7 minutes ago, Ccwebb said:

I am really confused, why are the TIE/B suddenly a thing? The bomber and unguided mussels have been around. You can still only fit 4 in a squad, maybe squeeze Howl in there if the bombs are stripped.

This combo didn’t work in roUnd 1, why is it working so well in rd 2?

Barrage Rockets: 3 red. 4 charges, don't have to burn a focus to change die results hard baked into the weapon. Half point cost markup over Unguided Rockets based on 1.0 point costs.

Bomber(TIE/SA): With reload, while it is red, can keep the charges topped off for multiple passes. Bombs and mines can be dropped in the same way as 1.0 Sol Sixxa did (Sol Sixxa had the 1 turns added). Range 1 ruler centered on the edges of the bomb token is about a 5 straight in diameter. All bombs have multiple charges and are no longer one shot without extra munitions. They also cost roughly half as much as they did 1.0.

It is a very potent platform now.

43 minutes ago, Lightrock said:

You did miss a few things actually:

1. Blindly going 4 straight into boost is suicidal if bombers go 4 straight themselves, so X-wings won't ever do it.

2. After the intial joust Xwings will struggle to avoid the inevitable fireworks left behind by the bombers.

3. While all-bomber lists do happen, many folks bring something else too. For example, I like bringing along a TrajSim Punisher with proton bombs and seismic charges just in case someone gets any ideas about swarming my bombers.

I specified that the X-wings moved second.

They will have no problems avoiding the bombs. They have fast moves and boost available.

56 minutes ago, Biophysical said:

They will have no problems avoiding the bombs. They have fast moves and boost available.

They should avoid SOME of the bombs. I'm not sure about ALL of them though. 4 or 5 bombs can cover a big area.

The bombers still have the edge in this matchup. I'd say the best bet for the x-wings is to pack proton torpedoes and higher Initiative to maybe nuke a bomber off the table before it can fire. But at that point, you're probably looking at a 3 x-wing list, and even if you manage to bring it down to 4 bombers off the bat, there's still a high probability that you are losing an x-wing to the return shots...

Just remember that late game bombers are bad

Can't kturn and fire rockets, if they run out of charges their reload is HORRIBLE

Also no shields = crit city

I've rountinely spent multiple charges on barrage rerolls (when necessary) and sat salvos, because I know I'm ****** late game

2 hours ago, Tvboy said:

Selling $50 conversion kits to the hardcore players and then banning the majority of their contents from high level competitive play would be a pretty great scam.

How so? Was it ever actually advertised anywhere that unreleased conversion kit content would be tournament-legal?

Personally, I had always figured tournaments would be Core and released Waves only, while the conversion kits were meant for casual games (or maybe a very few specific, special tournaments).

47 minutes ago, JJ48 said:

How so? Was it ever actually advertised anywhere that unreleased conversion kit content would be tournament-legal?

Personally, I had always figured tournaments would be Core and released Waves only, while the conversion kits were meant for casual games (or maybe a very few specific, special tournaments).

It was also never stated it wouldn't be. Given that every single X-wing product released until this point has either been tournament legal or clearly advertised as not (epic ships), it's a reasonable assumption that, unless otherwise stated, new releases are tournament legal.

9 minutes ago, LordBlades said:

It was also never stated it wouldn't be. Given that every single X-wing product released until this point has either been tournament legal or clearly advertised as not (epic ships), it's a reasonable assumption that, unless otherwise stated, new releases are tournament legal.

Exactly. New releases are tournament legal.

It's been perfectly obvious from day one that the conversion kits are not the full releases of the ships within.

EDIT: I'm not trying to say that conversions definitely won't be legal, nor that it is unreasonable that some people assumed they would be. I just think that acting as if that's the only reasonable assumption, and that anything less must involve dishonesty, is going a bit far.

10 minutes ago, JJ48 said:

Exactly. New releases are tournament legal.

It's been perfectly obvious from day one that the conversion kits are not the full releases of the ships within.

