Here's a deck I've been working on and testing. It's very competitive with the various Skaven and Order decks and can also hold it's own against Orc decks that don't run Mob Up (Though that's been improved with HE Disdain). It's also innovative, in that there are zero units in the deck -- the only such decklist I've seen -- making several of your opponents cards severely nerfed, or flat out dead cards. I'll concede that it probably looks pretty dumb on paper, But it is generating double digit resources for the start of the third turn, even without Contested Stronghold in play.

3x Repeater Bolt Thrower

3x Gifts of Aenarion

3x City Gates

3x Banish

3x Master Rune of Dismay

3x Wake the Mountain

3x Master Rune of Valaya

3x Keystone Forge (can't wait to make this Mining Tunnels!)

3x Contested Stronghold

3x Warpstone Excavation

3x Innovation

3x Reap What's Sown

3x Abandoned Mine

3x Treasure Vaults

3x Temple of Vaul

3x Flames of the Pheonix

3x High Elf's Disdain

you almost never play anything into the quest, save an early Warpstone Excavation or maybe a third or fourth turn Temple of Vaul. Reap and Abandoned Mine (with City Gates/Wake) are really enough card drawing.

i don't know if the deck is good or not, tough it's innovative.

That being said, you can't handle Grimgor.

Various anti-support can be bothering (yeah Disdain i know but right card, right moment, with enough ressources needed)

this deck deserves testing, for mechanics at least.

You're dead right about Grimgor. That's why I've been pleasantly surprised by his lack of inclusion in the recent Orc decks posted here and at deckbox.org

If/When FFG adds sideboarding rules, this deck would take a huge hit from all the extra Mob Up's, Pillages/Burn It Downs/Grimgors/Smash Go Booms.

Yes, this deck is much much better when people aren't expecting it which is why I had held off on posting it (until I was called out on my deck building skill z ).

OH -- and it's only TWO Treasure Vaults -- not 3. It's a 50 card deck.

f7eleven said:

Given your comment about generating double digit resources by turn 3 I'd normally suggest that Judgement + Will of Electors would find it's way into the deck. A Wrath of God board reset would seem to be almost a necessity in such a deck for when a lightning fast opponent starts dropping multiple units a turn, or indeed, just gets an good starting draw/drops. However after analysing a bit more I'm not so sure. I can see you're using Flames of the Pheonix for just this eventuality, but while I think a mix of Flames + Judgement might be useful, I think overall it's a theme which might slow down the deck with extra weight. And I'm unsure what you'd cut to get it in.

The core of the deck is 2 strings. A ton of cancelling damage (making Mob Up, as you rightly note, your bogey card) and that with an indirect damage kill mechanism (making toughness and dwarves an annoyance and a bad matchup). This is supplimented with a boomeranging the opponents units back to his hand theme (which may help a lot with the toughness and indirect damage problems) and a heavy development/innovation strategy which aids with resource generation.

Conceptually the deck, the cards and the themes mesh and synergize, and I can see how it works in my head. Certainly the draw/resource engine would seem, on paper, to deliver.

Think I'll build this and give it a go. However in my local environment the most players pack 3x Mob Up to every destruction deck already (I blame myself for playing stall decks so much...) and so I might not have as much success as other people.

I'm glad you get it Bountyhunter! Yes, toughness was annoying before Assault came out, but Flames seems to fix that. Also, I was running Judgment and Will, but JUST swapped them out to fit in Master Rune of Dismay to make the Flames that much better.

Here's the previous version of the deck (right after Assault came out): http://deckbox.org/sets/3095

Also I've experienced nothing dirtier in this game than having Innovation and Reap as the only two cards in your hand, with 10 developments in play

Repeater decks are definitely viable now. Flames of the Pheonix is just what they needed, and the fact that you can use it in Phase 0 with leftover resources makes it even better. You can basically dump two turns' worth of barrels directly on their capital as damage, minus the four for Flames, and most decks can't do much about it.

