow for the Rebel player.

Rebel answers seem to be very very limited. Even a high-PS proton-torp alpha strike squad of say Wedge/Luke/Dutch will have a hard time killing one tie in the first exchange (due to Iden neutering your best shot) and then would probably lose one ship in return (whoever is in the crosshairs).

I'm hoping it's just that I'm missing something obvious (please enlighten me! )

Also, if you do come around any 2.0 batreps vs Tie Swarm, please share the links here

It is a lot harder for scum since the (cr)app will not allow you to add the escape craft to your squad in the "wave 1 only" mode.

have you tried selecting the extended button in the official builder? it has almost everything for 2.0

4 minutes ago, TerrorScream said:

have you tried selecting the extended button in the official builder? it has almost everything for 2.0

He means there’s different formats, how will you beat Tie Swarm in the Second Edition Format Tournament?

Also, Tie Swarm should be the best list in the game. However, Iden is horrible design and probably as bad as Biggs was for 1.0, I’ll be abusing her for the next 3-4 months until the increase Tie’s cost and make my Swarm illegal.

There needs to be some way to fight them without being in arc. Like a 360 turret or something like that.

Whats the problem? Tie swarms are pretty hard to use effectively... They tend to bump into themselves and can die pretty quickly.

A good tie swarm player is something to be admired, not feared to the point of overpowering other ships.

Edit: im just really glad to see basic ties back on the table. So thematic!

34 minutes ago, vladamex said:

Agreed in general - Boba doesn't like being in R1 of a swarm (if he can help it). Still, if he can bump one of the Ties, and possibly hurt (or even kill, at Init 5) another tie with his 4-die R1 shot with re-rolls, he can hurt the ties far more than a Bounty Hunter could.

Not with Iden on the table, he can't. So Round 1 most of the swarm gets to shoot the Firespray, and it (effectively) gets no shot in return. That feels like a difficult hurdle for an ace list (particularly one where 40-50% of your points are spent on one ship) to get over.

1 hour ago, Admiral Deathrain said:

I have not idea what rebels are supposed to do against the swarm menace, their options look decidedly meh.

Swarms want to stay clumped together, right? So just bring a Nebulon-B or MC30 in close and roll anti-squadron against everything in arc!

...which game's forum is this, again?

1 hour ago, SOTL said:

I think it'll take them a good while to work out an answer, but I don't want to give them a months head start!

7. The answer is 7.

39 minutes ago, NeverBetTheFett said:

There needs to be some way to fight them without being in arc. Like a 360 turret or something like that.

<glare> There are some things you shouldn't joke about.

I also like the fact that the Tie Swarm is a strong list archetype. And I know that they are hard to fly effectively.

Still, I thought we can discuss some of the ways to counter play the swarms using just the ships/cards allowed by the Second Edition rules.

Especially from the perspective of the Rebels since they seem to be in the toughest spot IMO.

Hey @Tbetts94 any suggestions from your end based on your testing/games?

1 hour ago, Rodafowa said:

Not with Iden on the table, he can't. So Round 1 most of the swarm gets to shoot the Firespray, and it (effectively) gets no shot in return. That feels like a difficult hurdle for an ace list (particularly one where 40-50% of your points are spent on one ship) to get over.

Boba will have wingmates. If you bring Boba/Fenn, you could feasibly kill Howl before the rest of the swarm shoots, greatly reducing the amount of expected incoming fire. I wouldn't recommend a straight up joust, but it can be done.

6 minutes ago, vladamex said:

I also like the fact that the Tie Swarm is a strong list archetype. And I know that they are hard to fly effectively.

Still, I thought we can discuss some of the ways to counter play the swarms using just the ships/cards allowed by the Second Edition rules.

Especially from the perspective of the Rebels since they seem to be in the toughest spot IMO.

Look to the Illicit slot! Deadman's Switch and Rigged Cargo can do some work.

I find spreading out helps. A swarm is either forced to break up or try to focus on one or two units. Don't go near the swarm for the first turn or two and see which pilot they go for. Have your other units swing around and take a few shots.

Use asteroids to your advantage. Fly close to them and you may break them up or get them off of you.

TIE swarms are powerful but I haven't seen too many players that can keep them together for long.

V swarms, you want ships that can boost/slam/cloak/aileron

Boost lets you easily navigate obstacles that are ESSENTIAL for breaking up formations and ensuring you're not eating all the shots at once

So Xwings, fangs, and sprays

Thanks @gennataos , @TechnoGolem and @ficklegreendice for the suggestions! All of the flying tips make sense!

A Scum squad of Boba(80), Fenn (68) and a Zealous Recruit (44) looks pretty good vs Tie Swarm on paper, and has 8 points left for customizations. For example, to upgrade ZR to Skull Squadron Pilot (+6 points for PS4) or to get Marauder/Han Solo gunner for Boba (+7 points). I'm gonna give this squad a run for sure

@gennataos Deadman's Switch is a really cool idea, I may try it on Boba

For Rebels , one option could be something like Luke(62), Wedge(52) and two Blue Squad Escorts (2x 41) which leaves just 4 points for customization. Wedge could become Biggs to provide better cover for Luke (exchange of offense for durability) but that could leave the squad much weaker in matchups vs ace lists.

How would you guys build a 4X (or a similar) rebel list that has a fighting chance vs. an Elite Tie Swarm?

2 hours ago, JJ48 said:

7. The answer is 7. 

I thought the answer was 42?

7 minutes ago, Malabor said:

I thought the answer was 42?

What are you, a man or a mouse?

22 minutes ago, vladamex said:

For   Rebels , one option could be something like  Luke(62), Wedge(52) and two Blue Squad Escort  s (2x 41) which leaves just 4 points for customization. Wedge could become Biggs to provide better cover for Luke (exchange of offense for durability) but that could leave the sq  uad muc  h weaker in matchups vs ace lists.   

I'd sooner put Supernatural on Luke and go with 3 Blue Squad Escorts and a 3 pt bid.

Instead of flying them together, split Luke off and make them choose who they want to go for. If they commit too early, jump in with the other. Even if they keep you guessing till the engagement, one of your groups will be in a great position. And best case scenario, if they split up their swarm to try to engage both, you're streets ahead.