They are however new FFG product so, based on everything FFG has done so far, there was no reason to assume they wouldn't be tournament legal. What products has FFG released before that weren't tournament legal and not clearly stated as such?

TBH, FFG is somewhat in a corner currently:

-if they do major tournaments 2.0 only, they risk annoying veterans that bought conversion kits. Also, how would that work with 1-ship factions (First Order and later Republic/Separatists)?

- If they include everything in major tournaments, they risk annoying new players, who now need to hunt out of print ships to compete. Also, it would be tricky to balance considering the vastly different number of ships per faction.

I've flown Bombers a lot and I think people are exaggerating the danger. Yes, you have can't fly at them directly. You use bait and switch. Start some ships jousting and then peel off before engagement, but have some ships flanking. That way you doing have to suicide a ship or two straight at them.

The bombs can be predicted. Just spend every round thinking they will bomb. I've used 1.0 Tie Bombers to good effect and I recognize that they are even better now. It's still possible to beat them.

Jonus is the weak link. If you can take him down, you are doing well. He is 6 hull with no shields. Crit him if you can. Do what you can with him Tractor Beams. Ion. Your own munitions. It can happen.

If you aren't wary, you can lose a game to the Tie Bomber swarm. Just learn from it and move on.

I think 3 ship lists are under powered in 2nd Ed. Don't take a 3 ship list.

1 minute ago, LordBlades said:

They are however new FFG product so, based on everything FFG has done so far, there was no reason to assume they wouldn't be tournament legal. What products has FFG released before that weren't tournament legal and not clearly stated as such?

<shrug> I don't participate in tournaments, so I don't generally follow tournament legality. I also never really followed FFG at all prior to them getting L5R. If you say it's unprecedented then I believe you, but it still seems pretty clear to me that the conversion kits are not normal products.

4 minutes ago, LordBlades said:

TBH, FFG is somewhat in a corner currently:

-if they do major tournaments 2.0 only, they risk annoying veterans that bought conversion kits. Also, how would that work with 1-ship factions (First Order and later Republic/Separatists)?

Considering the Prequel Trilogy stuff has nothing to convert, they're kind of a completely separate issue. Though, it'll certainly be interesting to see how they resolve it.

As far as I recall, there was never anything specified one way or the other concerning conversion kits in tournaments- the thing I remember is FFG stating how it would be possible to restrict ships/cards in tournaments using the squad builder, with the example being restricting a tournament to just Wave 1 ships.

4 hours ago, HolySorcerer said:

dicking around the rocks for three turns then flying straight into them is still jousting.

Facts

5 hours ago, blade_mercurial said:

Its not the least bit suicidal. Let me help ya with the math:

4 straight +1 base length (the x-wing) = 5

4 straight +1 base length (the TIE bomber) = 5

5 + 5 = 10

According to the rule of 11, the total of both ship maneuvers (and their bases) must equal 11 in order for ships to get shots.

10 does not equal 11...

And keep in mind the x-wings have a good chance of choosing initiative because they are more likely to have a bid (they won't take it if they're smart). So they will know what move the Bombers did when it comes time to decide whether to keep the wings open or closed (and whether they need to boost or not).

EDIT: Hmmm I was pretty certain Bio said Xwings go first. Maybe just tired then.

Still, if I knew I go first, I'd just make sure there's an obstacle straight ahead of me but relatively far on the opponent's side. It prevents rushes like this easily enough.

To build an equivalent to this squad in 1.0 (Unguided, Seismics, EM) would cost 112pts, and that ignores:

1) Bomber dial meaningfully buffed

2) Nimble Bomber ship ability added

3) Proton Bombs not old Seismic Charges

4) Unguided Rockets didn't interact with Jonus

9 minutes ago, SOTL said:

To build an equivalent to this squad in 1.0 (Unguided, Seismics, EM) would cost 112pts, and that ignores:

1) Bomber dial meaningfully buffed

2) Nimble Bomber ship ability added

3) Proton Bombs not old Seismic Charges

4) Unguided Rockets didn't interact with Jonus

A very rough equivalent. If fed a focus somehow to enable barrage rockets to fire the bomber can us a lock to mod the dice instead of burning charges. Unguided Rockets could only be modded by a focus.