Pillage doesn't really even hurt that bad since you can just use the Repeater in response. You have to pay three to replay it, but that's not a huge setback. Grimgor is mildly annoying since you'll want to bounce him, but you can still play around him. You should certainly be able to stop Smash 'Em All from going off. Mortella is a real chump, however. Stealing your Valaya or Gift of Aenarion during Phase 0 is not good. And, yeah, Smash-Go-Boom is a pain, but that's usually a singleton.

I think your list is pretty good, but the loyalty costs seem a little steep. Master Rune of Dismay is solid, but you can't really pay six or seven for it. And Temple of Vaul is your only permanent HE icon on a single-loyalty card, which definitely doesn't cut it. That virtually guarantees that you'll be paying a loyalty on every Repeater and Flames that you play, and you might get stuck paying extra for Banish/Disdain. I would cut Reap What's Sown and Wake the Mountain for 3 High Elf/Dwarf banner and 3 Contested Village, and probably the MR of Dismay to two. That should give you a smoother start and still allow you to draw cards. You don't really want the game to go super-long, so you shouldn't have to worry about decking yourself.

I *might* switch out one Gift of Aenarion and run two Radiant Gaze. It's like a quasi-Valaya/Gift that doesn't care about Mob Up and also randomly works as an Infiltrate if you'd prefer. And you don't have to save four barrels. And it can't be ninja'd by Mortella. I also might consider Dragon Prince to corral the big rush starts. Even if they corrupt it or have some kind of removal they want to play on it, he's already done his thing.

Edit: I guess it would just be Gifts of Aenarion that Mortella could swipe to shut you down, since Valaya is just online during the combat phase.

The loyalty costs is probably the first thing everyone says. But when you're generating so many resources, it really doesn't matter that Wake costs 5 and Gifts costs 6. Though I suppose some Dwarf/HE banners wouldn't hurt. Only problem is, if I'm going to go back to running two-cost supports, I'm also going to want to put Contested Village back in. (Right now, every support costs 0, 3 or 4+).

Anyway, I can see messing around with the supports could strengthen the deck, but the tactics are pretty set. Other than Banish, I really don't think there's much wiggle room left.

f7eleven said:

In all fairness, you were "called out" for it due to disparaging remarks you made about the community's abilities in general. It bore mentioning lest ye feel unfairly picked on or something.

Interesting deck idea - I'd considered trying exactly this kind of deck (give or take a few cards) a few Battlepacks ago but didn't feel like there was enough there to make it worthwhile, then I promptly forgot about the idea. LOL I could see this really catching some people by surprise. Card removal or denial would probably really tear this deck up, I suspect.

Cyberfunk said, " Pillage doesn't really even hurt that bad since you can just use the Repeater in response ."

I'm a bit lost by what you mean with this sentence? How can Repeater Bolt negate the pain of you losing a support card? Am I missing something here??

The bolt thrower IS a support card. He was assuming the opponent would Pillage the bolt thrower itself. I'd say that Contested Stronghold is Pillage target #1.

It's really only on those early turns where resources will be an issue, I agree. Once you have three devs and a Stronghold or Vaults, you're set. But against rush decks, it seems like you need to be able to play defensive Tactics early on while still upping your barrel production. And once you get to around 12 barrels, it seems like you just want to force damage through rather than play more supports. If you pay six for a Master Rune of Dismay, you need to see three more turns to make that investment back. I think you should be able to win faster than that.

Maybe it's better to just MRoD altogether, though, so you can keep the Wake/Reap engine, or at least the Wake, which is pretty good in most draws. I still like banners and Villages, though, for filling out the curve if nothing else. Having all threes and fours doesn't give you much flexibility. I agree Banish is on the bubble, but I kind of like it for the Bloodthirster. I still think the third Gifts is on the bubble, too, since it's a fairly late-game card. I guess I probably liek Reap for those two slots at least.

Wytefang said:

Edit: f7 beat me to it, but this is what I had typed:

I was assuming players would attempt to Pillage the Repeater since it is your only win condition. Obviously, an early Pillage on Contested Stronghold or something would be bad, but it isn't necessarily a game-ender. I was just meaning that they can't kill your repeater before you have the opportunity to shoot your barrels at them, so it isn't an auto-loss.

Wytefang said:

Yeah, I remember the "Has anyone gotten an Indirect Damager deck to work" thread. I put together a similar deck then which was using the City Gates, Shrine to Taal, Jumper "engine" for it's resources. It was decent, but inconsistent, and many of it's wins came from double-digit-powered Johannes. Then when Deathmaster came out, he just owned the small units that get Shrine boosts early, and he had no problem knocking off Johannes a few turns later. So I decided to go "unitless" and realized that there are a TON of cards that become useless for your opponent, or near useless. Lobber Crew, Troll Vomit, Seduced by Darkness, Flames of Tzeentch, Brutal Offering, Deathmaster, Globadiers... and those are just some of the destructions ones. In some of the Chaos based Skaven decks, 40% of the deck was nerfed or dead.

And yes, scouts can be brutal. But as long as you can get an Abandoned Mine in to play, you can hide your good stuff and just grab it when you need it. Worst thing is the scout ability still triggers, even if a Valaya or Gifts is played and no damage is done :-(

It is actually surprisingly similar to a deck I built (though I made mine 56 with cheaper supports to increase my card draw and cut down on loyalty costs like Cyberfunk was talking about.

It is a gimmick deck, fun to surprise someone with, but not all that fun for me to play with regularly, and far less to play against. I actually am working on a character-lite version of it with just a small handful of characters primarily for that early game defense against rush decks and scouts... and because units are fun to play with.

Innovative thinking. Tough deck. I think yours may play a little more consistently than my original version, though when mine goes off I think it may be faster and easier to play. Perhaps before I build my character-lite version I'll play with yours and see if I can't find a way to make one that is consistent and fast. What has been your win/loss ratio?

Bountyhunter said:

It seems that with the amount of damage cancellation in the new set my local group has indeed decided that 3x Mob Up! is a definate in every single destruction deck. Along with Pillage that seroiusly hurts this deck. Who needs sideboaards when you're maindecking the cards anyway?

I could say a sentence including the words: handed, ass, me, I'd, to, my, get........ But I think you get the idea

Its a great idea, but the with the High Elfs entering the scene, certainly in my local environment, this simply won't work (which is unfortunate), as people who are playing Destruction seem to be building decks with hard counters to the new expansion strongly in mind (and I can't honestly say I'm not doing the same, as my Destruction deck has Mob Up! in it too)

I'm sure it'd be an interesting deck to try in other environments though.

In my meta it was happening as soon as the Toughness ruling came out. Boom. I'm reluctant to give up on the deck though, I have a feeling that within a two or three months the new hotness will come out and people will start adjusting their game for that stuff and people will wrap their head around the damage cancel edict and start packing other ways to deal with the big nasties.

This is one of the things I discovered while playing Thrones since its conversion, the cards come out so regularly that people start removing older cards and even forgetting about them. If you can time your deck right you can catch people when they have mostly forgotten about certain effects and strategies when they built their deck and it will allow you to do extremely well. Or course I also expect High elfs to gain more indirect damage dealers and healing cards which will make uncancelable damage not so attractive to the Chaos players.

I'm still wondering why people are playing Mob Up instead of Rip/Bloodthirster, which is good against pretty much everything. It's *slightly* more vulnerable to disruption, but the upside is so big. Skaven maybe doesn't have room for it, but every other Destruction deck...

It takes 6 slot instead of 3 and not limited to Bloodthirster damage. Is it a problem to add 3 card to your deck and be dependent of a combo?