That was quick... :-(

3 hours ago, JJ48 said:

Considering the Prequel Trilogy stuff has nothing to convert, they're kind of a completely separate issue.

Sheathepede, ARC-170 and Firespray-31 disagree with that statement.

2 minutes ago, Jiron said:

Sheathepede, ARC-170 and Firespray-31 disagree with that statement.

Arc and Sheathepede will need new paint jobs if that's the case.

37 minutes ago, SOTL said:

To build an equivalent to this squad in 1.0 (Unguided, Seismics, EM) would cost 112pts, and that ignores:

1) Bomber dial meaningfully buffed

2) Nimble Bomber ship ability added

3) Proton Bombs not old Seismic Charges

4) Unguided Rockets didn't interact with Jonus

Granted, in 1.0 no one would fly this squad at a competitive level even for 100 points because turrets would outfly and grind it down.

2.0 was meant to allow squads like this to be competitive and I suppose it kinda works except bombers are just too efficient.

Then again, when it comes to jousting something is always the most efficient. There's a reason why in 1.0 academy pilot was used as a baseline for efficiency for a very, very long time.

25 minutes ago, Jiron said:

Sheathepede, ARC-170 and Firespray-31 disagree with that statement.

Y-wings and Z-95s were also used by the Republic, though I wouldn't be too surprised if they made them different. Also Scurrg; we're pretty liable to get Republic Nym.

We knew there would be a generic filled list that would prove more efficient than others, is that list 4 bombers + Jonus? We'll see, it definitely looks scary on paper, but it relies on having focus so let's see how it will turn out once more refined list than the current random junk will fill the tables

8 hours ago, Jeff Wilder said:

I did go 3-0 with Barrage Band (Kelstral, Jonus, Scimitar x2, Nu), but all of the games were actually competitive, and could have swung the other way. Is it really that strong?

This.

I don’t think in 2.0 I will ever find a list I am more confident in than my own player ability which is a massive turn around to 1.0.

All games are just so close. Half points means that as the game is drawing to a close one side is trying to close it out on points while the other is lobbing 4th down bombs to turn it around, but both players are in the game.

Never assume in one game against a list, especially a jousting list, that you can’t do better next time.

I faced bombers for the first time yesterday when we opened our kits. My opponent had been testing them for weeks. I’ve been mostly playing with Aces and Punishers. Finally having 2 medium bases I put my Deathrain, Redline, Fel list on the board. We didn’t time the game. I think it would have been pretty interesting to do so to see where the half points were. The game was incredibly tactical, massively close, and while I felt like I had the upper hand most of the game I feel like at time it could have been a game I lost. Untimed I was able to take it out. But it could easily go a different way.

I think the bombers are good. But I don’t know if they are broken, and I’m still not sure they can joust the named TIE swarm.

3 hours ago, SOTL said:

To build an equivalent to this squad in 1.0 (Unguided, Seismics, EM) would cost 112pts, and that ignores:

1) Bomber dial meaningfully buffed

2) Nimble Bomber ship ability added

3) Proton Bombs not old Seismic Charges

4) Unguided Rockets didn't interact with Jonus

That 1.0 squad was bad, though. You're not taking a good 1.0 squad and translating it to 2.0.

13 minutes ago, Biophysical said:

That 1.0 squad was bad, though. You're not taking a good 1.0 squad and translating it to 2.0.

It was bad in 1.0 because it had none of those things and TLT existed.

I want to be wrong. But I spent yesterday watching the guy who decimated half of Europe with Triple Jumpmasters sweep the day 10-0 with TIE Bombers without only one of the games even being particularly close.

There's so much more to these bombers than a dumb joust, just like there was so much more to the Triple Jumps.