Rip/Bloodthirster is more versatile, but not as efficient when you play it for damage cancellation only.

I got a bunch games in last night vs different Skaven based destruction decks, and must have won +80%. None of them were running Mob Up, though one was playing Rip+Bloodthirster, which is a bit easier to deal with because you can stop it with HE Disdain OR Banish. These Skaven decks are basically splashing a capital board for that races best creature removal, which is completely useless against me.

I'd also swapped out the 3x Master Rune of Dismay and 3x Keystone Forge for 3x Dwarf/HE Alliance and 3x Contested Village - which does improve the decks consistency.

The games I lost were almost all when my opponent was able to burn a zone on turn 2. When given the opportunity to spend the third turn continuing to build resources and developments, the deck was nearly perfect. There were also two games where he got TWO DE scouts in play on his first turn.

Also, I'll edit my earlier claim and say that there are several ways to have 9 resources for the start of your third turn, and some ways to have more than that, but having exactly 9 occurred more times than not. 9 seems to be the perfect number though, as it allows you to Flames+Wake (with D/H banner in play), or Flames+4-cost support. Or if you need to: 4-cost support+Gifts, into Wake OR Reap for 5.

I won a game in which I never played a City Gates. I won a game in which I never played a Contested Stronghold. I won a game in which I never played an Abandoned Mine. I won a game in which I never played a Reap What's Sown. I won a game in which I never played Wake the Mountain. And those cards are the CORE of your resources and card drawing. So it's nice to know that the deck can function without seeing one specific card.

I also REALLY like Flames over Judgement. It takes only three slots instead of six, and it's more consistent for later game when you're going off. Some times you can't wipe every zone with a late game Judgment, but Flames guarantees that all the indirect damage is going to their capital.

Some hints to playing WITH this deck:

-You will most likely mulligan if you have neither Abandoned Mine nor Reap in your first seven.

-Bolt Thrower, Banish, Disdain and extra copies of Reap are your usual, early-turn developments.

-You really do want to play all of your supports to the Kingdom. Sometimes if I have to Reap early for 4 or 5, I'll follow that up with an Alliance or Temple to the Quest, but most games finish with nothing ever being played there

-You don't need to get the Bolt Thrower out early and whittle away at their HP's. You usually win the turn after you play it - sometimes the same turn you play it.

I also just wanted to say that I agree with Cyberfunk about Rip+Bloodthirster. The versatility of this combo is ridiculous! Sometimes he swings for 5 (or 7). Sometimes he blocks and eats your opponents entire Battlefield. Of course he's got a slightly better version of Mob Up built right in (Mob Up only works for combat damage). And my favorite... develop him first turn in your Quest, then Rip him in your Zero Phase (or Kingdom if you didn't have the leftover) to draw five extra cards second turn. Also, once your opponent finds out about him, you can bluff by developing something else and leaving a resource open for their turn.

I believe the versatility of this combination allows you find the 6 slots to maindeck it, while, to me and my playgroup, Mob Up is a sideboard card.

Interestingly, Rip/Bloodthrister is a perfect fit in Orc control with Troll Vomit. With all the cost effective Destruction units like Clan Moulder's Elite and Spider Riders, you can setup a Troll Vomit, some cheap units and swing for a burn.

Can't comment on the deck as I don't have Assault on Ulthuan... yet...

how can I use at best "Reap What's Sown"?

thanks for help

this deck just kinda highlights my thead from a while ago about the utility of mob up! i can see the bloodthirster rip combo being amazing, i have used it myself but given my primary deck is my skeaven deck i feel that mob is the better choice because i rarely go beyond turn 4, altho having said that a bloodthirster in my D/E deck mabe utterly devastating when comboed with altar of khaine

deviant-dj said:

I don't know if you are aware but you can only use Altar of Khaine on units that are destroyed. Since bloodthirster makes you sac a unit, any units fed to bloodthirster are not able to be retrieved with Altar of Khaine's power.